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Old 2010-08-28, 06:05   Link #9121
LoweGear
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Originally Posted by Tempy View Post
Crosspost.

What the hell did I write? Man, late-night writing makes for weird stories...

Side Dish 1
Side Dish 2

Spoiler for Side Dish 3: Pride:
Lieutenant didn't know about the first rule about taking one's daughters it seems:

Thou Shalt Not Invite The Ire Of Papa Bear Lest You Desire Thy Balls Cleaved Off
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Old 2010-08-28, 06:52   Link #9122
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Lieutenant didn't know about the first rule about taking one's daughters it seems:

Thou Shalt Not Invite The Ire Of Papa Bear Lest You Desire Thy Balls Cleaved Off
First rule of family: You don't fuck with the parents or elder siblings.

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Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon View Post
This can only go 2 ways: The happy-canon-ending-where-everyone-lived-ever-after, or the realistic pissed-off-superiors-whose-actions-created-half-of-the-worlds-villains angst more associated with the pre-StrikerS era.
I should thank Tempy for giving Athena motivation to start researching stuff about the bureau. I was wondering about a reason for that.
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Old 2010-08-28, 08:43   Link #9123
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People, people, TV dramas don't show the lower income group to be oppressed for no good reason you know...

If the higher-ups desired it hard enough, nothing realistic will stop them. Though realistically, this could become the custody battle of the century! John Graham type of court actions! State VS the Man in the Backwater! The backstabbing and underhanded nature of the pre-Jail Bureau can be explored!

Oh the tasty noir!! :3
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Old 2010-08-28, 09:28   Link #9124
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I have some ideas about Bureau Factionalism as well- including the bureaucraziness of certain decisions leading up to the Jail Fail
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Old 2010-08-28, 09:59   Link #9125
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Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon View Post
People, people, TV dramas don't show the lower income group to be oppressed for no good reason you know...

If the higher-ups desired it hard enough, nothing realistic will stop them. Though realistically, this could become the custody battle of the century! John Graham type of court actions! State VS the Man in the Backwater! The backstabbing and underhanded nature of the pre-Jail Bureau can be explored!

Oh the tasty noir!! :3
Kevin has a good point though. The bureau really does have nothing to say on the matter. The girls are living on Japanese soil under Japanese nationalities. The bureau has no right to take them away legally, and doing so could be classified as an act of kidnapping at best, but with the political implications it could theoretically be classified as an act of invasion, due to the TSAB exerting their authority on foreign soil.

The most they could do is cut their funding. Anything beyond that is an empty threat, legally speaking.
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Old 2010-08-28, 10:33   Link #9126
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I'm pretty sure reclassifying them as Class-S threats would easily warrant a transfer into better care.

That said, unlike the real Aces, the Materials have no qualms about blasting Bureau officials until it sticks if they come for them. I think that will be the biggest factor in any plan to reassign the girls.

But then there's as you said, Athena finds out about the Bureau, Diana plots the next phase of conquest, Lilia comes along for the ride like any good berserker does, and Shana picking up after all of them. Whether Kevin likes it or not, Inception has been made. The girls will join the TSAB.

Ironically, that will eventually cost the Lieutenant and his higher-ups everything (oh don't worry the rest of the Bureau will be fine), if what I envision takes place. :3
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Old 2010-08-28, 11:35   Link #9127
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I'm pretty sure reclassifying them as Class-S threats would easily warrant a transfer into better care.
Warrant, maybe, but that still would face several problems. First of, the reclassification itself. I don't buy that everyone in the bureau except for the main cast is an asshole, so the decision itself would yield a lot of question marks from a lot of officials.

This would mean that the classification would need to be proven. Not an easy task considering the girls aren't homocidal maniacs who kill, pillage and burn everything in their immediate surroundings. Even Diana is more talk than substance in that department.

So let's assume the investigation proceeds, this would then have to face the counter-investigation intend on proving that the girls aren't threats. This investigation would be a lot more successful, and would debunk the majority of the points the former investigation would raise.

And then, assuming they manage to overcome all these difficulties, they have to face the girls themselves. As you pointed out, they really don't have much of a problem continuously blasting everyone that comes for them, and since their big sisters are on their side, the bureau can't count on the magical wonderteam to help them out here.

Of course, if the TSAB is planning this they better hurry up and do it now. Given enough time to understand the political climate, Athena is practically praying for the TSAB to try and pull this. It's a wonky political road they're taking, balancing on the edges of their morals and standards. Even the slightest kick would spark voices of malcontent from the masses, and Athena tends to use sledgehammers instead of kicks.
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Old 2010-08-28, 18:40   Link #9128
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And this is why I said the pre-Jail Bureau created half of the problems the current Administration is still cleaning up.
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Old 2010-08-28, 19:22   Link #9129
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Unfortunate Problem: these are Book-of-Darkness-Class Lost Logia as far as the Bureau are concerned, and there's no Gil Graham with his own damage limitation plan for them to Obfuscate the Bureau.

The Moment the Bureau thinks they have even the remotest reason to doubt they're anything but totally under control, The Bureau wil Arc-En-Ciel them first and bother about the mess later.

Remember, despite the fact that Gil Graham, the alleged Commanding Officer of the Bureau Navy at that time had an alternative plan, and in spite of the fact that Earth is a non-administrated world, , the Bureau's first response was to immediately sanction the Use of the Arc-En-Ciel on a heavily populated area despite the certainty of huge collateral damage and massive civilian casualties.

That was for One girl with one book. There's more than one such here...

Just Playing Devil's Advocate here, but ultimately, somebody is going to have to call in a lot of favours to make sure it never gets that far

All the while our friend the liuetenant is going to be doidng their level best to make sure it does, of course...
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Old 2010-08-28, 19:49   Link #9130
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Originally Posted by stormturmoil View Post
Remember, despite the fact that Gil Graham, the alleged Commanding Officer of the Bureau Navy at that time had an alternative plan, and in spite of the fact that Earth is a non-administrated world, , the Bureau's first response was to immediately sanction the Use of the Arc-En-Ciel on a heavily populated area despite the certainty of huge collateral damage and massive civilian casualties.
Actually, the bureau's first response was to immediately make sure that an if-all-else-fails solution was installed. The Arc-En-Ciel was a method shown to at least stop the darn thing in the past, but when push came to shove, they still went with an untested plan with an unknown chance of success, cooked up by three nine year olds rather than Arc an unadministered planet.

Arc-En-Ciel was a last resort, not a first. The bureau merely had the forethought to make sure that last resort was available.

So no, the bureau won't just Arc the planet unless they're really really sure there is no other option, and are absolutely sure the alternative would be much much worse. Like I said, I don't buy that everyone in the bureau except for the main cast is an asshole, so the decision to label the girls as a threat itself would yield a lot of question marks from a lot of officials.
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Old 2010-08-28, 20:12   Link #9131
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Except that Gil Graham, who was allegeldy in charge, had already outlined a no-casualties (Bar Hayate, who as far as anybody Could Know was a casualty in any case) alternative plan, yet the Bureau Officers on the scene rejected it out of hand in Favour of Arcing the Planet (complete with requisite collateral and casualties) on the basis of legal technicalities.

The only reason the untested plan was even attempted was because it ultimately posed no ultimate risk to the success of the Arc En-Ciel plan-if it hadn't worked, they'd have simply Arced Earth as planned.

In any case, If the Bureau tries Force on the materials, they Will resist (unless they can be convinced by somebody they trust to go quietly)

If they do resist, that's all the rope the Bureau Needs; And it's unlikely in the extreme that the Bureau has mage assets who could easily take the Materials who would cooperate with such a plan (the groups we can be pretty sure of could do it, wouldn't agree to do it)

In the abscence of Mage assets on the ground who can pacify and retrieve the Materials, what's the Bureau's alternative? (Remembering that Bureau Policy is to Finish all Lost Logia Incidents-with the least loss of life possible- but to Finish them)

I don't like it either, but in the end, Kevin's being Undiplomatic with the Bureau could quite easily result in the BUreau being undiplomatic with Kevin...

And the Bureau has the means to engage in Gunboat UnDiplomacy.
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Old 2010-08-29, 01:52   Link #9132
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Spoiler for :


Bios and more characters coming soon!
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Old 2010-08-29, 02:15   Link #9133
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I'm with Keroko; the TSAB aren't assholes, and they wouldn't use it as a first resort.

However, as sturm said, if they can't get the girls, and someone pushes the envelope hard enough, the Materials will make a mistake somewhere; its not like Athena is there keeping them all in line, all the time. Things can boil to a head once either side's survival is threatened.

But don't worry; we got Captain Picard and the Enterprise for this.
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Old 2010-08-29, 02:29   Link #9134
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Originally Posted by stormturmoil View Post
I don't like it either, but in the end, Kevin's being Undiplomatic with the Bureau could quite easily result in the BUreau being undiplomatic with Kevin...

And the Bureau has the means to engage in Gunboat UnDiplomacy.
Nah, that's called bullying from a shady individual representing a shady official to get into some shady business. The TSAB itself was not wholly or fairly represented by said suspicious man. Should this actually escalate into a full-blown incident, the Bureau may have to contend with a pushy Admiral and her friends, her son, a certain Befriender of Doom, a certain clone of a mad genius, a certain girl with knights and a book o' spells, three (possibly more) displeased sisters, and a ferret.

And possibly this classy lady.
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Old 2010-08-29, 03:40   Link #9135
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Exactly. There are a lot of nice admirals in the fleet. Even though Pre-Strikers TSAB enjoys some shady parts.

Finaly was able to read the Side Dishes, really nice storys.
I still am a noob about the Materials, as I only scratched together information about them from all over the internet, but I got al least enough to get what they are.

Now I can't wait for the next part. ^^
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Old 2010-08-29, 04:47   Link #9136
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Except that Gil Graham, who was allegeldy in charge, had already outlined a no-casualties (Bar Hayate, who as far as anybody Could Know was a casualty in any case) alternative plan, yet the Bureau Officers on the scene rejected it out of hand in Favour of Arcing the Planet (complete with requisite collateral and casualties) on the basis of legal technicalities.

The only reason the untested plan was even attempted was because it ultimately posed no ultimate risk to the success of the Arc En-Ciel plan-if it hadn't worked, they'd have simply Arced Earth as planned.
No he didn't, Chrono rejected the plan because it had a single innocent casualty. Hayate. The only reason they went with the untested plan was because it's success would have a zero-damage, zero-casualty rate.

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In any case, If the Bureau tries Force on the materials, they Will resist (unless they can be convinced by somebody they trust to go quietly)

If they do resist, that's all the rope the Bureau Needs; And it's unlikely in the extreme that the Bureau has mage assets who could easily take the Materials who would cooperate with such a plan (the groups we can be pretty sure of could do it, wouldn't agree to do it)

In the abscence of Mage assets on the ground who can pacify and retrieve the Materials, what's the Bureau's alternative? (Remembering that Bureau Policy is to Finish all Lost Logia Incidents-with the least loss of life possible- but to Finish them)

I don't like it either, but in the end, Kevin's being Undiplomatic with the Bureau could quite easily result in the BUreau being undiplomatic with Kevin...

And the Bureau has the means to engage in Gunboat UnDiplomacy.
And that's the point: The bureau wouldn't even force the materials in the first place. Labeling them as threats that should be locked away or used would already give rise to voices of disagreement and questions in the organization itself. People will ask why it is needed? Are these girls are really a threat?

And again: The bureau has no diplomatic right to force anything on these girls. It's a political storm waiting to happen the moment a malicious voice lets word get out that the TSAB is invading planets and kidnapping children to transform into diabolical weapons. The political implications to this are far more reaching than you're thinking here. Someone with the right mindset can use this to start a huge mess against the bureau.

Your implications assume that the TSAB has full authority to do what they're doing. But the point is that they don't. The girls are for all intents and purposes Japanese citizens of earth. They are not under the TSAB's sphere of influence, the TSAB can't exert any political rights on them. Anything they'd do to this girls would be a violation of the most basic concepts of diplomacy.

No matter how much you want to push it, the TSAB at large are a happy-hippy bunch. There's a few assholes here and there, but for the larger part they're not a shady organization that would casually nuke planets and gives fuck-all to diplomacy. The lieutenant is one of those assholes in question, but the moment he tries anything on these girls he will stumble on a lot of opposition. And not just the members of the cast, but the majority of the TSAB itself will swat him down like the arrogant fly he is.
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Old 2010-08-29, 07:27   Link #9137
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No he didn't, Chrono rejected the plan because it had a single innocent casualty. Hayate. The only reason they went with the untested plan was because it's success would have a zero-damage, zero-casualty rate.
The untested plan wasn't even on the table when Gil Graham's Plan was rejected out of hand in favour of Straight Arcing with all attendent collateral. The untested Plan was only suggested After Arcing had been approved

As for Hayate: As far as anybody could know, she was a Casualty either way: either the book would kill her, or the Arc would. That she would manage to seize administrative rights over the book wasn't something that could have been predicted (neither Chrono, Lieze, Lotte or Gil Graham, the so-called experts, anticipated that)

Plus which, wasn't the whole point of Gil Graham's plan that Hayate Wouldn't be killed (which would have set off the Reincarnation Program and started the whole chase up again) but rather frozen into cryogenic cold sleep? Suspended animation, in other words. No death equals no reincarnation Program activation, and the book can't get away. At which point Gil Graham's idea was to put it in a safe place. Chrono's rather spurious argument was that there was no place safe enough; this compared to Arcing it, thereby causing it to reincarnate who knows where, in who knows who's hands, as if that's better.

So, Rather than accept a plan which puts an otherwise doomed girl (death by book or death by Arc, you choose) Into a non-lethal state and removes the need to use a weapon of mass destruction on a heavily inhabitated stretch of land on a Non-Administrated world; Chrono, acting for the Bureau, instead condemned Hayate to death (Based on everything he could know at that point) AND also forced the necessity to use the Arc-En-Ciel on said stretch of heavily inhabited Stretch of land ona Non-Administrated World.

He's just lucky that:
1: Hayate Managed to Seize control of the book (thus getting her death by his actions off his conscience)
2: Asked the assorted bods gathered for an alternative to a straight Arc, thus getting The Plan
and 3: That it worked.

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And that's the point: The bureau wouldn't even force the materials in the first place. Labeling them as threats that should be locked away or used would already give rise to voices of disagreement and questions in the organization itself. People will ask why it is needed? Are these girls are really a threat?
Depends partly on their actions, however, simply Being classified (technically) as Lost Logia Automatically classes them as a potential threat. They may not be classified as actively dangerous (like those at the StrikerS Auction Sting) but they'll probaby be on a monitoring list

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And again: The bureau has no diplomatic right to force anything on these girls. It's a political storm waiting to happen the moment a malicious voice lets word get out that the TSAB is invading planets and kidnapping children to transform into diabolical weapons. The political implications to this are far more reaching than you're thinking here. Someone with the right mindset can use this to start a huge mess against the bureau.
The Bureau Had no diplomatic right to interfere with the business of Non-Administrated world 97 in either the Jewel seed Case Or the book of Darkness case...Except that Lost Logia, by their rules, automatically gives them that right...and that responsibilty. They don't only consider themselves to have the right to interfere, they consider themselves duty bound by their own rules to do so!

Now, granted, the fact that the Materials are kids could be a political issue...except so was Fate. So was Vita. The materials are victims? so were the Wolkenritter.

Taking action including imprisonment and quasi-forceful recruitment (as in Join or Jail) to kids seems to be accepted as Bureau Practice. (both were done to Fate, at the time 9-10 apparent age, actual age ?). Of course, first there'd need to be a charge to answer, but Fate was going to trial, and Did get sentenced even with mitigating Factors Albeit leniently), so it seems the best idea is for the Materials to keep their noses clean.

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Your implications assume that the TSAB has full authority to do what they're doing. But the point is that they don't. The girls are for all intents and purposes Japanese citizens of earth. They are not under the TSAB's sphere of influence, the TSAB can't exert any political rights on them. Anything they'd do to this girls would be a violation of the most basic concepts of diplomacy.
Except that Lost Logia trumps Prime Directive in every case we see: If this weren't the case, then the Bureau should've (could've, would've) Simply left Earth to be destroyed in either the Jewel Seeds case (Yuuno notwithstanding, Precia attacking a Bureau ship and forcing the issue notwithstanding) Or the Book of Darkness case.
Instead, in both they effectively mounted what amounts to an Insurgency Op onto a Non-Administrated world to pursue their own agenda without regard to the rights of the planet in question.

And the Girls ARE Lost Logia. Whether they are Dangerous Lost Logia is another matter (we know there are non-hazardous classed Lost Logia from the StrikerS Auction Sting Op); better hope they behave when the Bureau inspection committees come round.

Ultimately, The Fact that they are Lost Logia pretty much Guarantees the Bureau will want to keep track of them; if they try for anything more will depend on the overall behaviour and any reports of dangerous/unusual behaviour from the girls.

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No matter how much you want to push it, the TSAB at large are a happy-hippy bunch. There's a few assholes here and there, but for the larger part they're not a shady organization that would casually nuke planets and gives fuck-all to diplomacy. The lieutenant is one of those assholes in question, but the moment he tries anything on these girls he will stumble on a lot of opposition. And not just the members of the cast, but the majority of the TSAB itself will swat him down like the arrogant fly he is.
Just saying, there's minimum standards the Bureau may refuse to go under; they may at least reserve the right to send social workers round periodically to make sure the girls aren't being mistreated (and vice versa), and they may want to put a magic monitor in place to alert them to any ontoward surges of magical power, be they deliberate or otherwise (since after all, the Girls could be quite capable of causing serious damage with their magic even accidentally; Not that it would be their fault necessarily, mind, but accidents happen.)

After all, Even Nanoha, Fate and Hayate/WolkenRitter got probation when first discovered.
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Old 2010-08-29, 09:10   Link #9138
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The untested plan wasn't even on the table when Gil Graham's Plan was rejected out of hand in favour of Straight Arcing with all attendent collateral. The untested Plan was only suggested After Arcing had been approved
Arcing was approved, but a last option when all other options failed. Fact remains that Chrono shut down Graham's plan because Hayate, one little girl, would suffer from it. Chrono was completely unwilling to do endanger even a single life until all options were exhausted.

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Plus which, wasn't the whole point of Gil Graham's plan that Hayate Wouldn't be killed (which would have set off the Reincarnation Program and started the whole chase up again) but rather frozen into cryogenic cold sleep? Suspended animation, in other words. No death equals no reincarnation Program activation, and the book can't get away.
I'm sorry if the difference between 'frozen for all eternity' and 'death' seems to be a little vague to me.

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Just saying, there's minimum standards the Bureau may refuse to go under; they may at least reserve the right to send social workers round periodically to make sure the girls aren't being mistreated (and vice versa), and they may want to put a magic monitor in place to alert them to any ontoward surges of magical power, be they deliberate or otherwise (since after all, the Girls could be quite capable of causing serious damage with their magic even accidentally; Not that it would be their fault necessarily, mind, but accidents happen.)

After all, Even Nanoha, Fate and Hayate/WolkenRitter got probation when first discovered.
Nanoha never got probation. Maybe in novel-verse, but in animeverse there's no sign of anything like that happening. Hell, Lindy blatantly gave her the choice to opt out on the whole magic thing and let the bureau handle things, it was purely Nanoha's choice to stick with the bureau. The Wolkies got probation for, well, being criminals whereas Hayate voluntarily accepted being a part of the trial (the whole 'we're a family, so all are to blame' shtick).

That just leaves Fate, who had neither the excuse of being mind-controlled (Vivio), nor the excuse of being ignorant of the situation (Hayate). And even then she was left out of the trial with a slap on the wrist. Her joining the bureau was, again, her own choice.

I mean, lets count. Aside from the above mentioned cases, we have the numbers. All they got was social rehabilitation, after that 3 of them were let go to join the church (one that is not even that closely affiliated with the TSAB, mind) and four more went living with one of the TSAB's officers. The only ones that got actual sentence? Those that practically said 'I'll just continue doing what we did if you let me go.'

Agito was pretty much free to go, and only stuck around because of Lutecia, who was only there for rehabilitation. Lutecia herself was retired to an uninhabited planet with her mother. I know the argument, but really, considering what she has access to on that planet, calling it imprisonment makes me argue the meaning of the term.

Vivio, being mind-controlled by the enemy, didn't receive any punishment at all.

Moving on to Vivid, we are given Einhart, who after attacking people on the streets, merely gets a slap on the wrist and gets send off to do her thing, despite being an heir to one of the notorious rulers of Belka and his martial art.

Going by the TSAB's track record, if you're a being who was artificially created and forced a purpose or nobody got killed during the fighting, as long as you say you're sorry you're pretty much free to go. The Materials fall into this category. They were created for a purpose, defeated, had no more purpose, the TSAB looked at them and said 'well, if we can get someone to care for them, they can grow up to be normal girls' and left them to do just that.

The lost logia cases were indeed cases of diplomatic questionability, however the excuses for acting without permission are far more reasonable, being that the entire world was at stake. The Materials are safe, pacified, and are being worked into society. There is no excuse to pull them off the planet. If they go berserk and start killing people, then we can start talking about pulling them off earth for the safety of the planet, but before that? No. For all intents and purposes, they are now Japanese girls. The bureau even agreed to this.

And this is the important factor. The majority voice of the TSAB already gave the go ahead sign for the girls to grow up as normal girls on earth. Our dear lieutenant is a minority here, otherwise Kevin would never have gotten parentage over these girls, and they'd have been taken to Mid to be used as weapons to begin with. Again, the TSAB isn't filled with assholes. The most resistance to labeling the Materials as a threat and transporting them off-world would come from within the TSAB itself.

The TSAB has already said 'we're letting these girls grow up as normal Japanese girls.' Will they keep an eye on them? Sure. In fact, they are keeping an eye on them. Kevin, Chrono, Yuuno are already keeping an eye on them. At school Nanoha, Fate and Hayate keep an eye on them, and we know from the manga that the crew of the Arthra also keeps an eye on things. So yes, they keep an eye on things. Will they go ahead and rip these girls out of Kevin's arms? No. They let that chance slip the moment they allowed these girls to go free. The bureau did hold a momentum of power over these girls when they were first arrested. However, the moment the bureau agreed to let these girls integrate into Japanese society and allowed them to obtain Japanese nationality, they let go any and all right to force anything on these girls without permission.
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Old 2010-08-30, 14:22   Link #9139
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Old 2010-08-30, 14:47   Link #9140
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Yeah, that... can screw with a persons feelings. The first seeds of doubt have taken root.
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