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Old 2009-07-29, 06:42   Link #7681
Sheba
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I'll be blunt here: coming from the Haruhi fandom, that whole God-Empress + 40k thing from a couple fo fans is ANNOYING, FREAKING ANNOYING, BLOODY ANNOYING. As a more casual fan, it put me off, it makes me cringe. I certainly do NOT come here to see the same kind of BS.
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Old 2009-07-29, 06:56   Link #7682
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon View Post
We can and have venerated creations of Man via a lot of reasons, and it's made easier when we are shown that a religious race was not above DNA modification, self-changes and other monstrosities that would have the Roman Catholic church raving... Lowe put it very well in that post, and that has been my stand on this issue.

But the fact is, we need context in order to see why we would do so.
The context is clear enough:
Belkans are a backwards ethnic group who are apparently willing to treat a random clone produced with DNA from a long dead king as an object of worship with no regard for her capabilities, skills, or even really how closely she’s at all related to those old kings. They’re an illogical ritualistic society whose slavish devotion to such unthinking tradition probably explains their downfall and total irrelevance on the present stage. In other words: they’re stuck in the past. Fixated on rose tinted glory days and unable to break away from them and move on into the modern world.

They doom themselves to an ever increasing slide into irrelevance and most likely eventually extinction and assimilation. Indeed fear of the later is quite possibly why they cling to such foolish beliefs due to a silly notion that such things make them “different” and keep them distinct. When really all they do is further isolate and weaken them. Belka’s day is over and by continuing to cling to bygone days that will never return and venerate people from the past who were almost certainly at best morally ambiguous they merely make themselves a laughing stock.

So I see no romance in the Saint Church or what has become of the Belkan ethnic group, or at least your version of it, that seems closely linked to it. I see only poor backwards people and feel only pity.
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Old 2009-07-29, 06:57   Link #7683
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Whether something is Holy or not doesn't depend on the actual process of its creation though, but on the perception of the people who view it due to association with an event or a concept that people do consider sacred or holy. Most of the things considered "Holy" and "Sacred" in this world can objectively be viewed as objects created by man and nothing more than that - for example one can simply dismiss the Turin Shroud as nothing more than a large piece of cloth with a unique design, but to the devout it would be a sacred relic because it's supposed to be the cloth worn by Jesus in his burial. Or for example one can easily see that all the statues and idols of the Virgin Mary and Jesus are made by man using nothing more than stone or wood or any other material, and yet people still revere them as holy.

For an example closer to home... who was it who considered the 1911 handgun as "sacred" around these parts? Even if it's just joking or whatnot, it still proves my point in a way.
The question then comes about though: what is one's faith based on? Is one's faith based on that imparted in John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, and whoever belives in him my not perish, but have eternal life" - or on physical objects? Is our faith reliant on the cross and what it stands for - the redemptive sacrifice of Christ and the Grace of God - or is it reliant on objects to venerate?

To an extent it also depends on which branch of Christianity one subsribes to - most of those who venerate these relics tend to be Catholics, while Protestants merely raise an eye and shrug in confusion.

As for the statues and idols of the Virgin Mary and Jesus... the thinking, at least in Anglican and Evangelical circles, is that the objects themselves have no holiness in of themsels, and have no reverential function, but are useful decorations. (which is something of an oversimplification but it's been a few years since I've discussed this with my dad and he's outstation on business so it'll be a while before I can rediscuss this with him.)

Hmmm. Guess I'm not as backslidden as I thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
I'll be blunt here: coming from the Haruhi fandom, that whole God-Empress + 40k thing from a couple fo fans is ANNOYING, FREAKING ANNOYING, BLOODY ANNOYING. As a more casual fan, it put me off, it makes me cringe. I certainly do NOT come here to see the same kind of BS.

Seconded.

Hell, the damn show is trying to give Vivio a normal girl life. She's a little girl whose gone through a traumatic experience and needs to lead a normal life. Let her be normal, let her be a little girl. Don't force her to be something she's not.

That little girl is Vivio Takamachi, daughter of Nanoha Takamachi. No more, no less.

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Now I will rofl if this discussion causes holy war to break out. XD
There is no such thing as a holy war. There is nothing holy about war. It is something that has to be done.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2009-07-29 at 07:14.
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Old 2009-07-29, 07:13   Link #7684
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
The question then comes about though: what is one's faith based on? Is one's faith based on that imparted in John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, and whoever belives in him my not perish, but have eternal life" - or on physical objects? Is our faith reliant on the cross and what it stands for - the redemptive sacrifice of Christ and the Grace of God - or is it reliant on objects to venerate?

To an extent it also depends on which branch of Christianity one subsribes to - most of those who venerate these relics tend to be Catholics, while Protestants merely raise an eye and shrug in confusion.

As for the statues and idols of the Virgin Mary and Jesus... the thinking, at least in Anglican and Evangelical circles, is that the objects themselves have no holiness in of themsels, and have no reverential function, but are useful decorations. (which is something of an oversimplification but it's been a few years since I've discussed this with my dad and he's outstation on business so it'll be a while before I can rediscuss this with him.)

Hmmm. Guess I'm not as backslidden as I thought.
You missed the point, this isn't about faith: This is about how people can consider ANYTHING to be "holy" or "sacred" regardless of their origins. Some early tribal religions even consider the rocks on the ground and the trees as dieties in and of itself to be respected. One person may see a cave and treat it like a cave, while another may see the same cave and consider himself blessed by a great power beyond him and consider it "sacred". Even that petri dish used as the first example here can be considered by some as "holy" if it has something that conforms to a person's belief of holiness and sacredness. You also provided the example yourself: the same relics that Christians see as "holy" are the same ones that Protestants don't care about.

Whether one considers something as "holy" or "sacred" is dependent on the person's perspective and beliefs. It is a subjective label afterall, and not an objective trait. Hence, nothing's stopping a person from considering something as "holy", no matter what the object in question is or its origins.
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Old 2009-07-29, 07:15   Link #7685
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Perhaps, but that says more about the people than the actual holiness of the objects venerated.
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Old 2009-07-29, 07:18   Link #7686
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"Actual Holiness"?

There's no such thing, since as already pointed out what is "Holy" and what is not is, to the objective mind, dependent on the person's views of that constitutes "Holy" and what is not. Unless someone can truly confirm the existence of God using scientific and objective methods with no room for doubt, and of what objects he has blessed as "Holy", there's nothing in this world that can be objectively be considered "Holy." Even then though, because "Holiness" as a concept is inherently subjective, some people may even see said objects as "Unholy" instead.

It has everything to do with people, because "Holiness" is in a person's mind.
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Old 2009-07-29, 07:23   Link #7687
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This has certainly caught fire! Can't reply properly since this is just a mobile phone, but just a sidenote to add:

Yes, yes, I recognize all these views and yes they will be explored, from the perspectives of Belka and Midchilda, believers and non-believers alike. I don’t expect to convert you all, but I at least expect to develop the entire multiverse in its rightful technicolor.

But you guys know my restrictions. Until I achieve something concrete, I’ll have to go with the prevailing (and regrettably divisive) perspective. As much as I love to write, I love my Medicine degree a hell lot more that my Kaiser has to wait.
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Old 2009-07-29, 07:24   Link #7688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
"Actual Holiness"?

There's no such thing, since as already pointed out what is "Holy" and what is not is, to the objective mind, dependent on the person's views of that constitutes "Holy" and what is not. Unless someone can truly confirm the existence of God using scientific and objective methods with no room for doubt, and of what objects he has blessed as "Holy", there's nothing in this world that can be objectively be considered "Holy." Even then though, because "Holiness" as a concept is inherently subjective, some people may even see said objects as "Unholy" instead.

It has everything to do with people, because "Holiness" is in a person's mind.
"Actual holiness" would be if something really was created by god or the like; at least to my thinking. Such a thing really doesn't exist in the real world, but in fiction it is possible for something to be known and proved to be created or touched by the divine which would by most thinking make it inherently "holy". Earlier drafts by Kha, and I'm not sure if this is still the case or wasn't, but now is again, had people in the Saint Church who could literally call down the power of god to smite people and such and Vivio was pretty much Jesus in loli form. He changed most of that but then that line of his in that post gave me a bad feeling he might be creeping back toward it...
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Old 2009-07-29, 07:25   Link #7689
Wild Goose
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Of course there's no such thing as Actual Holiness, I'm glad we both agree on that. (With the caveat as TK mentioned, unless it's something conclusively proven to have been created and sanctified and blessed by the Almighty, but good lukc finding something like that in the real world.)

And of course there are things that are unholy. 2chan is one of them.

As for holiness... the general rule that's been taught to me, is that holiness is not the state of an object; holiness is manifested through your behaviour and conduct. (Yes yes, I've failed that one already, hence why I don't talk about it much. )
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Old 2009-07-29, 07:32   Link #7690
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Remember that in canon, there are people within the Belkan Saint Church who consider Vivio to be the reborn Saint-King of Belka.

So it's not just a fan perception/WH40k nonsense.

It's actually canon. Which should end this argument.
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Old 2009-07-29, 07:36   Link #7691
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Remember that in canon, there are people within the Belkan Saint Church who consider Vivio to be the reborn Saint-King of Belka.

So it's not just a fan perception/WH40k nonsense.

It's actually canon. Which should end this argument.
We're not disputing that there are people who consider Vivio to be the reborn Sankt Kaiser - that's their prerogative.

What is being disputed is whether Vivio herself possesses any divinity or not. TK and I are in the camp that says "No, she may be venerated, but she has no divinity."

Let's keep in mind that moeblob though she is, she's an imperfect clone. Hardly the Sankt Kaiser reborn, IMO.
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Old 2009-07-29, 07:38   Link #7692
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Oh you mean THAT! Of course not lol I've taken the holy magic out of the little girl. She could learn some in future if she wants to, or gain some artefact that gives her access to some Light-smiting ass-kickery, but definitely not now. Unless Force or Vivid change the status quo.

But her being depicted and venerated by some as a reborn kaiser? Like hell I'm EVER gonna revoke that!


EDIT: When is To Aru Kagaku no Railgun coming out? I'm dying for my Misaka fix.
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Last edited by MeisterBabylon; 2009-07-29 at 07:49.
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Old 2009-07-29, 08:23   Link #7693
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Not me! But then again, you and I are on only every Blue Moon or so...
Riiiiight....I still post every now and then...
...and lurk around >_>

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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Hayaurion is the OTP of OCT. It's also, in a way, the NF of the Legion, except that the Legion ships NF for Serious Business and Hayaurion is mostly to make Aaron swirly, since he's only good for his humor appeal.
OTP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon View Post
Vivio: Eh- eh- eh- How many faces did I have...?
Saber: As many as there are humans to interpret. *serious look*
Lily: A celestial being is everything and anything at once, but a mortal can only perceive one at a time, therefore...

Vivio: Are you sure its not just misrepresentation by the SS?! I recall flailing at their ideas for spreading the Gospel!!! :flail:
Saber: And there's that too... *snicker*
Vivio: SEIBAAA!!!
Lily: Hahaha...




That's right folks; this is how the Holy Trinity actually behaves.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Let me put it this way: if Vivio was truly divine, she couldn't have been cloned.

The very fact of her existence as an imperfect clone nullifies all possible claims of divinity.
Imperfect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
We're not disputing that there are people who consider Vivio to be the reborn Sankt Kaiser - that's their prerogative.

What is being disputed is whether Vivio herself possesses any divinity or not. TK and I are in the camp that says "No, she may be venerated, but she has no divinity."

Let's keep in mind that moeblob though she is, she's an imperfect clone. Hardly the Sankt Kaiser reborn, IMO.
Again...?

The Sankt Kaiser was called that way because he/she/whatever stopped the wars and unified Belka, just that.
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Old 2009-07-29, 10:05   Link #7694
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... Wha?

Er, guys I think you're mistaking the Christian concept of holiness/divinity with the Japanese concept of holiness/divinity.

To the Japanese eyes, someone mortal and decidedly not divine/holy can be made holy/divine if a person did great things and people wish to venerate and honor their accomplishments.

I don't think anyone in the Saint Church regards Vivio/Sankt Kaiser as GOD or even the Child of GOD. They worship the Sankt Kaiser and her past deeds as if she had become a 'god'.

Examples would include say the Roman god "Augustus" and the Chinese god "Guan Yu". I think these guys are better example of what the Saint Church is aiming for...
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Old 2009-07-29, 10:58   Link #7695
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Going together with The Cancri Index, the Armory is currently being written. It will contain almost all information regarding the hardware the Cancri State Military uses (except numbers and pics). I will integrate it both as as a separate post and into the Cancri Index.

Moving on from there, below is tiny article describing the uniform most Cancri State soldiers has. It's my version of the Nanoverse BJ and has some inspiration/concepts taken from fictional Power Armor/Exoskeleton.

Spoiler for L9 Military Uniform:
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Old 2009-07-29, 11:38   Link #7696
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......

Olivier Armstrong makes a better Saint Kaiser than Saber anyways.
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Old 2009-07-29, 12:03   Link #7697
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Also, I never considered the 1911 as sacred. It's the union of 1911 and .45ACP that is a pure and holy union mandated by God, that none shall set apart. Like marriage.
And thus you make it sarced... heck your previous sig also had part of the so-called "Gospel".

so yeah.
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Old 2009-07-29, 12:24   Link #7698
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your call, just hope you have enough life to tank whatever is coming.
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Well it is technically an MMO first two weeks are free though and it’s a nice little game not big to install and fun. It’s rather realistic though (not quite IL-2 realistic, but it has a learning curve). No rocketing skyward at a 10,000 feet per minute, climbing vertically, or diving at mach one without even vibration. If you try it though let me know, I could use a bullet magn—WINGMAN.
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Although frankly a stick is needed to get the most out of the experience flying with a mouse is possible, but airplanes had flight sticks for a reason.
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If she was on a mission with someone from the special forces was involved in, it is pretty likely she'll get an invitation.
If Baskir knows her already he may invite her too.
He better remember how much of a lightweight she is.

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Yep, working on it, but yes, it will be there. And ironically, Keroko married a guy more powerful than her. Barrett is a good mage but may or may not be able to match Mio in power... but that's where skilll comes into play...
Well, looking forward to it.

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Okay.... here's about one third of Phase One of my Fowards training session with Crash.

You might notice bits of 'anallysis' going on in the prose... when you spot this, think of it in a way where you can imagine the character as thinking to themself... Especially important for crash, as this would be internal monologue bordering on talking to one's self.

The entirety of the Erio/Crash exchange late in this segment was tonight's work.

Spoiler for Fight Bit:
Well, Jimmy handled the Voltaire bit already so I'll just say that it was pretty darn amusing.

And Nanoha behaves exactly like any VIP does. Annoyingly slow and out in the open. I always hate escort missions, regardless of the game.

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Se we learned that the last Saint Kaiser's name was Olivier.

I have found her.

Ladies and gentlemen,

Spoiler for Olivier:
*headdesk* Ow... okay. An Armstrong? Oh this is going to be good...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Let's keep in mind that moeblob though she is, she's an imperfect clone. Hardly the Sankt Kaiser reborn, IMO.
Actually, she's a perfect clone. Doesn't change the nature of the debate, though.

I myself am in the non-divinity camp. I regard Vivio as the Pharaoh, whom were believed to be gods by their people, but were flesh and blood just like anyone else. This does not change with the God Empress crack, because I view the God Emperor the same way: A powerful man who is simply being revered as a god after his death, despite never having been one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
I'll be blunt here: coming from the Haruhi fandom, that whole God-Empress + 40k thing from a couple fo fans is ANNOYING, FREAKING ANNOYING, BLOODY ANNOYING. As a more casual fan, it put me off, it makes me cringe. I certainly do NOT come here to see the same kind of BS.
Best thing to do if you don't like something is simply scroll past it and not pay too much attention to it. Everyone has their own gimmick. Some people like to throw their own military experiences into the fray and make Nanoha more militarily accurate, some people mix Nanoha with the Kamen Riders and some with Mecha Musume. And some like to mix Nanoha and 40K up a bit, sprinkling bits and pieces of one universe into the other.
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Old 2009-07-29, 12:29   Link #7699
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Y'know, I don't think she was veneered as a God during her reign. What's this about uniting the country? I hate missing data x_x when did this happen or are we just using the three kingdoms story to answer all this?
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Old 2009-07-29, 13:00   Link #7700
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*Comar returns amid much rejoicing!*

Monty Python Extras: Yay.

Well well well, I seem to have stumbled into a bit of a firefight here. For what it's worth, I'm with Kero on the "mortal goddess" theory; I've always (well... recently, at least) regarded the Kaiser as being closer to a militant Ghandi than Space Jesus in terms of why she's so revered.

So what's been going on in my absence?
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