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Old 2008-05-26, 19:28   Link #21
WanderingKnight
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Over here the people at BuenosAiresLibre.org are slowly but steadily starting to build a free, mesh-based wireless intranet for the whole city. It's a very ambitious project, but many people have joined in the past year. What they basically do is build a sort of P2P system using home computers as servers. All you need to do is set up a wireless router and have an antenna pointing at the right direction and you're set.

Of course, it only works for local content, but it's a good way to relieve the pressure on the internet for content that is clearly only targeted at local users.
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Old 2008-05-26, 20:30   Link #22
Ichihara Asako
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
That's the main strength of Korea: Almost everything we do is so localized, that we rarely rely on international lines for torrenting and stuff, meaning our external connection is like a somewhat empty highway.


The only main problem we have is PRC, which tends to use their outside connections a bit.....
Yeah, it works fine for tiny, well wired countries with local language content nobody outside of them wants, and few inside care about the rest of the world (Japan is another example, blazing fast local speeds, terrible international, but since very few Japanese people care about non-Japanese content, and all Japanese content is local... well, non-issue)

However, the majority of the world is English speaking or requires access to English content outside of their country (as a second or third+ language) and international links impact that. You yourself, being Korean, on this site, would be impacted by backbone congestion between Korea and AS. 5 minute page loads for you. As an extreme example, anyway.
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Old 2008-05-26, 20:49   Link #23
Kang Seung Jae
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichihara Asako View Post
However, the majority of the world is English speaking or requires access to English content outside of their country (as a second or third+ language) and international links impact that. You yourself, being Korean, on this site, would be impacted by backbone congestion between Korea and AS. 5 minute page loads for you. As an extreme example, anyway.
Yes, but when the connections between East Asia and the US is almost empty, only a MASSIVE congestion can stop East Asians from enjoying what is going on in the US.

From what I'm seeing, the congestion will mostly affect the local networks of the English speaking countries, and will not block the road to the actual connection between the servers and the Asian connections. I could be wrong, but then, I'm a very small minority in one of the most connect country in the world.
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Old 2008-05-26, 20:55   Link #24
yezhanquan
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Here in Singapore, no problems for me at least.
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Old 2008-05-26, 20:59   Link #25
Eviltape
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Join Date: Oct 2007
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We in the USA have a bad connection due to the sheer difficulty of closely networking the landmass that is North America. I haven't ever had a bandwith limit, and FiOS is nice enough to let me enjoy upload speeds in the hundreds of kilobytes. I have experienced a slowdown from my first few months with FiOS, though. Must be everyone stealing mah local bandwith. :P
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Old 2008-05-27, 03:05   Link #26
Jaden
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Dunno, maybe there's false problems because people have too much "potential speed". I'm pretty happy with a 1mb DSL line, works very stable and always to the limit. :P

What more do you need anyway? it's enough to download anime faster than I can watch it and there's nothing I can't download overnight.
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Old 2008-05-27, 03:34   Link #27
Solace
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The speed is a lie. The real reason there is congestion is just like highway traffic, all the hubs are packed with people trying to get in and out at the same time. Theoretical speed ends up being a kind of false advertising because many ISP's only invest enough in hubs to keep from things from grinding to a halt. It's a win for them, the few power users in each area that are affected don't compare to the overall bandwidth savings of capping everyone else without them knowing about it.

The problem is that content on the internet is growing way faster than predicted. Especially with the rise of p2p, streaming, storage sites, flash/java, etc., the stress is causing a lot of companies to start sweating. They either invest in upgrading, or face being left behind by companies that do. But the cost is expensive, so there's been a lot of government lobbying for assistance.

My ISP spent the last decade upgrading the city to fiber optics. They don't cap speeds and the price is decent. I pay 40 bucks a month for a 10 meg connection.



I don't actually live in MN but it's the closest hub for the test. Do I see those speeds? Not often. But my downloads generally run between 500k to 1 meg a sec. It's probably overkill but it's great to have.
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Old 2008-05-27, 15:48   Link #28
FatalMemory
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Perhaps there should be an international 'Everyone download a file at the same time day'.
That might shock a few ISPs into loosening their senseless grip on bandwidth, at least in countries with download limits.
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Old 2008-05-27, 20:23   Link #29
Liddo-kun
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Not threatened at all. I live in the Philippines.
I download anime everyday at a slow but steady speed of 60 kb/s.

Except for the rare times my Isp provider makes routine maintenance on their system, everything is fine.

Last edited by Liddo-kun; 2008-05-28 at 05:26.
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Old 2008-05-27, 23:48   Link #30
Goshin
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wow somehow i feel this threat is much the y2k threat. or at least I hope so. one thing i don't want to happen is to have the government butting in more then they need to to regulate stuff. they have a year and a half to fix it, i'm sure they won't wait for it to happen then start working. i'm sure china and other countries like china won'y be affected much as i don't think they are allowed to see sites out of the country.
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Old 2008-05-28, 05:50   Link #31
Radiosity
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Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
they have a year and a half to fix it, i'm sure they won't wait for it to happen then start working
Are you serious? That's exactly what people always do. "Not a problem now so we won't bother doing anything unless it becomes a problem later".
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Old 2008-05-28, 09:17   Link #32
Meirin
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Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
i'm sure china and other countries like china won'y be affected much as i don't think they are allowed to see sites out of the country.
That's a misconception. The level of censoring enforced by the "Great Firewall" isn't the same as "[not] allowed to see sites out of the country" and there's always VPNs and proxies. Also, China's internet can be slow due to internal congestion amongst other issues.

I miss the T1 connection I had in my college room. Now I'm supposedly on a 8mb service but torrenting just takes forever. Usenet is still pretty speedy though.
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Old 2008-05-28, 22:44   Link #33
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Radiosity View Post
Are you serious? That's exactly what people always do. "Not a problem now so we won't bother doing anything unless it becomes a problem later".
It's not just what people always do, it's what the telecomm companies have already done. They received quite a bit of money from the government (I believe it was in the billions) some time ago (90's?) to upgrade their infrastructure. Based on what others have said and based on what things seem like, they basically took the money and didn't really do much with their infrastructure.
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Old 2008-05-28, 22:58   Link #34
Ichihara Asako
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
It's not just what people always do, it's what the telecomm companies have already done. They received quite a bit of money from the government (I believe it was in the billions) some time ago (90's?) to upgrade their infrastructure. Based on what others have said and based on what things seem like, they basically took the money and didn't really do much with their infrastructure.
They have upgraded infrastructure, however the growth rate is beyond what anybody expected, I think. The amount of data moved across the internet these days could never have been predicted in the 90s when there was next to no content online, comparatively. P2P aside, just the 'web' itself, we have very graphically intense sites, image galleries, flash, streaming video, dynamic pages, all sorts.

In the 90s I'd be lucky to go through a couple meg a day in my browser. Just today, I've used 70Mb since I woke up a few hours ago. This year to date, I've used over 30 gig... and I don't stream video. I hate video streaming. That's just from forums (granted, image threads) and galleries, webcomics etc. Just browser traffic.

The modern internet is a very bandwidth intensive place, whether people realise it or not. The bandwidth has to come from somewhere, and a lot of people seem to think it will always be there. Well, guess what? It won't.

A lot of people take water for granted, but I live in a country where every capital city is on severe water restrictions; nobody's allowed to water their lawns, can't wash their cars, and are charged huge excess fees if they use too much in the house (bathing, toilets, etc etc). Why? Because nobody respected the supply, and there was not enough planning put in to the infrastructure when the cities were built and the way people have lived for the past 100 years.

The internet is exactly the same. Bandwidth is a resource just like water. It has to be managed properly or it can run out.
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Old 2008-05-28, 23:11   Link #35
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Ichihara Asako View Post
The internet is exactly the same. Bandwidth is a resource just like water. It has to be managed properly or it can run out.
I disagree with this analogy. The amount of drinkable water is very limited. Bandwidth isn't a natural resource - make more efficient networks and build more connections and you've increased the amount of available bandwidth.

People couldn't have imagined what the internet would be like today, you're right. The companies are still to blame for not doing enough. Downloading and going to bandwidth-intensive websites isn't abusing your resources, it's doing things the way that business is adapting to. Much of this is likely the way of the future. The companies are holding that back. Bandwidth-rationing and being content with what we have today isn't the answer - we don't need to build desalination plants to create more bandwidth, we need to lay more fiber.
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Old 2008-05-28, 23:18   Link #36
Ichihara Asako
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Water usage in modern society is highly inefficient, and the systems very poorly planned (especially dumping 10+ litres of clean water down toilets every flush) but that's really a debate for another thread. I was using the analogy because they are similar. Water can be recycled, there are desalinisation options, we can use it more efficiently, and the infrastructure can be upgraded to not waste as much and to serve people better.

That's the same as laying new fiber, decreasing loads with dynamic compression methods, and overall increasing efficiency. While yeah, they are different things, naturally, people won't die without the internet (though withdrawl symptoms may drive some postal) the lack of management and foresight concerning infrastructure is the issue at hand.
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Old 2008-05-28, 23:28   Link #37
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichihara Asako View Post
Water usage in modern society is highly inefficient, and the systems very poorly planned (especially dumping 10+ litres of clean water down toilets every flush) but that's really a debate for another thread. I was using the analogy because they are similar. Water can be recycled, there are desalinisation options, we can use it more efficiently, and the infrastructure can be upgraded to not waste as much and to serve people better.

That's the same as laying new fiber, decreasing loads with dynamic compression methods, and overall increasing efficiency.
I was thinking that "get more water" equates to rerouting rivers and/or transporting water out of rivers. Of course if you do that it results in negative impacts on the environment, which may then result in the river drying up. That, and there are a finite number of rivers overall. On the other hand, if we build enough we have a theoretically limitless amount of bandwidth.

Efficiency isn't the answer when it comes to the internet. We're moving to more efficient compression mechanisms for webpages and such, sure, but it sounds like what you're recommending is that we should perhaps not have things like streaming video, or image-intensive sites. Perhaps we shouldn't have technologies like video chatting or VOIP, either? Those are pretty bandwidth-intensive, after all.

I don't think we should just be content with the bandwidth that we have, because some of the technologies that I mentioned formed because the bandwidth was there. We wouldn't be able to do those things on slower connections. I'm sure we'll be able to do things that we can't even imagine right now when we have more bandwidth. The bandwidth "shortage" has a very real, non-controversial solution. And let me tell you, when the ISP raises my service bill while providing the same advertised speeds and then they start to cut into what I can do with my connection - well, I expect them to use that money to make things faster and get rid of that shortage! Keep the prices the same and cut back our speeds otherwise, you know?
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Old 2008-05-28, 23:44   Link #38
Ichihara Asako
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Of course not, we can't get by with current bandwidth. We will always need more. Esecially moving in to the realm of HD video now, hurting more than ever. And it will only continue to get worse. But the infrastructure has to be managed well and we have to predict growth on a more realistic level (ie build infrastructure far exceeding expectations, so there is room for growth) among other things.

While I'd be happy to see video streaming and VoIP gone, that's not going to happen either; they're here to stay, and will continue to grow and increase bandwidth loads so also have to be taken in to account. With more bandwidth available (such as most of the world having > 1.5Mbit speeds now, if not > 8) comes more content, which in turn drives the need for more bandwidth. It's a never ending cycle.

I've been on the internet for a very, very long time. I've progressed up the ladder of speeds, from a 1200 baud cradle modem to 24Mbit Annex-M ADSL2, though I'm now stuck with 8Mbit G.DMT ADSL. Watching the evolution over the past three decades has been fascinating, especially post-boom, and in to the realm of broadband we're in now, entering the HD era. It will only continue to grow and change. But to accommodate that growth the infrastructure has to be managed well.

Though at least now the internet is a standard utility and everybody knows how widely it's used and how important it is, back pre-boom nobody had any idea it was going to be like this. So hopefully the future will continue to smoothly unfold and we won't end up bottlenecked.
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Old 2008-05-29, 05:13   Link #39
Liddo-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
I was thinking that "get more water" equates to rerouting rivers and/or transporting water out of rivers. Of course if you do that it results in negative impacts on the environment, which may then result in the river drying up. That, and there are a finite number of rivers overall. On the other hand, if we build enough we have a theoretically limitless amount of bandwidth.
I agree on what Ledgem said about theorotically limitless bandwith.
As previously said by someone on this thread, "if there is demand, it will be supplied".
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Old 2008-05-29, 10:58   Link #40
Mystique
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Join Date: May 2008
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Originally Posted by Radiosity View Post
The uk sucks for internet, period. I'm on an 8mb connection that runs more like 512k during the day a lot of the time (thankfully o2 are going to be in my area in a month or so, 20mb here I come ). The entire infrastructure needs to be completely overhauled, it's not like the net was ever designed for what we're now using it for.
I'm on a 24 mb "said" connection and i get 11mb max.
But it runs, no caps and is only 18 per month, just wish i lived closer to the stupid telephone exchange tho -.-

But yeah, i heard the same news reports, the demand for BW has grown crazily over the last 5 years, especially with the intensive use of youtube and other online streaming sites, the standard broadband usage in the UK can't cope with the traffic.
As mentioned before, the estimate to overhaul the system here would go into billions and BT aren't prepared to deal with that, just yet, but Virgin Media are the first major company to offer fibre optic... 20 for 8mb guarenteed as far as i remember, they keep on bugging me to switch to their package but i keep on refusing.

I wouldn't say the internet is crap in the UK, by no means as fast as Norway or Sweden or others, but seeing as most users outside of cities would be in <insert random name>+shire land, where the demand wouldn't be so heavy, I guess it'd be difficult to implement a new system for the present time.

But with the awareness of skype, MMORPG's, Youtube and the rest, no doubt the internet will keep on growing and growing...
Who knows where we'll be in 5 years time~
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Last edited by Mystique; 2008-05-29 at 12:37.
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