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Old 2010-04-04, 18:51   Link #1981
Cherry_Lover
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From what I can tell, he can monitor where Sakura is, but I don't think he's capable of monitoring what she's doing or saying, at least not completely. After all, his crest worms don't have ears (and, even if he can hear through his main worm, it's buried inside her chest), and her mind is too strong for him to control it. He can probably pick up some details (if she was, for example, running, he might be able to work that out from her heartbeat), but I don't think he can hear everything she's saying, and he certainly can't see what she sees. That's enough to ensure that she can't run away (and he's mentally conditioned her to obey him and (probably) to distrust Rin, plus he's made it obvious (with Kariya, for example) what would happen to anyone who tries to save her if they fail, so she's unlikely to be able to go and seek help), but it's not enough for him to work out how close she is to Shirou.

Judging by the way she speaks about it in HF, Sakura seems to be under the impression that she's fooled him by claiming that she needs to observe Shirou as a potential master, even though she knows that he's not a proper magus (since she's seen him practicing), which simply couldn't be true if he knew everything that she said or heard.
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Old 2010-04-05, 23:07   Link #1982
Genix
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So, after months of playing it, I finally completed the PC game, gotten all tiger stamps and all 5 endings, as well as all CGIs unlocked.
The thing is, I don't remember where, and I'm not that sure anymore actually, but I read that there's one extra "event", CGI or something, obtained at the very end of the Fate route, and it appears only once you completed the entire game.
Well, if this is the case, can someone tell me how you get it if there in fact is such a thing?
PS: Not talking about the onsen extra.
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Old 2010-04-05, 23:30   Link #1983
Cherry_Lover
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Well, there's something called "Last Episode", which is basically a delayed good end to the Fate route, but it's only on the PS2 (Realta Nua) version, although there does exist a patch to add it to the PC version.
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Old 2010-04-09, 11:30   Link #1984
Arbitres
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Now now. It's his decision to do what he thinks is best or more entertaining. Encroaching on that right is considered forceful and rude, among other things.

He has the choice to decide, so let him. I just started the VN myself, and it is quite different then from the anime. I've yet to pick up the manga, as I don't usually read them. That itself being my choice.

To be honest, it's a matter of likes and dislikes. He seems unfond of the idea of playing Visual Novels for entertainment -- he might have stereotyped them as only hentai-filled pointlessness. Or he may actually have a reason for his preferences over VN's. I'm afraid the only one that knows is him. We shouldn't be judgmental.

A person can have a perspective on a anime series or preference on entertainment so long as it's factual and not just squabbling or bias. This may very well be bias, but I can't really force him into being a fanatic fSN, since I myself not being one. I just like the characters, actually. The anime butchered the story, apparently.

Overall: Let him choose however and whichever he decides to engage FSN, if at all. You can certainly be my guest and force him, though that wouldn't help in the long run.

You can stand on even round with him once he starts talking trash. So far, he hasn't.

Just to get that out of the way. Off topic, and I'm sorry. Though nipping it in the bud seems the best way to do this. (from my experience at least.)


Let me ask my own question: Who would win against one another, Fate Lancer or Zero Lancer? Since they both are Lancer class and both are skilled. I think I would like to know the logistics of who would win.
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Old 2010-04-09, 12:32   Link #1985
orangejuicetang
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According to Nasu, since Zero Lancer has a better master he would win if they fought. But if they fought in Ireland, Fate Lancer would win.

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A. Diarmuid has excellent Master backup (Prana supply amount), so in terms of a pure battle of firepower (this is probably referring to Prana output to stats, not NP strength), so the battle should go to Diarmuid. In Japan, both of them get zero bonuses from terrain effect (recognition factor), but if they were fighting in Ireland.......probably Cu Chulainn.
Although technically, since Diarmuid has crappy luck, he has no defense against Gae Bolg...
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Old 2010-04-09, 12:44   Link #1986
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So the recognition factor comes from fighting on their homeland, not from actual recognition? In that case... no one other than Japanese heroes (in this case, Servant Assassin and maybe Archer?) would get a recognition bonus. That seems counter intuitive to what was described in the novel.

For example, why would Ilya summon Hercules instead of, say... Susanoo?
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Old 2010-04-09, 13:04   Link #1987
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by Arbitres View Post
Now now. It's his decision to do what he thinks is best or more entertaining. Encroaching on that right is considered forceful and rude, among other things.
I can hardly force him to play the game now, can I? Of course it's his choice. I'm just pointing out that the game is much, much better.

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To be honest, it's a matter of likes and dislikes. He seems unfond of the idea of playing Visual Novels for entertainment -- he might have stereotyped them as only hentai-filled pointlessness. Or he may actually have a reason for his preferences over VN's. I'm afraid the only one that knows is him. We shouldn't be judgmental.
Yeah, which is why I asked....

If he's got a good reason why he doesn't want to play a Visual Novel, then fair enough. But, if he's just going "OMG, it's not a proper game", then that's just silly, and that's the impression I got. I can't see any good reason why you'd be happy to read a manga but not a Visual Novel.

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The anime butchered the story, apparently.
It did, horribly. Plus it ignores the best characters.

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Overall: Let him choose however and whichever he decides to engage FSN, if at all. You can certainly be my guest and force him, though that wouldn't help in the long run.
Of course it's his choice. But, in the end, he's the one who's going to miss out on the full story of FSN. The anime is just about worth watching, but the game is so much better.

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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
So the recognition factor comes from fighting on their homeland, not from actual recognition? In that case... no one other than Japanese heroes (in this case, Servant Assassin and maybe Archer?) would get a recognition bonus. That seems counter intuitive to what was described in the novel.
No, but an Irish hero is obviously going to be better known in Ireland than in Japan. The "terrain bonus" thing is presumably a case of recognising the surroundings, and thus being better at fighting there. Or, alternately, both of them are unknown in Japan (I'm British, and I'd never heard of them), but Cu Chulainn is more famous in Ireland.

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For example, why would Ilya summon Hercules instead of, say... Susanoo?
Because the strength of the hero doesn't come just from their popularity. It comes from their original strength as well. Hercules is half-God, so he's extremely powerful. Plus, he's pretty famous even in Japan, I'd imagine.
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Old 2010-04-09, 14:03   Link #1988
GDB
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
No, but an Irish hero is obviously going to be better known in Ireland than in Japan. The "terrain bonus" thing is presumably a case of recognising the surroundings, and thus being better at fighting there. Or, alternately, both of them are unknown in Japan (I'm British, and I'd never heard of them), but Cu Chulainn is more famous in Ireland.
Okay, that makes sense. Thought he was saying the recognition boost was only a terrain based effect.

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Because the strength of the hero doesn't come just from their popularity. It comes from their original strength as well. Hercules is half-God, so he's extremely powerful. Plus, he's pretty famous even in Japan, I'd imagine.
Well, Susanoo was a full god (equivalent to Poseidon, I would believe, if not stronger), and he'd naturally be even more well known in Japan than Hercules. But it makes more sense to use universally known an unknown heroes to give a grander feeling to the story.
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Old 2010-04-09, 14:13   Link #1989
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God's were probably restricted from being Heroic Spirits... Or they are but aren't allowed to be Servants in Grail Wars because of their strength.

Hercules and Gilgamesh have divine blood in them. I do believe they are incredibly hard to kill as a result. Imagine a full-blooded god, not just a God King or a demigod.. But an actual deity. There is a word commonly used where I came from

Rigged

Susano'o would be difficult to beat, if outright impossible. He was a very jealous and malicious deity, imagine what he'd do if he was a servant but wanted the Grailf or himself - while finding out other people wanted it to. As in, jealous and selfish.

If any became a epic spirit it would be Nobunaga or the general Yoshitsune. Deities seem excluded from Grail Wars. Loophole: Not demigods or God Kings.

God King is what Gilgamesh is called in the Epic Saga. Possible variation? Dunno.
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Old 2010-04-09, 14:20   Link #1990
GDB
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Gilgamesh is the same as Hercules: one parent a human, one a god(dess).

As for Gods becoming Heroic Spirits, I figured all they'd have to do is die to fulfill the prerequisites. So some like Susanoo, who I'm not sure if they died or not, may not qualify... norse Gods would. Ragnarok for the loophole?
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Old 2010-04-09, 14:33   Link #1991
Arbitres
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...I know who Gilgamesh was. I know the legend about him being a Demigod. Thing is, the Epic Saga I've read (ont he assumption there are different variations, like the arthurian mythos) labelled him 'God King Gilgamesh'.

It's being politically correct, GDB.


Ragnarok? That would be a loophole, wouldn't it? The hero does indeed need to die, but a particularly (in?)famous hero would be given the choice of becoming an Epic Spirit. The only one I can see trying to seize glory would be Loki. Surtr, Odin, Baldur, Thor, and so on would have qualities of a heroic spirit.

I wouldn't know about Susano'o dying, all they said was he was banished to the netherworld. for provoking Amaterasu. Nothing states him dying. So it's ambiguos i'm afraid.

The best heroic spirit? Abraham Lincoln 8)
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Old 2010-04-09, 14:39   Link #1992
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by Arbitres View Post
God's were probably restricted from being Heroic Spirits... Or they are but aren't allowed to be Servants in Grail Wars because of their strength.
Yeah, Gods don't become Heroic Spirits. It's not that they're restricted from becoming them, but they're a different type of entity all together (called a 'Divine spirit'). Heracles counts because he was a human for at least part of his life.

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Hercules and Gilgamesh have divine blood in them. I do believe they are incredibly hard to kill as a result.
Well, Heracles and Gil weren't strong because of their divine blood, per se. Heracles is probably the most over-powered hero in all of mythology, and is good at everything, which is why he has such high stats. And Gil isn't actually that strong in terms of stats (most of the other servants are actually better than him). What makes Gil so great is that, because he's mankind's oldest hero, he possesses the best weapons (since, in the Nasuverse, Noble Phantasms acquire "mystery" and thus power as they get older), and he possesses the original version of pretty much everything.

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If any became a epic spirit it would be Nobunaga or the general Yoshitsune. Deities seem excluded from Grail Wars. Loophole: Not demigods or God Kings.
Divine spirits are excluded. The distinction is whether or not they're mortal (note that "mortal" doesn't necessarily mean "can be killed", so the Norse gods wouldn't count either, plus they can't die prior to the end of the world...). Gilgamesh and Heracles were, for a while at least, but Susano'o wasn't.
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Old 2010-04-09, 14:54   Link #1993
GDB
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Divine spirits are excluded. The distinction is whether or not they're mortal (note that "mortal" doesn't necessarily mean "can be killed", so the Norse gods wouldn't count either, plus they can't die prior to the end of the world...). Gilgamesh and Heracles were, for a while at least, but Susano'o wasn't.
Define "mortal", though. Most definitions of mortal just being that you can be killed (though some mean "being a human being").

Also, Loki might be summonable, since depending on your source he could be a half-god/half-giant or just a giant. And Thor might count as well, since he's also only a demi-god.
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Old 2010-04-09, 15:46   Link #1994
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Define "mortal", though. Most definitions of mortal just being that you can be killed (though some mean "being a human being").
Well, in the case of the Nasuverse, at least, there's a distinction between "Divine Spirits", which are gods, and ordinary humans. Only humans or humanoid creatures (like Medusa in her human form) can become Heroic Spirits. But, as for a more general definition of "mortal", the best way is probably to say that they won't die of natural causes and can't be killed at all except in special circumstances, and usually by other immortal beings.

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Also, Loki might be summonable, since depending on your source he could be a half-god/half-giant or just a giant. And Thor might count as well, since he's also only a demi-god.
Well, I don't think so, although it's not impossible.
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Old 2010-04-09, 15:49   Link #1995
orangejuicetang
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Heroic Spirits

英霊 - Eirei

A phenomenon and type of elemental. Basically, the elemental force of humanity.

A word that had had also been used to designate those heroes who died on the battlefield. In other words, dead soldiers. But in this case, better thought simply as dead heroes.

Those who accomplished great deeds during life and became objects of reverence and lore after death. The greatest entities that exist as a force "that protects humanity" and are categorically closer to elementals than wraiths. While elementals are a power that uses "images" created by humans to serve as a container to materialize, what's inside that container for Heroic Spirits is also strung together by the hopes and wishes of mankind. Among the Heroic Spirits, there are those of legends, those that actually existed, and those that remain unknown.
Small fragment. But yeah, most gods are pretty much excluded since they shouldn't be able to become Heroic Spirits in the first place. But in short, from what I can tell, you need to be at least somewhat human in order to be a heroic spirit, whether that means your part human or started out human or whatever. The process would basically go like 'person is born -> person becomes a hero -> hero dies -> hero is taken to throne of heroes'.

Besides, wouldn't gods technically fall under the domain of Gaia and thus be outside the range of candidates Alaya would pick for Heroic Spirits?

Besides, if IIRC, Loki and Thor wouldn't be dead yet. So either way they couldn't be summoned. You might summon one of their champions though or something like that.

That isn't to say, you can't summon them as Servants. You probably could, if you broke a few rules. After all, the Einzberns tried to summon the devil which would theoretically be in the same class as gods. Unfortunately, they happened to get Avenger.
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Old 2010-04-09, 16:02   Link #1996
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
But in short, from what I can tell, you need to be at least somewhat human in order to be a heroic spirit, whether that means your part human or started out human or whatever.
Yeah. It's notable that any part humans or people who later stopped being human who were summoned (like Medusa or Heracles) were summoned in their human form, not in their god/monster forms.

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Besides, wouldn't gods technically fall under the domain of Gaia and thus be outside the range of candidates Alaya would pick for Heroic Spirits?
Probably not outside the domain of Gaia, no, since they're part of the world. But, since they don't count as human, they're probably outside the domain of Alaya (hence why only humans can be summoned).

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Besides, if IIRC, Loki and Thor wouldn't be dead yet.
Yeah, this too. If they're dead, then there is no world any more (according to Norse mythology), so they must still be alive. And a Heroic Spirit that is still alive cannot usually be summoned (a Counter Guardian can be, however, as Archer proves).

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That isn't to say, you can't summon them as Servants. You probably could, if you broke a few rules. After all, the Einzberns tried to summon the devil which would theoretically be in the same class as gods. Unfortunately, they happened to get Avenger.
Err, the Einsberns got Avenger precisely because you can't summon gods. So, when they called for the devil, they got the next best thing, which was a human who became the representation of the devil.

Presumably, the Einsberns simply didn't know exactly how the system worked, and so thought that gods were summonable. Or else they were just desperate and stupid....
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Old 2010-04-09, 16:38   Link #1997
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Probably not outside the domain of Gaia, no, since they're part of the world. But, since they don't count as human, they're probably outside the domain of Alaya (hence why only humans can be summoned).
That's what I'm saying though. That gods are under Gaia but not Alaya.

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Err, the Einsberns got Avenger precisely because you can't summon gods. So, when they called for the devil, they got the next best thing, which was a human who became the representation of the devil.
I thought they actually got exactly what they aimed for, but what they aimed for wasn't what they were expecting? Since Avenger literally is 'all the evils of the world' ala Angra Manyu. Or something like that. A bit like Assassin's situation, where they got the next best thing, or something. Idk, I'll try to look it up later.

But actually, rereading Fate/Zero, there was an interesting line that made me not so sure anymore. It's when Rider interrupts the Saber and Lancer duel, and his appearance causes both Saber and Lancer to think that he's Zeus initially.

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To be enveloped by such an enormous aura of lightning and thunder, the Heroic Spirit is most likely some sort of thunder god. And if it was a thunder god with a connection to bulls, the first one to come into someone's mind would be the highest god of Mount Olympus. Although this chariot can not be called a Heroic Spirit itself, even as a Heroic Spirit's attachment it was very threatening.
Well, he turned out not to be Zeus, but Saber and Lancer thought the possibility was there.
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Old 2010-04-09, 16:45   Link #1998
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by orangejuicetang View Post
That's what I'm saying though. That gods are under Gaia but not Alaya.
Yeah, sorry, I misread your statement. What you said was a bit misleading, though, because Alaya is part of Gaia, and thus anything under the domain of Alaya is also under the domain of Gaia.

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I thought they actually got exactly what they aimed for, but what they aimed for wasn't what they were expecting?
Well, they asked for a devil, and got a (sort-of) devil. But, they wanted a divine spirit, and they can't get one of those, so they got Avenger instead.

Quote:
But actually, rereading Fate/Zero, there was an interesting line that made me not so sure anymore. It's when Rider interrupts the Saber and Lancer duel, and his appearance causes both Saber and Lancer to think that he's Zeus initially.
I presume that's a case of the servants not understanding the summoning system well enough to be sure that a god can't be summoned.
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Old 2010-04-09, 17:01   Link #1999
GDB
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
I presume that's a case of the servants not understanding the summoning system well enough to be sure that a god can't be summoned.
But if the Servants don't know if it's possible, and the Masters don't know if it's possible... how can we be sure it's not possible? There's only been 5 wars. That's between 35 and 36 Servants summoned. Among the hundreds or thousands of potential Heroic Spirit candidates, it's quite possible that a God/Deity could be summoned, and just hasn't. Perhaps they merely have a more costly requirement for "targeted" summoning, or can only be target summoned and not random summon, or something of that nature.
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Old 2010-04-09, 17:13   Link #2000
orangejuicetang
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A god/deity can't be summoned normally. However, when the Einzbern's tried for Angra Manyu in the third war, I'm pretty sure it was said that 'they broke the fundamental rule of the Holy Grail War and summoned something they shouldn't have.' You'd need to break the rules for summoning for the Holy Grail war.

Regardless, it does seem that summoning a full blown god/deity is against the rules or something.
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