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Old 2008-10-02, 13:30   Link #4041
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
Wow, Goose actually approves of something I'm doing?

*Comar watches the Four Horsemen ride through Outer Cadia*
It's more like I approve of brother sister incest on general principles. >:3 Hence Franz/Naomi. In my heart burns a torch for all brother/sister pairings.

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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
Okay that's great Sheba. Apparently I can't plan and explain my character's status in a story based on tropes and general ideas. Good to know. Now do you have something useful to say?
If you would pause from your instinctive reaction to oppose everything Sheba says, you would realise that he's telling the truth. Badass isn't something that's claimed, but something that's earned. Take the Badass of the Week webpage. Every single entry there is a Badass whose deeds earned the name badass. So how do you go about that?

You write. Grey Knights are badasses not because of Kha's Church Knight khrack but because Ben Coulter writes badass. Medal of Honor winners are badass not because of the Medal, but because of their deeds.

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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Badass tends to be a term flung on a whim or forced on a character in hope to draw praise. Your character is not born badass, it is a quality that have to be earned. Just because you decide to label this character badass doesn't mean that people are going to genuflect in awe over the deeds of your character.

Noland deserved the "Badass" tag because Tempest wrote snippets about Noland and the audience judged.

So yeah, write more story and let the public decide if the character is "ZOMG BADASS".

Normal badasses are:

- Guts from "Berserk" before he got the Armor of the Berserk.

- Grahald Mills from "Red Eyes" when he was a rookie and snapped, taking out a whole platoon on his own.

- Sousuke Sagara when he is not piloting Arbalest.

- Bruce Lee.

Their lives, their deeds, all earned them them the "Badass".
Pretty much, though I should note that Mills also took out 11 powered armor suits and 4 APCs at the same time, and all this with a pistol, rifle, a shotgun and a knife. While wounded and bleeding from an arm injury, head injury, and a leg shot. (Albeit all 3 wounds were grazing shots and really just really nasty scratches.)

To take another example, in my own mind, Franz has always been Crouching Pwn Puppy Hidden Badass, but the pwn puppy part is the one that sticks to the forefront. Why? Because I haven't written anything worthy of designation as badass. I intend to change that. And to do so, I will write.

You can proclaim your charecter to be the greatest badass of the world. But if you don't show it, nobody will care.
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Old 2008-10-02, 13:46   Link #4042
Comartemis
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Both of you misinterpret my usage of the Badass Normal label. To quote TV Tropes, a Badass Normal is "A character who might only be slightly less powerful or skilled than the rest of the cast, but notably has none of the fantastic enhancements, magic or special powers they do."

This has nothing to do with the classic Kamina/Archer/Chuck Norris/Bruce Lee definition of badass (which, I will readily and freely admit, must be earned by one's deeds), it just means (in this case) that the character doesn't have magic but can still fight on a level playing field with the main characters. If you need any proof at all of this, then take a look at the page itself; DBZ's Mr Satan and Ranma 1/2's Kuno Tatewaki, both of whom are joke characters in their respective franchises, are listed under the entry, despite being the absolute polar opposite of anything that could be considered badass in the classical sense.

For that matter, I don't plan on trying to make Iris into a badass, at least not any more than the main cast are. If anyone is going to try for that title, it'll be Alex, who slips and has the occasional hotblooded moment every now and then.

*EDIT*
And just for the record, my title is a Makai Kingdom reference, not a self-applied label of badassery.
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Last edited by Comartemis; 2008-10-02 at 14:00.
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Old 2008-10-02, 13:59   Link #4043
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You're putting too much emphasis on tropes and their interpetation.

Rather than giving a character tropes, let the tropes come to you.

In other words, don't let your character be controlled by tropes. You limit things far too much if you follow a guideline, rather than let the character grow on its own. Tropes are not attributed to characters at the get-go. Rather, they are applied AFTER the character is introduced and seen in action.

It's not up to the creator to designate a character "badass" -- that role is the responsibility of the audience. Rather, it is the duty of the creator to show it, prove it, tell the audience why this character should be a badass. Otherwise, despite the creator's intentions, the character will be labeled as something else.

As Goose said, write it out. Don't just tell us this. We have no proof otherwise.
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Old 2008-10-02, 14:00   Link #4044
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Originally Posted by Tempest Dynasty View Post
Can you hear it? The sounds of catgirls dying by the dozens?

Science need not apply when it comes to fanservice.
Yay dead catgirls \o/

take that Orin~~~

*runs from catgirls-fanboys*
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Old 2008-10-02, 14:03   Link #4045
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
Both of you misinterpret my usage of the Badass Normal label. To quote TV Tropes, a Badass Normal is "A character who might only be slightly less powerful or skilled than the rest of the cast, but notably has none of the fantastic enhancements, magic or special powers they do."

This has nothing to do with the classic Kamina/Archer/Chuck Norris/Bruce Lee definition of badass (which, I will readily and freely admit, must be earned by one's deeds), it just means (in this case) that the character doesn't have magic but can still fight on a level playing field with the main characters. If you need any proof at all of this, then take a look at the page itself; DBZ's Mr Satan and Ranma 1/2's Kuno Tatewaki, both of whom are joke characters in their respective franchises, are listed under the entry, despite being the absolute polar opposite of anything that could be considered badass in the classical sense.

For that matter, I don't plan on trying to make Iris into a badass, at least not any more than the main cast are. If anyone is going to try for that title, it'll be Alex, who slips and has the occasional hotblooded moment every now and then.

*EDIT*
And just for the record, my title is a Makai Kingdom reference, not a self-applied label of badassery.
You misinterpret: we were referring to Alex.

I'd also dispute Iris being a Normal by Nanoverse standards, since, while she can't do magic, she does have other things to make up for it.

Also, Badass Normals are still badass. And such things still need to be earned.

There's a little rule of thumb when it comes to stories: show, not tell, Comar. You've been telling, but no showing.

In fact all of this supposed badassery is really just an Informed Ability. Not as fun when the tropes come to bite you back, is it?
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2008-10-02 at 14:15.
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Old 2008-10-02, 14:07   Link #4046
Comartemis
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Quote:
You misinterpret: we were referring to Alex.
Alex hasn't been a point of discussion on these boards for quite a number of pages, so I have no idea why you'd be talking about him and not Iris.

Quote:
Also, Badass Normals are still badass. And such things still need to be earned.
Obviously you have never met Kuno Tatewaki, who is a bigger and dumber ham by far than Jeremiah Gottwald was when he first appeared in Code Geass. I maintain my stance that being a Badass Normal and actually being a Badass are two completely different things.
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Old 2008-10-02, 14:23   Link #4047
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Originally Posted by Kha View Post
OK let me rephrase, Strike Witches is one where the girls have prominent labora majora through their pantsu, and frankly, that's rather unreal. (Not to mention hurts quite a bit, considering the number of nerve endings near that area. )

Wearing underwear that tight is a health hazard. It's less for girls, but lacerations do happen, and we're talking about girls doing high strain maneuvers 20,000 ft off the ground! It just gets more and more unreal when I think about it...

I don't see that in Fate, and fan-art that do usually irk me, since I prefer to keep my hentai separate from my "main course".

However... I have been considering giving the SW series a shot; the IRC people know of the 2nd Generation Strike Witch Squadron, and more notably the dojiko Kha-chan. She is a tiny girl representing Singapura of the 10-nation alternate history bloc ASEAN Foundation, and she is with a pulse carbine and markerlight. Her Broom was modeled off the F-16 Fighting Falcon, and like the rest of the 2Gen SWs, is jet-propelled, meaning that she has to wear a streamlined G-suit (AKA MORE CLOTHES!!!) to cope with the increased speed.

Her size, speed and agility is better at directing firepower too heavy for herself to carry, like her island nation's particle cannon, but on the ground she's a total klutz.

Most of all, she was created after watching only 5 mins of the series and from reading the sociopolitical background from wikipedia. For a series to inspire that much Khrack on practically nothing, imagine what if I watched the whole thing...

So really, it's just a inner dilemma whether to watch it or not. I am interested, yet some part of me has much doubts.

Some Shiro I am.
Am I the only one who was laughing like mad when reading this? I mean, aside from the fact that Kha started talking docspeak somewhere in the beginning (the amount of cameltoes isn't all that bad anyway, and it's not that unreal anyway) but also because of that fact that Fate would fit in and not look out of place in the slightest. Heck, if anything her modesty increases while wearing a Striker unit:

Spoiler for Fate in a Striker:

Just as with Nanoha, magic is your friend when explaining how the heck they survive such impossible maneuvers/altitudes/impacts etc. If you can accept it from bathsuit wearing Fate, then just apply that same acceptance to Strike Witches.

Seriously. Read these translated scans for some delicious background info on the various characters and settings (also shows that jet engines are already in design) that this world is filled with. After that, I can advice you to go to baka-tsuki and read the translations of the novels (all of the above was done by Selkirk, by the way). If, by then, you are still convinced that the world of Strike Witches is nothing more then fanservice filled junk, then Strike Witches probably isn't a show for you.

Oh, and on a rather unrelated note, little Canadian pilot Wilma Bishop is claimed for both Strike Witches and Nanoha purposes. :3
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Old 2008-10-02, 14:32   Link #4048
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
Alex hasn't been a point of discussion on these boards for quite a number of pages, so I have no idea why you'd be talking about him and not Iris.
You made quite an impression with your "oh so badass" Alex who isn't even done yet. Again, show, not tell.

Shindo really SHOWED Mills being badass. That's the sort of standard I'm aiming for...

Quote:
Obviously you have never met Kuno Tatewaki, who is a bigger and dumber ham by far than Jeremiah Gottwald was when he first appeared in Code Geass. I maintain my stance that being a Badass Normal and actually being a Badass are two completely different things.
If he's not badass, it defeats the point of being a called badass normal. A badass normal is someone who does badass things while being normal for that series universe. If the person is not badass, then they're just normal, and then it begs the question: if they are not badass, why are they called Badass Normals?

I'm aware of Ranma. I've been aware of it for ten years. As for Kuno, note what the Badass Normal page says about him: "For those who know the series, yes, it does hurt to call him badass[Emphasis mine - WG]. It just proves you can be badass and yet not be anything close to cool."

Besides, Zengar is a bigger ham than either Kuno or Jeremiah. But he's cemented his position and reputation as a Badass and Crowning Moment of Awesome. So there.
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Old 2008-10-02, 14:36   Link #4049
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Am I the only one who was laughing like mad when reading this? I mean, aside from the fact that Kha started talking docspeak somewhere in the beginning (the amount of cameltoes isn't all that bad anyway, and it's not that unreal anyway) but also because of that fact that Fate would fit in and not look out of place in the slightest. Heck, if anything her modesty increases while wearing a Striker unit:
Indeed apparently impacting cement walls in a tank-top and catching deadly energy blades with your naked fingers tips arouses no objection in him but flying in your undeies is quite absurd!

Quote:
Just as with Nanoha, magic is your friend when explaining how the heck they survive such impossible maneuvers/altitudes/impacts etc. If you can accept it from bathsuit wearing Fate, then just apply that same acceptance to Strike Witches.
Or tank top Subaru, steel fingers nanoha, etc.

Quote:
Seriously. Read these translated scans for some delicious background info on the various characters and settings (also shows that jet engines are already in design) that this world is filled with. After that, I can advice you to go to baka-tsuki and read the translations of the novels (all of the above was done by Selkirk, by the way). If, by then, you are still convinced that the world of Strike Witches is nothing more then fanservice filled junk, then Strike Witches probably isn't a show for you.
Yes come to the dark side we have cake and girly mecha it's great!

Quote:
Oh, and on a rather unrelated note, little Canadian pilot Wilma Bishop is claimed for both Strike Witches and Nanoha purposes. :3
Orly?
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Old 2008-10-02, 14:39   Link #4050
Comartemis
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
You made quite an impression with your "oh so badass" Alex who isn't even done yet. Again, show, not tell.
Are you ever going to tell me when I claimed Alex to be a badass or are you just going to keep dancing around and not giving me a straight answer?
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Old 2008-10-02, 14:46   Link #4051
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Let's just leave it at this: nicknames and titles are not given to oneself; they are earned and given by one's peers. Badass is a title and thus shall be given to a character should stories and shorts involving said character offer evidence to the readers that the character should be given the title of Badass. Simple. End of debate.
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Old 2008-10-02, 14:59   Link #4052
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Am I the only one who was laughing like mad when reading this? I mean, aside from the fact that Kha started talking docspeak somewhere in the beginning (the amount of cameltoes isn't all that bad anyway, and it's not that unreal anyway) but also because of that fact that Fate would fit in and not look out of place in the slightest. Heck, if anything her modesty increases while wearing a Striker unit:

Spoiler for Fate in a Striker:

Just as with Nanoha, magic is your friend when explaining how the heck they survive such impossible maneuvers/altitudes/impacts etc. If you can accept it from bathsuit wearing Fate, then just apply that same acceptance to Strike Witches.

Seriously. Read these translated scans for some delicious background info on the various characters and settings (also shows that jet engines are already in design) that this world is filled with. After that, I can advice you to go to baka-tsuki and read the translations of the novels (all of the above was done by Selkirk, by the way). If, by then, you are still convinced that the world of Strike Witches is nothing more then fanservice filled junk, then Strike Witches probably isn't a show for you.
Lol, Kha's just being Kha.

Quote:
Oh, and on a rather unrelated note, little Canadian pilot Wilma Bishop is claimed for both Strike Witches and Nanoha purposes. :3
Actually in canon anime she's Lynnette Bishop, using a .55 Boys antitank rifle. You're a little late.

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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
Are you ever going to tell me when I claimed Alex to be a badass or are you just going to keep dancing around and not giving me a straight answer?
If you can't even be bothered to keep track of your own works and what you have said about your own characters, don't expect me to manage your database for you. You've been talking about how awesome and how badass Alex will be, but you've never even written anything yet. You keep changing things and adding more fanwank as the mood suits you, and complain about an incomplete character and expect us to fix your characters and your concepts for you. You've been flinging the term badass around since forever, Comar, so don't try and act like you're the aggrieved party here.

tl;dr version: you've been wanting spoonfeeding and you've been talking big with nothing to show for it. Nobody really cares or listens, Comar.

Stick to your TV Tropes if you want. Us, we're gonna write.

TV Tropes is not the end all be all. It is not a replacement for planning. It is not a replacement for suitability. It is not a replacement for "Show, not tell."

Show, not tell. Even TV Tropes says that. A pity that for all your obsequeince to it you don't seem to have grasped the lesson from that site - or rather, you selectively apply what you learn there.

Well, I guess we'll just havta come back in our next lives to check if there's any progress, or if Alex remains vaporware.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2008-10-02 at 15:13.
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Old 2008-10-02, 15:10   Link #4053
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Actually in canon anime she's Lynnette Bishop, using a .55 Boys antitank rifle. You're a little late.
Your knowledge is insufficient, young padawan. Wilma Bishop is Lynnete's older sister.

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Yes come to the dark side we have cake and girly mecha it's great!
*nod nod* And blueberries, and herbal tea... just don't touch the liver oil. Seriously. Flying through the night blind is better.

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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Orly?
Ayup, all we got going for Wilma so far is that small block of text, there's an awesome story waiting to be written there.

And just think of the possibilities for crossing over these two series.
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Old 2008-10-02, 15:16   Link #4054
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Your knowledge is insufficient, young padawan. Wilma Bishop is Lynnete's older sister.
Lol kks, we can have delicious yuricest thed

Quote:
Ayup, all we got going for Wilma so far is that small block of text, there's an awesome story waiting to be written there.

And just think of the possibilities for crossing over these two series.
The Neuroi are so fucked. And we won't have to listen to ark saying that they're flying so slowly when Witches can outaccelerate fighters.
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Old 2008-10-02, 15:22   Link #4055
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In the interest of avoiding a flamewar or further poisoning the tone of the thread, I'm going to ignore everything you just said and go on about my business.

But just for the record: I have never insisted that Alex was a badass, and I HAVE written a few snippets here and there whether you've noticed them or not, perhaps not so many as the great and mighty "author" Wild Goose or Tempest or Keroko, but I've written a few things. Apparently you're so awesome and wonderful that you didn't deign to look at the works of a lesser writer.

As for changing things, you said yourself that Franz went through something like 50 drafts before you finally got around to making him, so complaining about me changing Alex's concept is hypocrisy, pure and simple. Asking for assistance with a character or a concept is not the same as asking people to do the work for me (which I have not done EVER in my time here), and for your information I AM the aggrieved party here, Goose. You are the one, as usual, who insists on being rude and antagonistic for no readily apparent reason.

Whatever Goose. Respond to this however you like, I've filled my "pissing match with Goose" quota for this week.
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Old 2008-10-02, 15:49   Link #4056
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Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki View Post
Let's just leave it at this: nicknames and titles are not given to oneself; they are earned and given by one's peers. Badass is a title and thus shall be given to a character should stories and shorts involving said character offer evidence to the readers that the character should be given the title of Badass. Simple. End of debate.
Amen to that. Now I can move back to chapter 3 of Journeyers, where I have been struggling to get a scene "right".
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Old 2008-10-02, 16:00   Link #4057
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Amen to that.
Well at least someone read my post. Now if only the flaming poo-flingers would take the hint...

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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Now I can move back to chapter 3 of Journeyers, where I have been struggling to get a scene "right".
I wish you luck cause trying to get those scenes just "right" can be difficult
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Old 2008-10-02, 16:00   Link #4058
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Man... where did you get all your knowladge about strike witches?
I only know what I know from the anime, the manga till chapter 4 and the first 2 chapters of the first novel. (in other words, everything I found translated on the web.)

Maybe I should hang around in the SW thread more often. xD
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Old 2008-10-02, 16:21   Link #4059
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki View Post
Let's just leave it at this: nicknames and titles are not given to oneself; they are earned and given by one's peers. Badass is a title and thus shall be given to a character should stories and shorts involving said character offer evidence to the readers that the character should be given the title of Badass. Simple. End of debate.
Agreed. I'm trying to get him to realise this but it doesn't seem to be working.

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Originally Posted by Comartemis View Post
In the interest of avoiding a flamewar or further poisoning the tone of the thread, I'm going to ignore everything you just said and go on about my business.
... somehow, that doesn't surprise me one bit. I'm rather irritated that you're wilfully ignoring the key points that I'm trying to get across, simply because you feel offended but meh, that's free will.

Quote:
But just for the record: I have never insisted that Alex was a badass, and I HAVE written a few snippets here and there whether you've noticed them or not, perhaps not so many as the great and mighty "author" Wild Goose or Tempest or Keroko, but I've written a few things. Apparently you're so awesome and wonderful that you didn't deign to look at the works of a lesser writer.
You've been talking about how badass Alex would be all the time and how he would pwn, and you were wanking on your martial arts/kanka/magic combo for Alex. I'd consider that to be insisting.

On snippets: the only ones I can recall of the top of my head that you wrote involved Yuuno, and the other was some introspection/introduction by Alex. And in all brutal honesty, if I have to chose between sleep and reading anyone's stuff here, I'll chose sleep. This is the first time in a long time I've been able to have downtime and read on the internet.

Tell ya what: prove yourself. Repost links to your little snippets. If you've got them, then put up and I'll give them another look.

But it's not just me saying that you gotta write and show Alex being a badass. Sure, if it was just me, you might have a point, but everyone is telling you to write. What does that tell you?

(Incidentally, I am an author in real life. I've written a number of articles that have been published in the newspaper, as well as official reports and writeups. So there. )

Quote:
As for changing things, you said yourself that Franz went through something like 50 drafts before you finally got around to making him, so complaining about me changing Alex's concept is hypocrisy, pure and simple.
Actually Franz went through about 5 evolutions as a character, all of which were written down in various fics over a period of 3 years: Airman 1st Class/Chief Petty Officer Jack (eager puppy/competant wingman) ; Lieutenant Jack (defrosting hardass bitter survivor), Leutnant Gans "Haxx" Jaeger (determined guy with ambition and guts and hot blood - as well as being emergency rations), and the final reboot as Franz Jaeger (hot blood with inner depths), with the more recent updating and fleshing out of Franz's origin story counting as a 5th incarnation, I suppose. Difference is that all of these were written down and are more or less the same character evolving over different fics and universes as my style has changed over the last 3 years. The difference between you and me is that while Franz has been evolving in terms of characterisation and style, there's nothing of the like I can see with Alex; you keep changing and reworking him all the time and it causes lots of eyerolls: "Great, what now?"

Franz's evolution has been a gradual process building up and emphasising and de-emphasising aspects of the character. Yours is more "wank concept of the week". (Which is not my words and comes from IRC, but is a rather apt description, IMO.)

Quote:
Asking for assistance with a character or a concept is not the same as asking people to do the work for me (which I have not done EVER in my time here),
Actually, you have; you were wanting help with a world and stuff, Sheba and I were pointing out things that you hadn't considered, and you were getting all hurt and unhappy that we weren't spoonfeeding you and answers and wanting you to think.

Quote:
and for your information I AM the aggrieved party here, Goose. You are the one, as usual, who insists on being rude and antagonistic for no readily apparent reason.
Hmmm. No cursing. No insults. No yelling. Just my own personal observations.

I'm not sure how this counts as being rude and antagonistic.

Also, while you may be feeling aggrieved, I am feeling annoyed and irritated with how you always keep raising blast doors and ignoring whatever I try to say, refusing even to consider that myself, and everyone else who's tried to talk to you, may have a point. You want us to listen to you - but you'll only listen to us when it suits you.

Just like your beloved TV Tropes, which you only use when it suits you.

Quote:
Whatever Goose. Respond to this however you like, I've filled my "pissing match with Goose" quota for this week.
I think this is part of the problem; you see everything like this as a pissing match and a personal attack on you and so react accordingly. Remember Kagerou's advice: learn to roll with the punches.

Besides, while you see this as a pissing match, I see this as spirited debate

...although it means that it's now 5.23AM and I need to wake up at 7.00 am...

According to turmoil, you need to sleep more than 4 hours a night. 4 or less, and you will go insane....
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One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

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Old 2008-10-02, 16:24   Link #4060
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Lol kks, we can have delicious yuricest thed
Considering Wilma's personality is up for grabs, yes, yes we can. I personally imagine her to be a very caring older sister. Random hugs should be commonplace, and would serve to embarrass the shy Lynette.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
The Neuroi are so fucked. And we won't have to listen to ark saying that they're flying so slowly when Witches can outaccelerate fighters.
Breaking the sound barrier, even. It may have been only once, but still.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Previous Segment

Spoiler for Sanfu 3.3:


I'm back and now I'm gone again!

*re-cloaks and exfiltrates from the thread.*
The last few lines were what really made this chapter. Though you have to admit listening to your enemies speech of just what they are planning to do has its uses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlameSparkZ View Post
KISAMA!
I also got an OC based on Yami (she's not a shapeshifter though), with some sublte changes in the character design (like the color of the eyes and hair), personality is almost the same. She's more of a C.C. than Yami though...but still likes to read books :3

*unlocks a door with "NOT SO TOP SECRET" written on it*
*opens it*
Here she is!
*closes door*
*locks it again*

But no worries...she only appears much latter in the story, say...MC089?

*warps away*
Future teammate for Vivio?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyral View Post
Man... where did you get all your knowladge about strike witches?
I only know what I know from the anime, the manga till chapter 4 and the first 2 chapters of the first novel. (in other words, everything I found translated on the web.)

Maybe I should hang around in the SW thread more often. xD
Yes, yes you should.

As for me, I'm a sponge for knowledge on series I take a particular liking to, and read every itty bitty detail of info I can possibly get my hands on. I scour image boards and blogs for new info and read what is translated to excruciating detail. For example, the character chart has far more info then which girl wears what panty, if you look at it more closely.
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