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Old 2009-06-12, 08:12   Link #7321
AdmiralTigerclaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
There's a line to be drawn between 'accurate display of military' and 'cool story with girls in skirts fighting magical battles.'

For me, that line is quite clear. So I don't conclude that the TSAB is an incompetent military. I mean, it's only a multi-dimensional organization that governs dozens of worlds (not countries, worlds) and watches over dozens of others that they have no control over. The fact that such an organization is still existing and growing after 150 years shows that they are hardly incompetent.
And when you take over writing my story, you're welcome to govern where the line is drawn.

Until such a time as that happens, I have selected where the line in the sand is for my story.
And my line is to treat visuals and dialogue as what happened with some exaggeration (mainly exaggeration of effects for Rule of Cool) and built some generally accepted background that makes the inconsistencies in the canon details acceptable.

Now I never said the TSAB was incompetent. Just that they don't have any idea how to operate as a true military entity. As a hyperpower, they're unchallenged by a capable equal. So they've never had their problems glaringly pointed out to them via sending their 'troops' through a meat-grinder conflict.
There are decisions and tactics that would be made that made things progressively more unstable, especially with the brains and Jail, that a military running as it should, would have ended.

(Meh, for example, the DOD would have not let Jail run around in some Secret Lab smack in the center of the US. The brains let him do that with Mid-Childa. The DOD would have placed him on a Black Project and the record kept twenty different levels of classified with a budget that 'didn't exist' and he would have been under military oversight the entire time and would NEVER have been able to grow the Numbers in such a way as to brainwash them to follow his CrAzy plan. His work would still be Amoral, but it would have supervision on-site at all times. He'd be in a Mid-Childan Area 51. "Nothing goes on here, there's nothing you need to know about this. Leave immediately civilian.")

Anyway, as I said: When you take over writing my story, feel free to draw the line where you want. Until such a time, I'm responsible for it. Therefor, I need to ensure everything works. I've drawn my line, I've established the reasoning and backstory, I need to ensure it's generally consistent and believable.
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Old 2009-06-12, 08:34   Link #7322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
I was supposed to write another short regarding another of my OC's... but when two ideas collide, I write both and wait to see which one of them gets completed first. And this short piece won:

Spoiler for Later:


Spoiler for Footnote:
I could've sworn that she's Captain Synola Leiser from the Kingdom of Gre-- I mean, Ostia.
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Old 2009-06-12, 13:18   Link #7323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
We could. *Cackle*
Spoiler for For length:


Generally, most fics I've read, and the much of the discussions in the Nanoha threads have been view the TSAB as a paramilitary organization- most of the work they're doing (well, that we'Ve learned of from the series and the soundstages is peacekeeping and police work. I believe that in part was part Regius's complaint, that the ground forces, who would be expected to bear the brunt of serious, large scale action, were being marginalized. With all the history of worlds and entire dimensions wrecked by high level magic and technology(weaponry), the fact the TSAB basically was created to save Interdimensional magical civilazation, there would be a distinct reluctance to use such scorched earth tactics as the US miliatary employs in combat. In fact, I could see people advocating a stronger "militarization" of the TSAB being sidelined, or ignored as warmongers.

I don't think the tactical training of police forces, even such as SWAT, can be really compared to combat training, because in one reduction of casualities and damage for all sides (especially "collateral damage") is part of the doctrine, and enforcement (public safety) is the goal. For the military, reduction of casualties and damage is important basically only for ones own side, modified by what ever rules of engagement are in effect. Magic is being used by the TSAB precisely because it can be controlled much more strictly, than, say, demolishing a building with a volley of .50 cal. , or 105mm shells.

Turning the TSAB into the US military, can't really be the goal, because the military makes a poor police force (shoot first, don't ask questions). It would become necessary to make a clear distinction then, between true military units, and "civil defense" (police, distsaster relief, etc), something I doubt the TSAB society is prepared to do, with the cultural trauma of the Belkan War still strong.

That said, I think your theme of the TSAB _needing_ better tactical training a viable one. Tricky though to implement, without making our "White Devil" ace instructor look like an idiot.
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Old 2009-06-12, 13:32   Link #7324
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It's all this discrepencies that feed reason that there is a proper interdimensional military that is NOT within the Bureau, and serves and is all the components of a proper functional army. The Bureau handled anything within Ordered Space, while the other handled those from without. How are both operated and ruled in specifics is a bloody mess to work out, but stories have to be written first.

Like how sketchy at best and contradictory at worse canon is about this Utopian multiverse of Nanoha, I believe we can afford some slack and not get so tied up with specifics and worrying about extremes. It might need a little patching so that it works, but since it works generally, so it works.

After all, "to make a person's fantasy, everything is possible by magical girls," Zelretch the White Wanderer once said. No truer words have been spoken about this, be it by Man or Device.

About that other organization... SaintX and I call the Galactic Defense Initiative. Name's a historical leftover when it was still intradimensional.
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Old 2009-06-12, 14:29   Link #7325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Outlaender View Post

Generally, most fics I've read, and the much of the discussions in the Nanoha threads have been view the TSAB as a paramilitary organization- most of the work they're doing (well, that we'Ve learned of from the series and the soundstages is peacekeeping and police work. I believe that in part was part Regius's complaint, that the ground forces, who would be expected to bear the brunt of serious, large scale action, were being marginalized. With all the history of worlds and entire dimensions wrecked by high level magic and technology(weaponry), the fact the TSAB basically was created to save Interdimensional magical civilazation, there would be a distinct reluctance to use such scorched earth tactics as the US miliatary employs in combat. In fact, I could see people advocating a stronger "militarization" of the TSAB being sidelined, or ignored as warmongers.

I don't think the tactical training of police forces, even such as SWAT, can be really compared to combat training, because in one reduction of casualities and damage for all sides (especially "collateral damage") is part of the doctrine, and enforcement (public safety) is the goal. For the military, reduction of casualties and damage is important basically only for ones own side, modified by what ever rules of engagement are in effect. Magic is being used by the TSAB precisely because it can be controlled much more strictly, than, say, demolishing a building with a volley of .50 cal. , or 105mm shells.

Turning the TSAB into the US military, can't really be the goal, because the military makes a poor police force (shoot first, don't ask questions). It would become necessary to make a clear distinction then, between true military units, and "civil defense" (police, distsaster relief, etc), something I doubt the TSAB society is prepared to do, with the cultural trauma of the Belkan War still strong.

That said, I think your theme of the TSAB _needing_ better tactical training a viable one. Tricky though to implement, without making our "White Devil" ace instructor look like an idiot.

Which is a delicate act, and why I'm really trying to work on this issue. There ARE grevous tactical errors made even by the Ace of Aces. Though she makes up for it in other ways.

But these rediculous tactical and strategic issues are so deep that someone with experience is bound to spot him.

I mean, looking from the perspective of Roland the Character, the fact that Mid-Childa didn't even know something as *BIG* as the cradle was on their HOMEWORLD, and that Jail managed to raise the thing, would classify as a blunder of the level that someone would seriously start pushing for a restructuring.

Arguably, the Brains had their spinal cords dipped in that, but to allow a Mad Scientist access to resources like he had, without a real method of Oversight is just asking to get, pardon the paralelle, stabbed in the back.

Essentially, Jail pretended to be on a leash when he was off Doing His Own Thing long before then. His was setting up shop on random worlds, moving all over the place, and evading the 'police forces' (with help) while happily accepting free support from (a begrudging) Regius.

The Brains, SHOULD have dragged someone in, stuck Scagletti in a lab that was 'off the record' black project secret, and let him do his Armoral Work some place where they could actually KEEP him under their thumb and have several dozen people looking over his shoulder constantly who's mere pressence alone would have kept his ambitions in check. The Numbers wouldn't have been brainwashed into thinking the Doc's plan was so wonderful had they been in the pressence of a base full of support staffers. Without them, and hoards of drones, he wouldn't have been able to run Amok.

So again, to a soldier like Roland: The fact that JAIL SCAGLETTI was in a position to pull what he did, TO START WITH, was a complete failure of the Administration as a whole.

And I would say, even towards the end, when Regius knew Jail was out of his control, that he knew with a certain finality that he had failed, and that he would burn for it. (Had Due not killed him first.)
In a way, being killed was a Mercy to him, as post incident would have seen people do what the media does today... utterly TEAR HIM APART.

Vicious, Vicious media.
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Old 2009-06-12, 17:17   Link #7326
arkhangelsk
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The only problem with that whole idea is perhaps the simple fact that Scarlietti doesn't like working in such environments.

REAL development work is such that even if you HAVE an uber-genius, you really would require a support staff, especially as things start going from concept into detailed design and engineering - one person cannot rationally do it.

However, SoD seems to force us to accept Scarlietti as such a "one-man army". As far as anyone could tell, he conceived of the Numbers and Artficial Mages, he engineered them ... sometimes he seems to let other people in onto some of his work and see what they can come up with in their own labs, but he's moving independently at the same time. (Of course, such uber-geniuses are a trope for shows. Sometimes, there is a support staff or at least there's no reason there isn't a massive support staff. But this time said "support staff" is a bit hard to find).

Granting such a person could exist, his ability is out of norm. Such a person can only be forced to a certain extent to deal with conditions he doesn't like. He'll give minimal performance, and you can't do a thing about it because 1) Even his minimum is too valuable for you and 2) you don't really know what to expect so cannot really accuse him for not doing his utmost anyway.

Such a person can only be cajoled into giving his best.

If we grant a shred of intelligence to the TSABbies, the scheme they finally worked out with Scarlietti, or even the idea of relying on one single man for any of their developmental projects, is a highly undesirable situation. It would seem likely that ordinary developmental techniques weren't making much progress (even putting Scarlietti in them).

They should have played it safe? Maybe. But their strategic situation is observably hanging by rather thin threads even from our restricted (apparently rose-tinted) viewpoint. So to fix their strategic problems the High Council took a strategic gamble, which bombed.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2009-06-12 at 17:29.
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Old 2009-06-13, 14:15   Link #7327
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And I thought my OC cast was done. My head had other intentions..

Spoiler for A meeting:
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Old 2009-06-14, 12:41   Link #7328
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*Comartemis got legendary item: Zankantou!*

*Comartemis uses Great Cleave on milotaku mob!*

We have a Military thread for stuff like this, guys. Use it.

*Comartemis rides off into the sunset*
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Old 2009-06-14, 16:07   Link #7329
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I forgot I had this laying around on the HDD.

Spoiler for LOST:
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Old 2009-06-16, 01:00   Link #7330
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something for ghaz

a bit rushed thought i think..

Spoiler for The next day:


Enjoy.

====

And on another note.

Another device vectorwork

Spoiler for TF-14B/C-XN Alliona:
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Old 2009-06-20, 13:13   Link #7331
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Four days of nothing? That's a damn shame.

So here's something.

Spoiler for Crisis:
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Last edited by Tempy; 2009-06-20 at 18:34. Reason: Fixing an error.
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Old 2009-06-20, 13:51   Link #7332
Nya~n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest Dynasty View Post
Four days of nothing? That's a damn shame.

So here's something.

Spoiler for Crisis:
Oh, Tempest, you evil thing. You'd never let the poor bloke settle down and live his life properly, would you?
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Old 2009-06-20, 15:57   Link #7333
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Very nice short, massive feeling in this one. GJ.
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Old 2009-06-20, 16:15   Link #7334
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Poor Noland he just can't get a break.
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Old 2009-06-20, 17:36   Link #7335
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Hmm...
Spoiler for Bloodflow:
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Old 2009-06-21, 05:04   Link #7336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicoX View Post
Hmm...
Spoiler for Bloodflow:
And so the trail is fresh once again. Like Walla-tan's favourite drink. I must say though, this short... Isn't as dramatic as the previous Walla-tan one.
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Old 2009-06-21, 08:32   Link #7337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest Dynasty View Post
Four days of nothing? That's a damn shame.

So here's something.

Spoiler for Crisis:
Ahh... Noland you poor bastard. Can't wait for the next part.

Thanks Tempest, I more and more become a fan of your writing.


Also a little status report of mine.

I have a lot of upcoming test next month, so I'm pretty occupied with learing and stuff.
Sorry that I won't be able to contribute to this thread at the moment.
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Old 2009-06-22, 16:43   Link #7338
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Previous Chapters

Knight of Exodus
Spoiler for Chapter 7 - A Hidden Past:
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Last edited by NorthernFallout; 2009-06-29 at 09:08.
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Old 2009-06-23, 11:32   Link #7339
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Okay.

I worked on the scene that's turning out questions. I was re-reading the scene last night trying to get myself moving into the next scene when I decided I didn't like the FLOW of the lines, and found a way to reword the scene that comes off as Less Stupid and more natural.

Spoiler for Third Time's the charm here...:




So what I've done is reword the conversation to move the error in the Forwards away from just being plain lame about their defense, to assuming erraniously about their environment. It's a mistake I could see even a veteran making. I also changed the wording from Roland so that it doesn't imply to have Erio standing up against the wall as someone seemed to have taken the previous line.

I've still got my little Drill Sergeant: 'All Answers are Wrong' styled talkdown in it too, which I was determined to keep.

This way, it makes the point, without making the forwards seem like they're, according to others: "Stupid" after all their experience. Since this is actually the third time I've had a crack at this scene (The post last week was actually version II) I'm thinking "Third Time's a Charm".

Work out better?

Page claim in the name of:

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Last edited by AdmiralTigerclaw; 2009-06-23 at 11:52.
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Old 2009-06-23, 12:41   Link #7340
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Looks good and flow is okay. Though... I would kinda have expected Roland to pull out the hardcopy manual

Anyway, a short quick profile of a new OFM OC:
Spoiler for Rage:
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