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Old 2008-08-01, 17:38   Link #3201
Comartemis
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All the more a reason not to go off on a wild tangent and blindly slap a SSS label on her. We don't know what she's capable off.
End of the World struck me as being about SS-rank or so, considering that it supposedly defies the laws of thermodynamics (if wikipedia can be trusted on the subject); sounds like it has quite a bit more punch than Hayate's Atem des Eis to me, or at the least is a more focused version of it. And Eva almost casually snapped that thing off without breaking a sweat. Maybe she's closer to SS+ with Magia Erebea being something like her Limit Break? That'd still make her one of the strongest mages in the known multiverse by a fair margin, considering that the power difference between ranks seems to increase after you hit AAA.

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The fact that the TSAB's generic devices are Raising Heart type devices pretty much confirms Raising Heart was a standard TSAB device prior to her powerups, methinks.
True... but I can't shake the feeling that there's something special about RH that we haven't seen yet. Sort of like how Kha insinuated that there was a fragment of papa Testarossa hanging around in Bardiche in Rebuilt, I think there's some hidden depth to Raising Heart that has yet to be revealed. She's the only device in the whole series to require an activation incantation, yet she's apparently just like hundreds of similar weapons in the TSA? Surely not every intelligent device not wielded by a main character needs an activation code? Something doesn't add up here, and I don't think the cause is one of 7Arcs' infamous inconsistencies.
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Old 2008-08-01, 17:45   Link #3202
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post

No, not really. Okay, no problems here, I was a bit concerned that this skill would allow mooks to block Starlight Breakers, but that's been ironed out.

.
Theoretically, a mook COULD tank Starlight Breaker... but in order to manage the resulting waste heat... the mook would have to have antifreeze IVed into their bloodstream, and be wearing armor made entirely out of radiators.

Of course, someone set up like that would be ineffective at any actual combat. Being unable to really move and all...

EDIT: Funny image:

This would probably look like a megaman stage boss.

Dunnnn nun nun nunnn!!!

[RADIATOR MAN!]
"Your magic can't hurt me!"

doo do... dooo do... do do dobidedooooo!!!!!
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Old 2008-08-01, 18:01   Link #3203
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Radiator man: "Your magic can't hurt me!"

Nanoha:
"... But that suit looks really difficult to move around in."

Radiator man:
"Er..."

Nanoha:
I'll just be moving on to that door behind you. Nice talking to you!

Radiator man:
"..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
End of the World struck me as being about SS-rank or so, considering that it supposedly defies the laws of thermodynamics (if wikipedia can be trusted on the subject); sounds like it has quite a bit more punch than Hayate's Atem des Eis to me, or at the least is a more focused version of it. And Eva almost casually snapped that thing off without breaking a sweat. Maybe she's closer to SS+ with Magia Erebea being something like her Limit Break? That'd still make her one of the strongest mages in the known multiverse by a fair margin, considering that the power difference between ranks seems to increase after you hit AAA.
SS-rank when she goes all out sounds good. Heck, even we don't know what an SS-rank at full power is like, Hayate never did do something beyond S-rank.

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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
True... but I can't shake the feeling that there's something special about RH that we haven't seen yet. Sort of like how Kha insinuated that there was a fragment of papa Testarossa hanging around in Bardiche in Rebuilt, I think there's some hidden depth to Raising Heart that has yet to be revealed. She's the only device in the whole series to require an activation incantation, yet she's apparently just like hundreds of similar weapons in the TSA? Surely not every intelligent device not wielded by a main character needs an activation code? Something doesn't add up here, and I don't think the cause is one of 7Arcs' infamous inconsistencies.
Bah, the incantation was made back when Nanoha was still a traditional Magical Girl show, we shouldn't take the incantation seriously (especially since Nanoha dropped it after, what, one use?) I'd rather not be stuck with the headache explaining why a modern day standart device was wielded by bodyguards 300 years ago.

Yeah, I am totally lacking that feeling you have.
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Old 2008-08-01, 18:15   Link #3204
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SS-rank when she goes all out sounds good. Heck, even we don't know what an SS-rank at full power is like, Hayate never did do something beyond S-rank.
Actually come to think of it I'd rather Eva's rank remain an unknown, part of the reason I labeled her a SSS-rank to start with; she's awe-inspiring because she doesn't appear to have any limits to her power, and I'd rather not lose that by putting a rank on her and saying "these are her limits". Even SS-rank compares her to Hayate ("synthetic" SS-rank, which I take to mean that she has the power but not the skill to back it up), where SSS puts her in a league of her own, which is exactly where I think she belongs. Maybe Kenny will get around to showing us Eva at full power sometime in the future, but until then I guess 'unknown' will have to do for Eva's rank.

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Bah, the incantation was made back when Nanoha was still a traditional Magical Girl show, we shouldn't take the incantation seriously (especially since Nanoha dropped it after, what, one use?) I'd rather not be stuck with the headache explaining why a modern day standart device was wielded by bodyguards 300 years ago.
Fair enough, but at some point I intend to delve into RH's history; she may not be a Belkan weapon, but she's been around the block a few times, so to speak.
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Old 2008-08-01, 18:19   Link #3205
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Gotta agree with Keroko.

Also, i have got the feeling Belka MAD themselves. I may be wrong, but they seemed *way* above midchilda in tech, and it seemed that mid didn't really have much solid facts on things like the cartirdge system of belkan style, hence the new "Belkan" style.

Remmeber that things like Genetically modified people were common in Belka, and there seem to be some type of "Ancient Wisdom" thing of Belka theme going on.

As for the activation code, it should be like a login password in windows. Not useful for someone like Nanoha whose affinity for RH is extremely high.

Com: Actually, SS-Rank remains unknown too. If you are going to have Eva being unknown because we don't see upper lmit to her awesomeness, you'll have to do the same for Eva. Heck, we haven't Seen *Nanoha* go all out in a Non-AMF environment.

Last edited by Arkeus; 2008-08-01 at 18:21. Reason: new post!
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Old 2008-08-01, 18:34   Link #3206
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Nah, Belka and Mid were about equal in technology (otherwise we'd have a hard time explaining why in the world Mid even won the war) its just that the focuss has been a bit much on the Belkan side lately. I myself would love to see a Lost Logia weapon of Mid's side of the war being found.

Mid did have knowledge on the Belkan system (they even had a serial number for the Cartridge system) they just didn't use it as much. Also, Belkan doesn't mean you automatically use Cartridges. Neither Carim, Acous, Hayate, Shamal, Zafira or Zest use Cartridges.

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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
Actually come to think of it I'd rather Eva's rank remain an unknown, part of the reason I labeled her a SSS-rank to start with; she's awe-inspiring because she doesn't appear to have any limits to her power, and I'd rather not lose that by putting a rank on her and saying "these are her limits". Even SS-rank compares her to Hayate ("synthetic" SS-rank, which I take to mean that she has the power but not the skill to back it up), where SSS puts her in a league of her own, which is exactly where I think she belongs. Maybe Kenny will get around to showing us Eva at full power sometime in the future, but until then I guess 'unknown' will have to do for Eva's rank.
That's a good decision. Unknown untill we get a clear chart on things.

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Fair enough, but at some point I intend to delve into RH's history; she may not be a Belkan weapon, but she's been around the block a few times, so to speak.
Well, I don't particularely like this course of action, but there's nothing to prove otherwise either...

Ah, what the heck. This thread could use some spicy conspiracy theories. Show me what you got!
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Old 2008-08-01, 18:38   Link #3207
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Keroko: did it ever say midchilda won the war, or that they were the only two participants?

Also, they did have a serial number for the "Cartridge" part, but no idea on how to implement it (it took them a week to do so in a lesser way). It seemed to me it was all theorotical, and once the Knights came and information was shared, that they gave information on Belkan magic (hence the "Neo-Belkan" style).

Or at least that's what i got.^^

This is all conjectures, after all.
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Old 2008-08-01, 18:54   Link #3208
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Keroko: did it ever say midchilda won the war, or that they were the only two participants?
Concidering Mid is now the mainly used magic style through the multiverse and Mid is responsible for the TSAB, I say its a safe bet that Mid won the war.

Whether there were only two participants, I don't know.

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Originally Posted by Arkeus View Post
Also, they did have a serial number for the "Cartridge" part, but no idea on how to implement it (it took them a week to do so in a lesser way). It seemed to me it was all theorotical, and once the Knights came and information was shared, that they gave information on Belkan magic (hence the "Neo-Belkan" style).
Well, yeah, it took them a week to implement it, because both Raising Heart and Bardiche were Mid Childan devices. They weren't build with the idea of Cartidge system in mind. I'm no mechanic, but that means they had to virtually re-design both devices! I'm amazed they did that and made it work, in just one week.

But Belkan magic was used by Mid long before Nanoha and co. Zest and Quint are only two examples of Belkan users, and Vice was a Mid-user using Cartridges.

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This is all conjectures, after all.
*nod* True.
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Old 2008-08-01, 19:07   Link #3209
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But Belkan magic was used by Mid long before Nanoha and co. Zest and Quint are only two examples of Belkan users, and Vice was a Mid-user using Cartridges.



*nod* True.
Really? I always took it that they were part of the wave of users emerging after the Book of Darkness incident.

Also, isn't Belka user super rare before? Hence the remark about Carim and her brother having Rare Belkan Magic.

yeah, i may be wrong, but i really think Belka's Defeat was more complicated (and that the raddle had a role to play, hence the "Destroying of a world" remark).
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Old 2008-08-01, 19:24   Link #3210
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Ah, what the heck. This thread could use some spicy conspiracy theories. Show me what you got!
Nothing yet on RH’s history, I’m afraid, but I think I’ve finally got a solid lock on the course of events of the first season of Comacanon.

Spoiler for Remix Season 1.5:
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Old 2008-08-01, 20:27   Link #3211
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uh?

Spoiler:
Spoiler for Negiha:


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Spoiler:
I felt Subaru's dialogue was a little strange for her personality. Instead of "Big rolly ball types" I'd say "Gimongous ball types" but I guess its just me.

And that quote has to be made into a plaque. XD

This post has done Arisa and Sein justice. Sankt Kaiser approves.

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Spoiler for yes:

Please reread properly, Kha.
Yeeeeap

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I still fully enjoy posting here, maybe I'll start bringing somewhat of the 'crazy' back into the thread when I fire up the new version of Uomo (poor guy gets Rebuilt so many times ) This time with more Nove and even somewhat of a trap-disarnament. That, and I'll finaly start writing kinship, a story fully focussed on the Sentoukijin in Nanoha.
I just wish I got the time to post something significant. ><

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Week. And there hardly is enough time to see him do anything, methinks.
Spoiler for Kha's Plague:
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Old 2008-08-01, 20:49   Link #3212
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Other comments later, but...

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Nah, Belka and Mid were about equal in technology (otherwise we'd have a hard time explaining why in the world Mid even won the war) its just that the focuss has been a bit much on the Belkan side lately. I myself would love to see a Lost Logia weapon of Mid's side of the war being found.
Fufufufufufu...... >>>:3

That's one of the points of GenerationS in the first place, since the enemy this time are all pure Mid-Childan style and tech (aside from Grandis). Naturally, Lost Logia will be involved. =3
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Old 2008-08-01, 21:31   Link #3213
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
End of the World struck me as being about SS-rank or so, considering that it supposedly defies the laws of thermodynamics (if wikipedia can be trusted on the subject); sounds like it has quite a bit more punch than Hayate's Atem des Eis to me, or at the least is a more focused version of it. And Eva almost casually snapped that thing off without breaking a sweat. Maybe she's closer to SS+ with Magia Erebea being something like her Limit Break? That'd still make her one of the strongest mages in the known multiverse by a fair margin, considering that the power difference between ranks seems to increase after you hit AAA.
I think you're vastly overestimating Eva's power. If anything, [End of the World] is sort of similar to [Eternal Coffin] both in power of the spell, the target size and the event that required the casting. Although Chrono is skilled in temperature manipulation magics, and has the Durendal to help him, he is just 15 years old at that time and only have a few years worth of experience.

Eva on the other hand has no such fancy devices but her affinity is Darkness and Ice and she has at minimum 400 years of experience. If not for the difference in Magic Types, I would say Eva is WEAKER then Chrono when Unseal without using Magia Erebea. Using that however is probably sort of like Blaster Mode for Nanoha, massive powerup but dangerous draw backs.

In the end, I believe Eva is about a S- ranker at best, Stronger than Chrono but not as strong as Nanoha.
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Old 2008-08-01, 21:39   Link #3214
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I think you're vastly overestimating Eva's power. If anything, [End of the World] is sort of similar to [Eternal Coffin] both in power of the spell, the target size and the event that required the casting. Although Chrono is skilled in temperature manipulation magics, and has the Durendal to help him, he is just 15 years old at that time and only have a few years worth of experience.

Eva on the other hand has no such fancy devices but her affinity is Darkness and Ice and she has at minimum 400 years of experience. If not for the difference in Magic Types, I would say Eva is WEAKER then Chrono when Unseal without using Magia Erebea. Using that however is probably sort of like Blaster Mode for Nanoha, massive powerup but dangerous draw backs.

In the end, I believe Eva is about a S- ranker at best, Stronger than Chrono but not as strong as Nanoha.
That's pretty much my assessment as well, though I've gotten into heated debates with some about it too...
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Old 2008-08-01, 21:55   Link #3215
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Meh, I'd say Evangeline is in Signum territory- tons of experience, massive CC skill and attack power (especially with Magia Erebea) and she can still pull out ridiculously strong nukes if she really needs to... she just doesn't do it much 'cause it's less fun.

And then she has her regeneration.
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Old 2008-08-01, 22:02   Link #3216
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I think you're vastly overestimating Eva's power. If anything, [End of the World] is sort of similar to [Eternal Coffin] both in power of the spell, the target size and the event that required the casting. Although Chrono is skilled in temperature manipulation magics, and has the Durendal to help him, he is just 15 years old at that time and only have a few years worth of experience.

Eva on the other hand has no such fancy devices but her affinity is Darkness and Ice and she has at minimum 400 years of experience. If not for the difference in Magic Types, I would say Eva is WEAKER then Chrono when Unseal without using Magia Erebea. Using that however is probably sort of like Blaster Mode for Nanoha, massive powerup but dangerous draw backs.

In the end, I believe Eva is about a S- ranker at best, Stronger than Chrono but not as strong as Nanoha.
The problem with this is that you're operating on the assumption that End of the World is Eva's most powerful spell, which doesn't seem likely considering that she wasn't even remotely tired from casting it, which you would think a "most powerful" spell would do. As a matter of fact, not even seconds later she instantly regenerates from having a stone spike shoved through her chest, something which she says "tires her". Yet she doesn't appear to be fatigued or tired at all even from that.

For all we know, End of the World could be the weakest of Eva's high-end spells; there are simply too many question marks that come up when the specifics of Eva's power level gets discussed. I'm having enough problems trying to figure the rest of the Negima cast into the pecking order of Nanoha's power levels, so for the sake of maintaining the status quo (the mentor with no equal), Eva's spot at the top of the dog pile is reserved until I see evidence that she actually has limits when unsealed and fighting for real, which will be difficult to acquire considering that she's never fought all-out.
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Old 2008-08-01, 22:07   Link #3217
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Nah, Belka and Mid were about equal in technology (otherwise we'd have a hard time explaining why in the world Mid even won the war) its just that the focuss has been a bit much on the Belkan side lately. I myself would love to see a Lost Logia weapon of Mid's side of the war being found.

Ah, what the heck. This thread could use some spicy conspiracy theories. Show me what you got!
What i can think of on those two parts of the quote is that Raising Heart was a Lost Logia Weapon Developed During the war- perhaps even earlier- and it was probably planned to be used against a Cradle-Class Ship.

But that's me

*rummages thru his mental vault for ideas*
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Old 2008-08-01, 22:09   Link #3218
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The problem with this is that you're operating on the assumption that End of the World is Eva's most powerful spell, which doesn't seem likely considering that she wasn't even remotely tired from casting it, which you would think a "most powerful" spell would do. As a matter of fact, not even seconds later she instantly regenerates from having a stone spike shoved through her chest, something which she says "tires her". Yet she doesn't appear to be fatigued or tired at all even from that.

For all we know, End of the World could be the weakest of Eva's high-end spells; there are simply too many question marks that come up when the specifics of Eva's power level gets discussed. I'm having enough problems trying to figure the rest of the Negima cast into the pecking order of Nanoha's power levels, so for the sake of maintaining the status quo (the mentor with no equal), Eva's spot at the top of the dog pile is reserved until I see evidence that she actually has limits when unsealed and fighting for real.
I never said its her most powerful spell AT ALL. And regeneration is a different case altogether. What you are doing is basing her power based on what's totally unknown. If that's the case I can also theory craft that Starlight Breaker is Nanoha's weakest high level spell. When Eva has shown even greater power, its not too late to revise up her power.

Edit: About regeneration, Eva is a vampire with high regenerative abilities that is part of her vampirism and not connected to her magic. I think you forgot that Nanoha, a HUMAN survived a strike through the chest as well on a mission with Vita, without regeneration. If anything, Nanoha surviving it is a greater feat then Eva.
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Old 2008-08-01, 22:23   Link #3219
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What you are doing is basing her power based on what's totally unknown.
But it's not a total unknown. If we go by your assumption that End of the World is only on par with Eternal Coffin, then we know that Eva is capable of using spells in the S-to-S+ range. We also know from observation that she can cast one such spell without even starting to breath very hard, indicating that she could probably cast several such spells in quick succession before needing to take a breather; exactly how many "several" indicates is open to debate at the moment.

Taking these things into account, and accounting for her use and probable mastery of Magia Erebea, I'd pin Eva as being--at the minimum, mind you--somewhere between S+ and SS+. And that's not even accounting for her physical combat skills and other vampiric powers.

Quote:
About regeneration, Eva is a vampire with high regenerative abilities that is part of her vampirism and not connected to her magic.
No, but magic is connected to a person's physical health; using magic tires you out, and Eva indicates that regenerating tires her as well. Yet she cast a high-power spell and regenerated back-to-back without expressing any kind of fatigue.
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Old 2008-08-01, 22:49   Link #3220
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But it's not a total unknown. If we go by your assumption that End of the World is only on par with Eternal Coffin, then we know that Eva is capable of using spells in the S-to-S+ range. We also know from observation that she can cast one such spell without even starting to breath very hard, indicating that she could probably cast several such spells in quick succession before needing to take a breather; exactly how many "several" indicates is open to debate at the moment.

Taking these things into account, and accounting for her use and probable mastery of Magia Erebea, I'd pin Eva as being--at the minimum, mind you--somewhere between S+ and SS+. And that's not even accounting for her physical combat skills and other vampiric powers.


No, but magic is connected to a person's physical health; using magic tires you out, and Eva indicates that regenerating tires her as well. Yet she cast a high-power spell and regenerated back-to-back without expressing any kind of fatigue.
I don't see Chrono breathing hard either casting eternal coffin. Also Hayate only got tired after casting several Hręsvelgr which is a S ranked attack as well.

And Ranks have huge gaps in the higher tiers. So Eva even with Magia Erebea and physical combat skills (Chrono also has Physical combats skills) and other Vampiric powers, which iirc, is only flight, no weakness to sunlight, not aging and regeneration, is still at best only a S- ranker at best.

You can theory craft on unknowns to your heart's content but its at best theory and at worst wild speculations on your part. I rather theory craft on known data instead of almost pure unknown data. Its hard for you to convince me and maybe others because you don't really have anything at all to back your claims of her abilities.
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