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Roots · 2004-02-04, 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashibaka

OOP, or Object-Oriented Programming, is a method of programming that needs to be built into the language. It's too technical to explain without knowledge of how programming works, but anyway, C doesn't support it, and C++, Java, Python, etc. do support it.

The primary purpose of C++ is actually to add object-oriented programming to C. That also makes it a lot more complicated.

I still hold that you ought to learn C first, first because it will get you acquainted some of the various functions of C++, and second because a lot of programs, especially Linux programs, are written in C.

I agree with ashibaka. I learned C first and used it for a year or two before I took a class to learn C++. The C class I used had "A Book on C" as the official text, but honestly I hated that book, and after the 2nd week of class I never opened it.

A book that I highly recommend is "Programming With Objects" by Avinash Kak. (this book assumes that the reader has a good knowledge of C) Professor Kak is my professor here at Purdue, and this book is written very well. In sample code Prof Kak labels lines (#A, #B, #C) and then explains what that line of code is doing. Its the first book that I actually continued reading during the entire semester, and when there was an exam and I needed to study all I had to do was read the book. Oh yeah, Prog W/ Objects teaches you C++ and Java concurrently and compares the benefits and drawbacks of both languages. Only programming book I've ever read (out of say 10 books) that I recommend to others

nooc · 2004-02-04, 22:09

Quote:

BASIC is useless for teaching programming. It does not teach you anything you need to know for today. It is about twenty years old, and therefore it teaches you twenty-year-old programming techniques. So, if you want to learn FORTRAN, I recommend BASIC.

I have to disagree. When first learning a programming language, the most important thing is to understand how to control the program flow. It is very easy to do in basic. The algorithms and techniques used today have not changed much at all. If you want to become a skilled programmer, you have to know the basics.

After you've grasped basic programming it is a trivial thing to learn a new language.

Quote:

OOP, or Object-Oriented Programming, is a method of programming that needs to be built into the language. It's too technical to explain without knowledge of how programming works

Actually, you do not need to know anything about programming to understand OO(P). Our whole world is a big object oriented design. Eg. You don't have to know how the engine of a car works to drive a car. The car is an object. You only know how to use the object.

SiL Eighty · 2004-02-04, 22:10

Thanks again for all the Info. I will most likely take your guy's advice when I start looking into C and C++. For now I'm content w/ HTML. Another Question though. How different are C++, python, java, and HTML/XML?? If you know one does it help out with the other one like with HTML and XML??

nooc · 2004-02-04, 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by SiL Eighty

Thanks again for all the Info. I will most likely take your guy's advice when I start looking into C and C++. For now I'm content w/ HTML. Another Question though. How different are C++, python, java, and HTML/XML?? If you know one does it help out with the other one like with HTML and XML??

HTML and XML are not programming languages. They are only document formats.
You can embed code into a document eg. Javascript into HTML.

lavalyn · 2004-02-04, 22:31

Learning C or C++ without another programming language in your belt is really hard (well I still find it so) - just getting C syntax the way you mean it is tough enough.

If you don't know how to program in an Object Oriented style, I suggest learning Java first. It'll be more strict against making mistakes. So you find them sooner instead of wasting time debugging whether some variable was passed by pointer, reference, or value.

If you don't know what I was talking about above, learn Java. Or Perl. Or Python. Or Ruby. Those are sufficiently powerful to actually program in :-) but keep you from messing up royally.

Shii · 2004-02-04, 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roots

I agree with ashibaka. I learned C first and used it for a year or two before I took a class to learn C++. The C class I used had "A Book on C" as the official text, but honestly I hated that book, and after the 2nd week of class I never opened it.

Thanks for the information. I've never actually read that book, only K&R

So I won't recommend it in the future.

I think C syntax is good to learn because many other languages are based on it, like Perl, Java, and Javascript, and C++ of course. (Maybe you could try learning Perl instead of C.)
It beats hell out of TCL syntax

LynnieS · 2004-02-05, 00:05

Wrox had published an intro book on learning object-oriented programming using Java, or "Beginning Java Objects", but it looks like a new version is now out so I can't recommend it to you. The previous version was decent, though, but it is still a very introductory book. You can do better if you want to start learning OOP.

Unfortunately, I've already boxed up (given away, planned to take, and such) my technical/programming books already...

Perl is another programming language that you might want to try; it was a very easy, IMHO, one to start. For intro books, Damian Conway is a great author; my company hired him to come to NYC and teach for a week, but even without the class, I thought his books were very good.

Never done PHP, and can't comment.

For C and C++, I would recommend that you spend some time in, say, Barnes and Noble and do some reading, and afterwards, decide for yourself if you want to go through C first. If you haven't programmed before, both may be hard to get a handle on initally so either way, you'll still have to struggle up that learning curve. C++ does, though, have more advanced bits than C (d'oh!

) as it's more powerful. I can also find more and better paying jobs with C++ than C, which is nice.

The "A Book on C" text was less... verbose, I thought, than some of the others; it still covered the same topics, though, but example-wise, IMHO, it was a bit lacking. I got more out of it later, but for an intro course, yuck! The Deitel & Deitel texts are expensive, but not too terrible; they seem to use the same examples, though, but changed to reflect the context?

What are you trying to do, however?

SiL Eighty · 2004-02-05, 02:31

Quote:

What are you trying to do, however?

Well for the HTML I wanna learn how to make webpages a such not just for the hell of it. But for The other more complicated stuff is actually for cars. I want knowledge in this so when I'm done getting my bachelors in mechanical engineering I can say Ya i can reconfigure the Program to that ECU to make this engine run better bleh blah blah type stuff. I want to basically be able to write programs so i can apply what i know about cars from my degree and apply that Engine Management systems and what not. Also I like to be able to mess with everything i work with its kinda of a habit. If I cant take it apart and put it together again than imma learn how to.

LOL ashibaka

Quote:

Reason: despite the avatar, sil is male

Cz · 2004-02-05, 02:40

If you decide to learn C or C++ and want to standardize the compilers you use to compile your programs in Unix/Linux and Windows, try MinGW for Windows. It's basically a Windows port of the popular gcc/g++ compiler system on Unix/Linux. It's free so you do not have to pay for Visual C++, and if your C/C++ code compiles on Linux, it should compile on Windows as well unless you use platform-specific libraries like the Windows API.

I find this very useful since I can bring my code from Windows into Linux and vice versa without problems.

LynnieS · 2004-02-05, 07:50

Sil Eighty - Embedded programming? Umm, you should be able to do this with either C or C++, but most of the text that I've seen on the subject are in C. You should, then, start here as it'll be easier to pick up learning material.

I've never touched this subject - and have spent my money on other subjects - but I can't imagine that you'll need much of the OO aspect of C++ for programming modules, chips, and such.

***NightWish*** · 2004-02-05, 10:34

ECUs? Embedded programming? ... Humm, you're talking parallel C here; a different ball-game to your regular ANSI-C. I would suggest you do what the others have said and start with the foundations though -- plain ANSI-C won't fail you

. Once you've "mastered" (heh) that, moving onto parallel C will be easier. You'll be able to focus on concept of parallelism and the issues it raises without worrying about trying to learn the syntax.

The only other thing I would suggest you do is read: yes focus on learning C, but read around the subject of process control -- it is a lot more than the software and I'm sure it will interest and focus you. It would also be worth your while looking at things like VHDL and similar ASIC programming languages... as that might be what you'll use while working on ECUs and the like.

Megane · 2004-02-05, 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by nooc

I have to disagree. When first learning a programming language, the most important thing is to understand how to control the program flow. It is very easy to do in basic. The algorithms and techniques used today have not changed much at all. If you want to become a skilled programmer, you have to know the basics.
...

Program flow? In BASIC?! Can you say goto?

Oh wait, you can...

SiL Eighty · 2004-02-05, 13:15

LOL I see more and more things I have to look up. All in one day :eek3: Oh well, I need to know this stuff so I can get a job at NISMO

. That be great lol. Anyway I'm gunna take a college class for C than over the summer. Any info on what might the class might be called and what classes to avoid?? 'Cuz i know they dont have any classes saying "Data Prgraming C" bleh blah blah, and the programing classes they useually have are shady. You dont exactly know what ur going to learn till u get the book -.-'' . Well thats at the Community College anyway.

LynnieS · 2004-02-05, 14:01

My intro class for C programming was called just that. It really doesn't matter what the name is, though, but try and get the course syllabus first to see what you'll be covering in the sessions. If you're still in high school, I would also see if your college/university will take that class's grade for one of the programming requirements, if your department has one. It should be an easy A if you have to take an intro course again, but it's still a waste of your time and money, IMHO.

Embedded programming is, as you may gather from Nightwish's post, pretty specialized. I have a M.E. degree, and I don't remember ever seeing a course for it in my department, though. Of course, it could just be my not being interested in this sort of thing back then.

This sounds more like an E.E. or CS track, to be honest.

SiL Eighty · 2004-02-05, 17:18

I'm trying to get my Bachelors in M.E. on the side while still learning the stuff for my current job.

Mr. Bushido · 2004-02-18, 01:28

i dont know how long this thread was inactive, but im bumping it cuz i need help too.

i started out with C++ (and currently am learning)... from what i read on this forum, its a horrible language to start out with. not to mention my text book sucks ass, and i wonder if my teacher knows C++ himself. What book is currently the best in ur opinion for C++? also wat other languages should i learn to make C++ a less of a pain in the arse?

im still in high school, but i plan on working on the computer field. Not sure which. But im thinking of something along the lines of ethical hacker/network security to a software developer. I want to get a head start so it wont feel like too much is headed at me at once when im off to college. So wat languages are a "must" to learn? and can anyone recommend me on how i should tackle at cmp programming? im sure there are more ppl here who have started programming at high school or even younger.

EDIT: i heard BASIC is obsolete... and it think my C++ books says that Pascal is not really important anymore... is this true?

btw... wats the difference between linux and windows? ive never seen, yet alone used linux before. Ive only used macs at the school library. -_- isnt it really hard to run lots of programs and games on linux?

Forse · 2004-02-18, 05:34

Well C++ is not really that bad to start from. Many languages are based on C++ like Java (it's not based on C++, but if you know C++ learning Java is a lot easier) and Visual C++. I would suggest a good book, but I dunno any good ones in english (amazon might).

Pascal?...Well delphi is based on it and Kylix is delphi for linux. Delphi/Kylix is basicly easy way to code GUI apps for both linux and windows.

As for linux http://www.linux.org/info/index.html

Prince of Chronics · 2004-02-18, 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashibaka

You can learn HTML and XML here:
http://www.w3schools.com/
Remember to always write proper, standard HTML, so that everyone can read it. W3Schools will teach you the right way.

That URL is one of my favorite links on the web... it was pretty damn helpful when I was doin that sort of stuff in my first semester....

LynnieS · 2004-02-18, 06:35

Zoro - For C++, I would recommend "The C++ Programming Language" by Bjarne Stroustrup or "Thinking in C++". There are tons of books on the subject, though, but I prefer these two. I don't know of anyone working in either BASIC or Pascal, but VB.NET is another story.

Cz · 2004-02-19, 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zoro

i dont know how long this thread was inactive, but im bumping it cuz i need help too.

i started out with C++ (and currently am learning)... from what i read on this forum, its a horrible language to start out with. not to mention my text book sucks ass, and i wonder if my teacher knows C++ himself. What book is currently the best in ur opinion for C++? also wat other languages should i learn to make C++ a less of a pain in the arse?

im still in high school, but i plan on working on the computer field. Not sure which. But im thinking of something along the lines of ethical hacker/network security to a software developer. I want to get a head start so it wont feel like too much is headed at me at once when im off to college. So wat languages are a "must" to learn? and can anyone recommend me on how i should tackle at cmp programming? im sure there are more ppl here who have started programming at high school or even younger.

EDIT: i heard BASIC is obsolete... and it think my C++ books says that Pascal is not really important anymore... is this true?

btw... wats the difference between linux and windows? ive never seen, yet alone used linux before. Ive only used macs at the school library. -_- isnt it really hard to run lots of programs and games on linux?

I started out with BASIC before high school, then moved on to C/C++. Took me quite some time to learn that well because I didn't have a teacher. However, knowing C/C++ early helped me in my first few courses at college because those languages are the staple of programming classes. Some networking courses might use Java, but C/C++ are essential to know.

BASIC is obsolete, and has been replaced by Visual Basic, which is derived from BASIC but is much more powerful and is used to write GUI windows programs using Microsoft's compiler. Pascal was used in schools as the language of instruction for computer programming, but it has been replaced by C++.

2004-02-04, 22:10	Link #23
SiL Eighty Lateral G's Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: In a Green Coffee Cup	Thanks again for all the Info. I will most likely take your guy's advice when I start looking into C and C++. For now I'm content w/ HTML. Another Question though. How different are C++, python, java, and HTML/XML?? If you know one does it help out with the other one like with HTML and XML?? __________________

2004-02-05, 10:34	Link #31
*NightWish* Better think awhile… AnimeSuki Site Staff Moderator Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: U.K. London Age: 33	ECUs? Embedded programming? ... Humm, you're talking parallel C here; a different ball-game to your regular ANSI-C. I would suggest you do what the others have said and start with the foundations though -- plain ANSI-C won't fail you . Once you've "mastered" (heh) that, moving onto parallel C will be easier. You'll be able to focus on concept of parallelism and the issues it raises without worrying about trying to learn the syntax. The only other thing I would suggest you do is read: yes focus on learning C, but read around the subject of process control -- it is a lot more than the software and I'm sure it will interest and focus you. It would also be worth your while looking at things like VHDL and similar ASIC programming languages... as that might be what you'll use while working on ECUs and the like. __________________ Lay down on the ground, and let the tears run from you, crying to the grass and trees and heaven, finally on your knees; Let me live again…

2004-02-05, 13:15	Link #33
SiL Eighty Lateral G's Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: In a Green Coffee Cup	LOL I see more and more things I have to look up. All in one day :eek3: Oh well, I need to know this stuff so I can get a job at NISMO . That be great lol. Anyway I'm gunna take a college class for C than over the summer. Any info on what might the class might be called and what classes to avoid?? 'Cuz i know they dont have any classes saying "Data Prgraming C" bleh blah blah, and the programing classes they useually have are shady. You dont exactly know what ur going to learn till u get the book -.-'' . Well thats at the Community College anyway. __________________

2004-02-05, 17:18	Link #35
SiL Eighty Lateral G's Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: In a Green Coffee Cup	I'm trying to get my Bachelors in M.E. on the side while still learning the stuff for my current job. __________________ Last edited by SiL Eighty; 2004-03-10 at 18:39.

2004-02-18, 01:28	Link #36
Mr. Bushido Zoro Join Date: Nov 2003	i dont know how long this thread was inactive, but im bumping it cuz i need help too. i started out with C++ (and currently am learning)... from what i read on this forum, its a horrible language to start out with. not to mention my text book sucks ass, and i wonder if my teacher knows C++ himself. What book is currently the best in ur opinion for C++? also wat other languages should i learn to make C++ a less of a pain in the arse? im still in high school, but i plan on working on the computer field. Not sure which. But im thinking of something along the lines of ethical hacker/network security to a software developer. I want to get a head start so it wont feel like too much is headed at me at once when im off to college. So wat languages are a "must" to learn? and can anyone recommend me on how i should tackle at cmp programming? im sure there are more ppl here who have started programming at high school or even younger. EDIT: i heard BASIC is obsolete... and it think my C++ books says that Pascal is not really important anymore... is this true? btw... wats the difference between linux and windows? ive never seen, yet alone used linux before. Ive only used macs at the school library. -_- isnt it really hard to run lots of programs and games on linux? __________________ formerly known as Zoro Part of the One Piece Forum Shichibukai. Capt. of the Santoryu Kaizokudan Last edited by Zoro; 2004-02-18 at 02:43.

2004-02-04, 22:31	Link #25
lavalyn Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004	Learning C or C++ without another programming language in your belt is really hard (well I still find it so) - just getting C syntax the way you mean it is tough enough. If you don't know how to program in an Object Oriented style, I suggest learning Java first. It'll be more strict against making mistakes. So you find them sooner instead of wasting time debugging whether some variable was passed by pointer, reference, or value. If you don't know what I was talking about above, learn Java. Or Perl. Or Python. Or Ruby. Those are sufficiently powerful to actually program in :-) but keep you from messing up royally.

2004-02-05, 00:05	Link #27
LynnieS Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: China	Wrox had published an intro book on learning object-oriented programming using Java, or "Beginning Java Objects", but it looks like a new version is now out so I can't recommend it to you. The previous version was decent, though, but it is still a very introductory book. You can do better if you want to start learning OOP. Unfortunately, I've already boxed up (given away, planned to take, and such) my technical/programming books already... Perl is another programming language that you might want to try; it was a very easy, IMHO, one to start. For intro books, Damian Conway is a great author; my company hired him to come to NYC and teach for a week, but even without the class, I thought his books were very good. Never done PHP, and can't comment. For C and C++, I would recommend that you spend some time in, say, Barnes and Noble and do some reading, and afterwards, decide for yourself if you want to go through C first. If you haven't programmed before, both may be hard to get a handle on initally so either way, you'll still have to struggle up that learning curve. C++ does, though, have more advanced bits than C (d'oh! ) as it's more powerful. I can also find more and better paying jobs with C++ than C, which is nice. The "A Book on C" text was less... verbose, I thought, than some of the others; it still covered the same topics, though, but example-wise, IMHO, it was a bit lacking. I got more out of it later, but for an intro course, yuck! The Deitel & Deitel texts are expensive, but not too terrible; they seem to use the same examples, though, but changed to reflect the context? What are you trying to do, however?

2004-02-05, 02:40	Link #29
Cz Needs more sleep~ Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: #animesuki	If you decide to learn C or C++ and want to standardize the compilers you use to compile your programs in Unix/Linux and Windows, try MinGW for Windows. It's basically a Windows port of the popular gcc/g++ compiler system on Unix/Linux. It's free so you do not have to pay for Visual C++, and if your C/C++ code compiles on Linux, it should compile on Windows as well unless you use platform-specific libraries like the Windows API. I find this very useful since I can bring my code from Windows into Linux and vice versa without problems.

2004-02-05, 07:50	Link #30
LynnieS Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: China	Sil Eighty - Embedded programming? Umm, you should be able to do this with either C or C++, but most of the text that I've seen on the subject are in C. You should, then, start here as it'll be easier to pick up learning material. I've never touched this subject - and have spent my money on other subjects - but I can't imagine that you'll need much of the OO aspect of C++ for programming modules, chips, and such.

2004-02-05, 14:01	Link #34
LynnieS Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: China	My intro class for C programming was called just that. It really doesn't matter what the name is, though, but try and get the course syllabus first to see what you'll be covering in the sessions. If you're still in high school, I would also see if your college/university will take that class's grade for one of the programming requirements, if your department has one. It should be an easy A if you have to take an intro course again, but it's still a waste of your time and money, IMHO. Embedded programming is, as you may gather from Nightwish's post, pretty specialized. I have a M.E. degree, and I don't remember ever seeing a course for it in my department, though. Of course, it could just be my not being interested in this sort of thing back then. This sounds more like an E.E. or CS track, to be honest.

2004-02-18, 05:34	Link #37
Forse r00t for life Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: /dev/null	Well C++ is not really that bad to start from. Many languages are based on C++ like Java (it's not based on C++, but if you know C++ learning Java is a lot easier) and Visual C++. I would suggest a good book, but I dunno any good ones in english (amazon might). Pascal?...Well delphi is based on it and Kylix is delphi for linux. Delphi/Kylix is basicly easy way to code GUI apps for both linux and windows. As for linux http://www.linux.org/info/index.html __________________

2004-02-18, 06:35	Link #39
LynnieS Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: China	Zoro - For C++, I would recommend "The C++ Programming Language" by Bjarne Stroustrup or "Thinking in C++". There are tons of books on the subject, though, but I prefer these two. I don't know of anyone working in either BASIC or Pascal, but VB.NET is another story.