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Old 2009-09-03, 19:31   Link #8081
Anita
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
If this were the case, Nove would have Vibration Shatter as her IS just like her sister Subaru. Seeing how she doesn't, calling IS a skill that one would naturally have due to inheritance is already flawed.
From what I could understand, canon says Ginga and Subaru are genetically similar to Quint, and then denies that she had anything to do with being their progenator. Nove is her true daughter, and instead has another IS. This IS, whose name escapes me at the moment, is Quint's true IS, not Vibration Shatter. Why Ginga and Subaru were genetically similar to Quint, I still don't know, but in any case it rules out that Quint had Vibration Shatter in the first place. Or Genya was the one with Vibration Shatter and they inherited his IS instead of their mother's.

IS due to their complexity have to be coded for by multiple genes. This means that if a child only inherits part of the code, they become a carrier of the Skill, but will be unable to use it.

I think Kha mentions that this is why IS are rarely manifested in a normal human being. They need to have a complete set of a Skill's genes, and be able to draw nethergon to power their Skill. They are one-trick-ponies, but most of the time, their powers break the rules. And the most successful ones tend to use their Skill a lot, and every time it is a gamble. They can just as much cause their brains to explode when they try to crush someone with their willpower. Many Factors die without ever producing offspring, further reducing the prevalence of their IS in the population.

The cyborgs have been modified to significantly reduce the chance of them suffering from the Perils of the Warp, and their IE make their IS more efficient in using nethergon, but their IS manifested are somewhat lesser than the theoretical maximum. Their IS also don't break the rules as much, meaning that they also require less nethergon to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Except there are no cases of anyone besides a cyborg possessing an IS, much less use it.
I'll give you this much. Kha came up with template rules for Skills and Factors, and I used them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
While I do agree, I would say that in order to make ideas work in the Nanohaverse, it is best to adjust the ideas to the Nanohaverse instead of the other way around. For example, my 'Eldar in the works' Rhana does not use the Warp to throw around psychic powers as they do in the Warhammerverse, but instead are simply a very potent magically gifted race.

Saying "Nanohaverse magic isn't magic, but IS is magic" even though the series says the direct opposite is trying to alter the Nanohaverse to fit Nasuverse ideas.
Once again, it's Kha's fault. He created the Factors, and I was using his concepts. I'm not able to argue this point through properly.

But Kha has gone to school already so hope you can wait till later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Not quite, Rare Skills refer to unique skills in an individual. While you are right in that so far they haven't been shown to be hereditary, neither are Inherent Skills. So far these have only been shown to be the result of cyborgification, and not a natural event.
They haven't shown them to be inheritable, but they do show that Jail uses cloning to propagate and preserve the IS. To me, that means the IS are more stably coded for by genes and not as unpredictable as Rare Skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And this is completely not the case. In fact, it is the direct opposite. What Nanohaverse calls magic is still very much dependent on the mage itself just like traditional magic, merely enhanced by technology. IS on the other hand cannot even exist without the technology to create them in the first place.
Kha called it a conspiracy to suppress knowledge of Factors and Skills because these kinds of people are a direct threat to the supremacy of magic. That's the gist I get from the way he introduces Factors and their struggles in magic society.
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Last edited by Anita; 2009-09-03 at 19:45.
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Old 2009-09-03, 19:50   Link #8082
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Originally Posted by Tempest Dynasty View Post
Well now.

A short.

Someone's in trouble.

Spoiler for Trapped:

EDIT: Page claim for... lunch. I like lunch.
I like lunch very much too. Now I'm looking forward to what Noland has for dinner... something reaaally cold maybe?
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Old 2009-09-03, 21:03   Link #8083
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I knew I was going to be dragged into this, even if I stand by watching.

Factors are people blessed with a great psionic power. They have also been called Psykers, Psions, Psychics, even ESPers. They usually only have one power, but that power can be as simple as cooking a perfect meal every time to something as mind-boggling as being able to see and influence the origin and death of Creation. Factors draw their energy, known as nethergon, from a sub-realm known as the Warp, the third plane of the three --Material, Fold and Warp-- that make up a dimension and its sea. The Warp is the final frontier for Bureau, who have occupy the material worlds and sail the Fold of dimensional seas, but till this day the Warp remains impenetrable. Factors however are much more familiar with the Warp, having been born with a patent connection to the realm that once connected every human being.

You'd think that this is enough for the Bureau to encourage and grow the Factors right? Wrong. Paranoia reigns instead, and for a good reason. Nethergon in sufficient purity and concentration gains AMF-like effects, making an army of strengthened Factors nigh-immune to magic attack. Jail used this principle to create a low-power field generator that can be mounted on his devices, and look how much damage it caused. Fortunately, or unfortunately for those who want to capture a Factor to understand the Warp, Factors with even any semblance of power are rare and far between.

Due to the way Ancient Belka society worked, Factors were very common amongst aristocrats, preserved across the generations by arranged intermarriages. They retain most of their wealth and power when the Bureau came to be, coming to occupy high places in the private and public strata of society. Said families rarely show off their abilities in public too, guarding their secrets lest their enemies learn of them and dull their advantage. This leaves researchers to whatever scraps they can pull off the street, and hence research into the Warp progresses slowly.

Sophia comes from a family that preserved the ISoFP in their blood. According to new lore by Anita, it is because Sophia inherited the trait rather than her younger frat twin was the reason why her father gave Hayate away (and in doing so caused her to be used as food for the Book of Darkness). This in itself shows that even IS can be somewhat random in inheritance. Siblings are rarely alike after all, unless they are identical twins.

The theory is incomplete, and as it is, it flies in the face of canon. I need more details to make it work in my favor, but no one is ever going to accept any of this even then, Anita. I've given up trying to convince anyone that it is going to work.

You should stop using my concepts and work on your own. My concepts only work for me, and will only make you look stupid.
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Old 2009-09-03, 21:10   Link #8084
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Old 2009-09-03, 21:17   Link #8085
Anita
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@Kha: If I don't use your concepts, who will?! >_<
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Old 2009-09-03, 21:29   Link #8086
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I'm not hungry for approval. Approval is a plus, but I'm hungrier for controversy.
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Old 2009-09-03, 21:31   Link #8087
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More like chaos, it's like you are saying things just to provoke reactions without even knowing what the reactions will be and laughing when you get made fun of for it

no, wait that was me...
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Old 2009-09-03, 21:39   Link #8088
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Because Babylon exists, the various magical worlds are starting to fuse. Nanoha World and Nasu World are fusing, sparking a Magical Girl War for survival.

And it's all Nii-chan's fault! You, Destroyer of Worlds, Meister Babylon!
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Old 2009-09-03, 21:41   Link #8089
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...oh Kaiser, I don't whether to laugh or cry...

It's my fate to be destroyed by mages from all the various worlds huh? Bring it on! >=3
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Old 2009-09-03, 21:55   Link #8090
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Last edited by itanshi1; 2009-09-03 at 22:05.
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Old 2009-09-03, 22:30   Link #8091
Anita
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IMBECILES, IDIOTS, NINCOMPOOPS, ALL OF YOU!!!

Can we get back on topic??? Kha needs help...

And Kha listen to your lecture and stop posting until you are actually free! >_<
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Old 2009-09-03, 22:36   Link #8092
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Hai, Ojou-sama.

*fleeeeeez*



@Keroko: OMG where did you get that sig! I've been looking all over for anime-Tau fanart for my fluff post on Tau Online!
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Old 2009-09-04, 00:18   Link #8093
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
This doesn't dodge the issue: Even standard, normal, one-on-one 'port a few yards away' teleportation magic is rare and difficult to the point where they can be counted on our hands, and over half of those had the skill specifically programmed into them because their entire magic style lacked such a spell. How does a grenade manage dozens (if not more) of them at the same time?
Because it's a peice of equipment specificly designed to do so. If you were to recall the various binds and cages that are bound to the Leize Twin's little trap cards... They aren't big. You can take twenty of these and tape them together in a football shape and get something that looks the same. It's a different spell, I grant you. But when you cut out all the junk not required to do anything but imprint "CAST TELEPORT" onto something, it's not hard. You just segment it so each grenade is essentially a collection of individual CAST TELEPORT emitters all taped to one trigger node.



Quote:
You jibber jabber a lot around it, but you don't refute the point: You want an invincible one shot kill weapon. A hand-carried invincible one-shot-kill weapon. Were this a magic spell it would never pass the bill and be labeled overpowered right away, why should we allow its technological brother a free pass?
Straw Man.
Trying to claim my motives/intent and then present them in place of my arguments is a fallacy to the issue at hand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by stormturmoil View Post
To add to what Keroko has said: rules of reproducibility: if you can build a small one, you can build a big one.

That's how science works. And in Nanoha-Verse, Magic is a science.

Congratulations, you just put the Death Star into a briefcase. Your terrorists can now mass-scatter Planets.
Teleport spells don't scale well my dear storm. Teleportation is a volume based spell. The volume moved goes up cubed to the radius of the effect, thus the energy requirements also go up both in line with the cube increase in volume and more to please the Inverse Square Law... so the power requirement will grow exponentially as the effect of such a spell grows.

For example, to move a 1 foot by one foot by one foot cube of energy requires one unit. However, to move a 3X3 cube, requires 27 units of energy. Etc...

If you can build this thing big, you probably have the means to build cheaper, more effective weapons, like an actual Arc-En-Ciel. Like I said, it's not a game breaker. It's just very nasty.


Quote:
The Bureau may as well just kill themselves and cut out the god damned middleman, because with this, there is no way to oppose whoever has it.

You don't think so? One coordinated strike with these things on a Bureau Barracks will by it's nature wipe out basically the entire fighting strength for a city; no defence, no chance of survival.

You use One of these on the ground forces tower base and the tower comes down, killing everyone in it or near it. The same goes for any other large building; it's the ultimate demolition explosive; structural support just disappears!

One of these, by it's nature, detonating anywhere near a bureau ship, will cripple if not sink it. A huge chunk of hull and components is just going to disappear, and the ship is going to founder. You hit near the engines or reactors safety systems, and there's a good chance of opening the reactor...

One of these, detonated near the Bureau Naval HQ space station could destabilise the entire structure, causing it to rip itself apart!

There's a reason Shows like Trek don't let the Feds use all the funky tech-of-the-week stuff they have, and this attempt at a weaponised transporter is the kind of thing that would fall into that category...

It's too damned dangerous, and too unstoppable; whoever has it, Wins, unless someone can pull out something worse, like Go-Away Beams instead of Go-Away Bombs.

This is basically the equivalent of making the Arc-En-Ciel a hand weapon.

Why do you THINK Weaponized Teleportation is Illegal.
It's Very Nasty Shit. But it isn't infallable. Let me explain some things.

First off, as I said, it scales poorly. To get the effects of the grenade to work at the five meter burst radius requires a dedicated, disposable single component which is essentially a power core wrapped in trigger cards strapped to a twist timer.

If you make the power core bigger alone, you just expand the radius of the teleport. Which quickly requires larger and larger power cores with a minor net gain as per the Inverse Square Law. On top of this, if you just increase the power, you just beef the range of sixteen 'segments' of teleportation. Out beyond a certain range, all that happens is you get caught in an unstable teleport, rather than a telefrag. So to scale up, now you have to add more individual segments to keep the 'fragment' sizes down at range, and these emitters then require more power each, and by the time you scale up to city threatening, it's the size of a 747 and covered in thousands of 'tiles'.


What's easier to use at that point? This 'unblockable' but easily noticed and DESTROYED weapon? Or an Arc-en-ciel?

No, this weapon is best used small. Hell, even for a grenade its large. It's the size of a football. Most explosive grenades are the size of a soft ball or a beer can.


So lets run down the pros and cons.


PROS:
It kills mages, even protected ones, instantly.

CONS:
It scales poorly, and is thus, inefficient.
It is expensive since it's made of lots of spell trigger equipment.
It is difficult to make in the first place. Thus, Rare.
It is HIGHLY illegal. Thus, very rare.
Its actual employment in an environment is limited.
It can be destroyed before it actually fires off.


So let's say you want to kill nanoha with one of these things.

Well, first you have to get in touch with some black market buddies, find a person who can get you one of these things. Out of hundreds of thousands of things on the black market, you may find a supply of... maybe ten. Being hard to make and all...

Then you have to buy them. Given what they are, and how ILLEGAL they are, now you have to buy them. You can afford... say five.

Two got intercepted in shipment. The TSAB are on the ball today. You manage to get ahold of three.

Now that you have your Rift Grenades, time to use them in a fight.

Somehow, you get your wish, and here comes Nanoha, pissed as all hell ready to make friends.

You have the initiative, twist the cap on your first Rift Grenade, and chunk it. Nanoha sees the football sized thing flying at her, and notices a disctintive whining sound she's been instructed to AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE. And flash moves right over your throw nicely.

The Rift grenade lands in the grass thirty meters away, finishes cycling to five seconds, and kills a mook with a flash.

Now, Nanoha's REALLY pissed, and she's on guard. She'll hang out beyond your throwing arm and pound you to dust with busters. Now what?

Well, rather than going down easy, you figure you're damned now. Time to go down swinging. You pull out the next Rift grenade, and everybody engaging you notices it... being the size of a football and all. You twist the cap and chunk it towards a group of mages who go bug eyed and turn to run.

*CRACK-BOOM!*

Nanoha spears it with divine shooter, it blows up 'harmlessly' releasing the core energy without triggering the actual spells.

One Grenade Left. It's like playing Halo on Legendary. You just walked into a room full of Elites, and you have only one sticky-nade... Oh dear. Whoever you tag is dead meat, but what are you gonna' do after that?

The mages are keeping back because they don't want to be the ones you throw that last grenade at. And unless you have a hostage, chances are Nanoha's just going to bust(er) you at this point "Zenkuyo Zenkai."


So, hardly a game breaker.


It's just like dealing with nades in real life, without magic. In real life, a hand grenade WILL kill you. Yet, still, people manage to come back alive from an environment where they exist...

So it just goes to say, that just because a Rift Grenade WILL kill an S+ mage, doesn't mean the S+ mage has to sit there and get caught by it. Therefore, since the S+ mage won't be caught and killed each time this weapon is used, it's not an 'Invincible One-Shot' weapon, as one person has claimed. This goes back to reinforce my point that this weapon is nasty, but not a game breaker or HAXX weapon. It easy easily 'defeated' via tactics.


Remember that in combat, not everything is about power. Sometimes you have to admit the most awesome stuff is not overpowering your opponent, but managing to get around the issues presented by things that WILL ruin your day.
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Old 2009-09-04, 00:24   Link #8094
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Knowing how people and economies work, illegal does not necessarily equate rare
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Old 2009-09-04, 00:28   Link #8095
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Hard to make combined with illegal and expensive however, does.

Otherwise the real world would have more nukes in black market hands and in use than it does now.
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Old 2009-09-04, 00:30   Link #8096
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Not sure it scales the same way as nukes given rarity of nuclear materials comparative to magical training and gems (that are all over nanoha verse) and the sheer number of potential parties that could be interested. I'd say there are more nukes/quasi nukes/nuke material being passed around then we know. Use? I wonder how well reported use is. We've dropped more bombs than just on Japan, but they are not well known.

I was comparing it to illegal downloads.
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Old 2009-09-04, 00:31   Link #8097
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Illegal downloads?

Not exactly the best comparison to make considering what's being discussed...
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Old 2009-09-04, 00:41   Link #8098
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I'm not sure about that. Illegal downloads may be rediculously common, but how uncommon are magical devices in nanoha verse? the availability of skilled mages is unexplored. It benefits you to assume they are rae, but they can be found in random locations and there are how many worlds?
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Old 2009-09-04, 00:48   Link #8099
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Well illegal downloads are ridiculously common because it doesn't cost anything for production and its relatively harmless. And because of that, compared to the rest of the population, relatively few people really give a crap about illegal downloads.

These grenades, on the other hand, are lethal weapons and do cost money to produce, and more to purchase, and because they're weapons, dangerous ones at that, people are going to be a lot more concerned about them. So no, not a fairly good comparison.

A better one would be... I dunno... stolen organs, maybe?
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Old 2009-09-04, 00:53   Link #8100
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We do have a limiting factor for the rarity however.

Even if the equipment has no problems handling the cheapo teleportation needed, having people who understand teleportation magic enough to make them is going to be rare given the valid components of previous arguments. (Namely, that teleportation is rare enough to be in single digit noted users/incidents out of the cast.)

In using the nuke paralelle, it's not just having the uranium to make the Bomb. It's having the guys with the expertise to actually make the bomb on hand who are willing to work for less than noble causes. Out of a starting pool of six billion people, that number is most likely in the low double digits to high single digits.


EDIT: By the by...

I have an idea of who I'm going to be giving Rift Grenades to once the 'bugs' are all worked out. Nasty as they are, they have only one rightful place in my story...

Marcellus's desk drawer.


Yes, just when you thought it was safe to have a Sting Operation on Apeture Systems corporate HQ, the madman at the top lobs the nastiest man portable weapons ever encountered by the TSAB down the stairs. Good thing for that army of Red Shirts the TSAB employs.
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