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Old 2009-06-11, 14:35   Link #7301
Jimmy C
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But the thing is, the autoguard is supposed to be just that, auto. It's there to take care of threats that come in too fast for the mage to react to.

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The idea behind Roland chastizing them is that you won't always see the blindsiding attacks coming, and that if you're going to be in a position that's prone to that possibility, you need your defense up, whether you think there's a threat or not.
The way I see it, this would be such a basic lesson in the kind of environment they operate, that Nanoha should have taught it to them long before now. So, if they're caught this much offguard post-Cradle, they're way worse than the series makes them out to be. I don't think you want to be potraying them as that bad.
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Old 2009-06-11, 15:39   Link #7302
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It would seem like such, but I have to disagree because of the main fact that we see them operating in the open without defenses up all the way into the Cradle incident. They just haven't seemed to learn that the Open is not a good place to hang out. Except maybe Tia, but that's because Tia seems to be naturally vulnerable anyway and HAS to hide half the time anyway. But everyone else? Subaru's riding her road, Erio stands in open spots swinging Strada around, and Caro is asking for a sniper to pick her head clean off.

I don't see any improvement in this even during the Cradle fight events.
But then, they're custom tailored to fight more or less in a friendly dominance environment, rather than true Asymetric Warfare. In fact, during the cradle fight, they conveniently had almost no drones to fight and just had to deal with their opposing numbers in more or less duels. A couple dozen drones supporting each Number and they could have all been blindsided by Suppressive Fire while they were dealing with their personal dramas.

Bleh, the Cradle fight in general was a mess. Unit Cohesiveness on both sides broke down for no other reason than to force Duels. A failure wasn't neccissary. It just happened. In fact, I can point out exactly where everything came apart. But that's your average Cimactic Battle for you... especially in Anime. where the last episodes end up scrunching too much into too little space because of the time limit and the right way to do something is often not the first thing thought of.
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Old 2009-06-11, 15:51   Link #7303
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Bleh, the Cradle fight in general was a mess. Unit Cohesiveness on both sides broke down for no other reason than to force Duels. A failure wasn't neccissary. It just happened. In fact, I can point out exactly where everything came apart. But that's your average Cimactic Battle for you... especially in Anime. where the last episodes end up scrunching too much into too little space because of the time limit and the right way to do something is often not the first thing thought of.
*shrug* At least they gave excuses for it. The Aces and Wolkies split up because otherwise each point of interest would be lacking in required firepower, Erio and Caro went after Lutecia to prevent her from vaping the heli (or if we want to sugarcoat it, intercept her and prevent her from ravaging the front line) and Teana didn't even have a choice, she was simply outsmarted.
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Old 2009-06-11, 16:08   Link #7304
AdmiralTigerclaw
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Ah, but where's the excuse for what Otto did, or rather DIDN'T do?

See, Otto broke them up with a shot of Ray Storm. An attack we've already seen to be capable of sustained fire and also capable of leveling a building.

She broke them up, and then slapped a containment on Tia's position and let the other three go to work.

Would it not have been more prudent to slap the barrier down, then drop the building on Tia?
They had the firepower, they had her cornered, and they had no problem doing the badguy bits... But they didn't use it.

So hypotheticly, if Otto had dropped the building on Tiana rather than twiddle her thumbs while the other three got lead around by illusions. Those three could have backed up Evil Ginga (TM), which would have made it impossible for Subaru to make her Astounding Recovery and turnabout on her big sis, what with being out numbered and out gunned four to one and all...

Then it would be those three, plus Evil Ginga (TM) who could have pounced on Erio and Caro, forcing a mind numbing three on one odds against them in open combat.

The Ground Battle would have been over.
Even if Otto still gets taken down by Zaphira and Shamal still. Not withholding firepower in the opening of the fight like that gives enough momentum to carry the battle.

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"I will be neither chivalrous nor sporting. If I have an unstoppable superweapon, I will use it as early and as often as possible instead of keeping it in reserve."


Of course, the Good Guys have to win. But it could have been done so much better, and been more spectacular. (Curse you deadlines! Curse you!)
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Old 2009-06-11, 16:18   Link #7305
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Hind sight is a lovely thing. Even real life falls victim to this. At any rate, Otto was hardly twiddling her thumbs, seeing how she was commanding the drones that were putting pressure on the redshirts.

But yes, the battles could have been done more awesome. They always can.
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Old 2009-06-11, 16:21   Link #7306
AdmiralTigerclaw
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It seems rather obvious to me...

Option 1: Use an attack I know works to drop sixty thousand tons of reinforced concrete on my opponent and get her out of the way.

Option 2: Let my team mates risk it and run around inside an abandoned building with a known ILLUSION USER on the prowl.

Maybe Otto should have watched the Predator Movies. It seems rather Academic.
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Old 2009-06-11, 16:33   Link #7307
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Option 2: Let my team mates risk it and run around inside an abandoned building with a known ILLUSION USER on the prowl.
Excuse me if I correct this:

"Let my team mates risk it and run around inside an abandoned building 3 on 1 with a known ILLUSION USER on the prowl who's illusions, and thereby her greatest advantage in offense and defense, are now useless against our improved cybernetics."

You forgot that they could see through Teana's illusions during that fight. That, and they had her outnumbered. They had every single advantage on their side. Then there is also the little detail that by the time the barrier was raised, her own sisters were already inside as well, and Otto herself was outside the barrier, making it impossible for her to blow the building up.

Option 1 would have risked killing her sisters as well. Option 2 has all the advantages. Otto's decision still looks sound to me.
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Old 2009-06-11, 18:47   Link #7308
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You gotta admit that the "60k tons of concrete" option does have a certain, shall we say, finality to it. Even a really good mage would be hard pressed to do something about a building to the head.

But then I'm just playing devil's advocate here.
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Old 2009-06-11, 18:54   Link #7309
Arkeus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LimitedEternal View Post
You gotta admit that the "60k tons of concrete" option does have a certain, shall we say, finality to it. Even a really good mage would be hard pressed to do something about a building to the head.

But then I'm just playing devil's advocate here.
I agree, though i am pretty sure Otto was under some kind of order to look after the drone and organize them, hence she had to stay hidden.

To go and destroy a building was not the way to do that.
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Old 2009-06-11, 21:32   Link #7310
Jimmy C
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Besides, Ray Storm isn't Heavy Barrel. It may be able to put holes in buildings, but not ones that can bring it down. To demolish a high-rise might have taken so much effort that she'd be unable to handle other tasks.
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Old 2009-06-11, 23:28   Link #7311
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Which is all just speculation of course. (And I'm no more speculative either.) She was certainly capable of using it to Open the battle. Given the choice, seeing Tia running for a building, I'd have just said.

"Hey hold up... Now watch this!"

-Pop!-

"Okay, one barrier... now..."

-Pop!-

"Now a hole in the top of the barrier... now... I.S. RAY STORM"

*BOOM!*

TIA: Oh shi-

*CRUNCH!*


After all, the thing did a number on RF6 HQ... Sweep that thing across the lower floors of this 'Random Highrise' and it's going to crumble when all the support structure gets carved up.
Otto was in communications with her sisters. There would have been no risk to them if she just told them to hang back outside the building and keep Tia from making a break for it, then dropping the thing.

Had this been the US army, they'd have peppered the first floor with fifty cal fire or put artillery/JDAMS into it and brought it down rather than even bother risking their troops against one opponent. Advantages over her or no. Buildings are knocked out to kill one sniper.
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Old 2009-06-11, 23:49   Link #7312
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Once we use that logic, we would be backthreading into all the other "military inconsistences" that only opened cans of squirming wyrms... so let's not go there again.
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Old 2009-06-12, 00:49   Link #7313
AdmiralTigerclaw
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We could. *Cackle*

My excuse in the story to maintain consistency with onscreen presented events without having to dredge up fifty thousand different excuses and technical issues that would hold the consistency of molassas (And I've been operating like this through the entire story), is that they AREN'T militarily trained or skilled in military style thinking in the way combat is conducted... That they are dependant upon their magic to the point where it really is a handicap waiting to be exploited.
And of course, the reasoning I use for this is going back to that big War the Mid-Childan's had that so traumatized them as a culture that they pretty much shunned war and the lessons it taught in fighting to the point that essentially, at best they're PRETENDING to be a military when they lack any any living experience of WAR.

And thus, to a veteran of an actual military conflict (and a successful one at that... I mean viciously successful), the TSAB's got about the effectiveness of an overly well funded collection of SWAT teams. They're good, but they get tunnel vision. They're highly dependant upon their small number of extremely powerful mages, who are in turn, dependant upon their magic to do the job. Even Nanoha is dependant on her magic and he skill with said magic, rather than with natural tactical planning. (Though admittedly, as an Ace, she's still got some good tactical moves.)

She got backstabbed by a cloaking type IV drone. The 'lesson' she learned from that was not to push herself so hard or she might end up failing to react in time to an ambush.

The lesson she didn't seem to catch on to is actually a Murphy's Law of Combat.
#19: "When you've secured the area, don't forget to tell the enemy."

Or in this case: Don't stand around on the ground in hostile territory, in the open, acting like you own the place just because it 'looks' safe. Especially when you can fly (And the type IVs can't), especially when you're all but alone, and especially when it seems all too easy.

Also applicable:
#13: "If your attack is going well, then it's an ambush."
#15: "Anything you do can get you shot, including nothing. "

So yeah, even Nanoha fell victim to the 'Dependancy on Magic' trap in my mind, and it almost killed her. And when she passed her lesson along, it wasn't her tactical mistake she associated with the the event and subsiquently pointed out, it was the mistake on how she was treating her body. She didn't teach Tia about the mistake she made that allowed the Type IV to get close enough to make it a ground ambush, she taught about how she wasn't fast enough to get away.

And obviously mages seem to be a little dense in the Murphy's Law respect because VITA ironicly makes a similar mistake smashing her way through the cradle. I don't know, you guys might consider it an honest mistake. But making it such a relevant point to think about just seems to me like even though she was the one to come to the rescue the first time around, the lesson just didn't stick. So I don't think it got effectively taught to anyone the way it should have.

So long story short, mages are good, but are too dependant on magic, and just don't have the experience to think like a soldier. (Who operate under the premise that everything is about to go horribly wrong, just give it a second...) And thusly, lacking that experience and line of thinking, make ponderously grevous errors.

....

WHEEE! I think too much...
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Old 2009-06-12, 02:35   Link #7314
Wild Goose
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I spotted Mercury alright...

Spoiler:
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Old 2009-06-12, 02:42   Link #7315
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I agree with that; after all WE'RE kinda traumatized until we pretend it works. Somehow. With plot armor thrown in. Hopefully.

One thought this has thrown up: This logic is perfectly valid but then it makes those who think like normal soldiers... Mary Sues, don't they? Considering that none of the universe's characters think so?
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Old 2009-06-12, 03:19   Link #7316
Keroko
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There's a line to be drawn between 'accurate display of military' and 'cool story with girls in skirts fighting magical battles.'

For me, that line is quite clear. So I don't conclude that the TSAB is an incompetent military. I mean, it's only a multi-dimensional organization that governs dozens of worlds (not countries, worlds) and watches over dozens of others that they have no control over. The fact that such an organization is still existing and growing after 150 years shows that they are hardly incompetent.
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Old 2009-06-12, 03:45   Link #7317
Jimmy C
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75, the 75 before that was just Mid and the High Council.
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Old 2009-06-12, 03:49   Link #7318
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Official Timeline
150 Years Ago

* Founding of TSAB

75 Years Ago/MC 00

* Acceptance of Magic-Tech in TSAB/Establishment of GC/Central HQ/Era of the 3 Legendary Admirals
You're confusing the founding of the TSAB with the acceptance of magitech as the main form of armament. The TSAB was founded 150 years ago, but it wasn't until 75 years ago that they stepped over to using magic to power their society.
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Old 2009-06-12, 04:55   Link #7319
Jimmy C
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I'm pretty 150 years ago was when the High Council ended the age of strife on Mid and began rebuilding their world. Then 75 years ago was when the Bureau was established and they changed to the new calendar.
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Old 2009-06-12, 07:18   Link #7320
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I was supposed to write another short regarding another of my OC's... but when two ideas collide, I write both and wait to see which one of them gets completed first. And this short piece won:

Spoiler for Later:


Spoiler for Footnote:
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