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Old 2010-04-09, 18:12   Link #2001
GDB
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Are we sure the rule they broke was a "status" rule, and not the 7 Servant rule? That may be why he was of the Avenger class, rather than one of the real ones.
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Old 2010-04-09, 18:46   Link #2002
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Are we sure the rule they broke was a "status" rule, and not the 7 Servant rule? That may be why he was of the Avenger class, rather than one of the real ones.
No, there were only seven servants. Berserker was left out. The Fuyuki wiki says so.
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Old 2010-04-09, 19:27   Link #2003
orangejuicetang
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There is no 'status' rule. It's perfectly possible for there to be other classes. It's just that 'Saber, Lancer, Archer, Caster, Assassin, Rider, and Berserker' are the basic classes or more common classes.
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Old 2010-04-09, 19:52   Link #2004
GDB
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By status, I meant God/Deity. Hence why I separated it from the 7 Servant Rule. However, since when were there classes other than those 7? Avenger was an exception, and it wasn't introduced until HF which, by all accounts, brings in a lot of crazy shit that doesn't make as much sense as it could, when taken into context with Fate and UBW.
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Old 2010-04-09, 20:20   Link #2005
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
By status, I meant God/Deity.
Spoiler:


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Hence why I separated it from the 7 Servant Rule. However, since when were there classes other than those 7?
Well, the game claims that, other than the knight classes, there isn't any requirement that the seven classes be the same, but with the exception of Avenger (which is explicitly stated to have happened because the Einsberns broke the rules) there's no evidence of any other classes existing. But, then again, we only have two wars where we have the foggiest clue about the identity of the servants, so we can't really be sure....

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Avenger was an exception, and it wasn't introduced until HF which, by all accounts, brings in a lot of crazy shit that doesn't make as much sense as it could, when taken into context with Fate and UBW.
Lol, what?

Firstly, Avenger doesn't appear in HF, he appears in HA.
Spoiler:
Secondly, HF makes perfect sense even when Fate and UBW are taken into context. In fact, with hindsight it's obvious that Fate and UBW wouldn't actually work if Sakura's backstory were different, because there are several things that only happen (to do with Rider, and also to do with Rin saving Shirou) that only make sense because Sakura's life was how it is. And, Fate and UBW actually has quite a bit of foreshadowing of HF.

I'm guessing that you've not actually played the game, because HF makes perfect sense when taken in context with the other two routes. All of the things that happen in HF explain why Shinji acts like he does in the other two routes, why Sakura is like she is and why Rider acts like she does. I can't think of anything in there that is inconsistent with the other two routes (although it is slightly inconsistent with the anime, because the anime didn't bother to follow canon when it did the Caster/Sakura arc, so the whole "Caster summoning the Holy Grail" thing doesn't fit with the explanation Ilya gives in HF for how the Grail really works).

Last edited by Cherry_Lover; 2010-04-09 at 20:54.
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Old 2010-04-09, 20:45   Link #2006
orangejuicetang
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However, since when were there classes other than those 7?
It's implied by context that there are more than 7 classes. Here, I'll see if I can find the quote

argh, I don't feel like looking through all this text right now, but there was definitely something about it being 'a pretty basic distribution' this year.
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Old 2010-04-09, 20:54   Link #2007
GDB
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Lol, what?

Firstly, Avenger doesn't appear in HF, he appears in HA.
He doesn't appear, but they do mention him specifically by both name and class. That's why I said introduced, not appeared.

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Secondly, HF makes perfect sense even when Fate and UBW are taken into context. In fact, with hindsight it's obvious that Fate and UBW wouldn't actually work if Sakura's backstory were different, because there are several things that only happen (to do with Rider, and also to do with Rin saving Shirou) that only make sense because Sakura's life was how it is. And, Fate and UBW actually has quite a bit of foreshadowing of HF.
So, what happens with Rider that only works with Sakura's backstory? Absolutely nothing, since it could easily be said that Zoken assists Shinji in summoning her, and provides him a medium through which to use Command Seals.

And who mentioned anything about the Rin saving Shirou scene? That doesn't even have to explicitly have to do with the past event you learn about in HF. Without that, you can just as easily assume Rin saved him because she knew Sakura would be devastated if he died, and she didn't want to be responsible for it. Sure, we learn another reason later, but there's no plot hole if that scene isn't given. All you have to know in regards to that you can learn from the anime, which could've easily been included in another, less convoluted route.

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I'm guessing that you've not actually played the game, because HF makes perfect sense when taken in context with the other two routes. All of the things that happen in HF explain why Shinji acts like he does in the other two routes, why Sakura is like she is and why Rider acts like she does. I can't think of anything in there that is inconsistent with the other two routes (although it is slightly inconsistent with the anime, because the anime didn't bother to follow canon when it did the Caster/Sakura arc, so the whole "Caster summoning the Holy Grail" thing doesn't fit with the explanation Ilya gives in HF for how the Grail really works).
Don't talk down to me. I've played the game, and HF has so many random plot elements that don't really make sense.

Shinji doesn't really get any extra characterization in HF beyond why he's such a dick to Sakura. Even then, he's still a dick regardless of the reason, and he's a dick to everyone, so it doesn't change anything. Sakura got characterization, but it's just an explanation for why she's so timid. Again, it wasn't needed, as her characterization is a perfectly common character archetype.

As for Rider? Rider doesn't do anything in Fate and UBW that needs explaining. She has little to no personality, and she's stuck with a horrible master. That's it.

As for inconsistencies, how about we start with Shirou? In the other two routes, he's dead-set determined on his ideals, and is even willing to risk his life and future with Saber/Rin to accomplish it. In HF, however, he tosses away his ideals at the first possible opportunity. This is even before he starts getting his brain jacked up.

Now, how about Ilya? She somehow figures out Shirou's connection to Archer, despite not doing so in either of the other two routes. Not only does she figure it out, but she's so certain about her assumption that she's willing to stake Shirou's life on it. Also, I don't even see the point to the dress, since I don't think it was even mentioned in the other two routes, and at the very least was hardly necessary.
Spoiler for HF Ending:


Let's not forget Kotomine, who was able to go toe-to-toe with True Assassin, yet gets punked by a Shirou in Fate who wasn't even actively tracing anything. Oh, and speaking of True Assassin, that whole premise is ridiculous. It doesn't really break anything from Fate/UBW, but the premise behind it is ridiculous.

Now, I know you're a Sakura fan, but you need to be able to see how much crazy crap they brought into her route that doesn't quite make sense when compared with Fate/UBW.
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Old 2010-04-09, 21:56   Link #2008
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
He doesn't appear, but they do mention him specifically by both name and class. That's why I said introduced, not appeared.
Yeah, OK. I just thought you were mistaking HF for HA, since you claimed that HF has a load of plot holes that simply aren't there, but you obviously did mean HF. Seriously, there is absolutely no reason that being in HF makes something 'less canon', or less sensible. If it's in HF, then it's canon, just as much as Fate or UBW.

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So, what happens with Rider that only works with Sakura's backstory? Absolutely nothing, since it could easily be said that Zoken assists Shinji in summoning her, and provides him a medium through which to use Command Seals.
OK, when I said this, I didn't mean "Fate and UBW absolutely couldn't be made to work without HF", I meant "the way that they're written relies on Sakura being as she is, and having gone through the situations that are outlined in HF". Without Sakura's backstory, she wouldn't have summoned Rider, or she wouldn't have given her to Shinji. Without Sakura, Rin would never have seen Shirou, and she wouldn't have been worried about Sakura being upset by his death.

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Don't talk down to me. I've played the game, and HF has so many random plot elements that don't really make sense.
Evidentally you haven't read HF properly, then, because you failed totally to understand it....

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Shinji doesn't really get any extra characterization in HF beyond why he's such a dick to Sakura. Even then, he's still a dick regardless of the reason, and he's a dick to everyone, so it doesn't change anything.
His reason for being a dick was explained. True, he could just be a general dick, but without HF that's all he is. Once you play thorough HF, you actually understand his motivations and actions.

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Sakura got characterization, but it's just an explanation for why she's so timid. Again, it wasn't needed, as her characterization is a perfectly common character archetype.
It was needed. A normal person wouldn't reasonably be that timid. Anyway, the point is that, in HF, she goes from being a generic "kind timid girl" to an actual character (and a damn good one, at that).

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As for Rider? Rider doesn't do anything in Fate and UBW that needs explaining. She has little to no personality, and she's stuck with a horrible master. That's it.
Again, she actually gets characterisation in HF.

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As for inconsistencies, how about we start with Shirou? In the other two routes, he's dead-set determined on his ideals, and is even willing to risk his life and future with Saber/Rin to accomplish it. In HF, however, he tosses away his ideals at the first possible opportunity. This is even before he starts getting his brain jacked up.
Sorry, but this is total bollocks. He does not "toss away his ideals at the first opportunity". So many people get Shirou's ideal mixed up with Kiritsugu's. What Shirou wants is to save everyone. More specifically, as Rin says in UBW (when talking about Archer) he hates to see the people in front of him get hurt. At that point in the story (at the Mind of Steel decision) Shirou had no idea that Sakura was the shadow, and he had no idea that she would end up killing people (unintentionally). All he had as 'evidence' for killing her was the vague assertion that she would go crazy and kill people at some point. Shirou doesn't kill people based on what they may, perhaps, do in the future, and he doesn't allow one innocent person who is in front of him to die if it might save others in the future. If he did, then he would have killed Shinji in the school in Fate and in UBW, and he would have left the woman who Rider sucked the soul from to die in order to deal with Zouken and Shinji at the start of HF. Shirou doesn't kill people unless he has to, to protect others. His actions in HF are perfectly consistent with his true wish, even if it means discarding the false 'ideal' that he borrowed from his father.[/rant]

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Now, how about Ilya? She somehow figures out Shirou's connection to Archer, despite not doing so in either of the other two routes. Not only does she figure it out, but she's so certain about her assumption that she's willing to stake Shirou's life on it.
She's the Grail. Archer's soul is inside her, so she can check up on it. In Fate, she may not have cared enough to do so, and she also has several other souls in her. In UBW, she never gets the chance because he doesn't die until after her. But, in HF he's the only soul she has, and because Archer had acted to protect her, she decides to look inside herself and work out who he is (she's actually really protective of his soul, and happy for him to be inside her). Besides, there's nothing in Fate that says that she doesn't know Archer's identity. It just never comes up, and there's no reason for her to screw things up by saying "Oh, BTW Rin, your servant was a future Shirou". For that matter, she never actually tells them in HF either, at least not directly. If it wasn't for Rin and Shirou working it out and asking her, we wouldn't have known that she knew in HF.

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Also, I don't even see the point to the dress, since I don't think it was even mentioned in the other two routes, and at the very least was hardly necessary.
Actually it is, in one of the Fate bad endings I believe (the one where Ilya moves Shirou's soul into a doll, when she kidnaps him) . She needs it to materialise the souls. In any case, it was most likely a diversion to stop Sakura taking her straight to the Grail and opening the gate, so even if she doesn't strictly need it, that doesn't stop her claiming that she does.

Spoiler for HF Ending:



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Let's not forget Kotomine, who was able to go toe-to-toe with True Assassin, yet gets punked by a Shirou in Fate who wasn't even actively tracing anything.
Well, Shirou is pretty good. But, yeah, I'll admit that that is a bit odd. But no more so than how Shirou manages to take down Gil in UBW, or (even more) how Archer manages to survive so long and do so much without a master.

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Oh, and speaking of True Assassin, that whole premise is ridiculous.
What premise?

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Now, I know you're a Sakura fan, but you need to be able to see how much crazy crap they brought into her route that doesn't quite make sense when compared with Fate/UBW.
No, I can see one thing that maybe doesn't make all that much sense (that being Kotomine), and I'm not even particularly convinced about that, because Shirou is pretty awesome, and he only takes down Kotomine by surprise. The rest is rubbish. The whole "OMG, Shirou not taking the MoS route is OOC" thing is something I've comprehensively debunked many times before. It's not out of character for him, it's perfectly natural. He often puts the girl first (Saber in Fate, repeatedly), and he often acts to save the person in front of him even if thay could be detrimental to the whole world later on (Ilya in UBW, for example, where he jumps out to try to save her even though he had no hope of actually doing so). There is nothing in Shirou's characterisation in the other two routes that would suggest he would kill Sakura in such a situation. He's perfectly willing to sacrifice himself, but not other people.

Last edited by Cherry_Lover; 2010-04-09 at 22:16.
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Old 2010-04-09, 22:24   Link #2009
orangejuicetang
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God dammit, why is it that you always end up getting into a HF/Sakura fight? These never end well.
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Old 2010-04-09, 22:48   Link #2010
GDB
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Evidentally you haven't read HF properly, then, because you failed totally to understand it....
Perhaps you didn't read it properly, since you seem to make it out to be this epic story that may just be the greatest ever told due to your Sakura fanboyism. I, personally, found it to be boring as hell compared to Fate and UBW.

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Sorry, but this is total bollocks. He does not "toss away his ideals at the first opportunity". So many people get Shirou's ideal mixed up with Kiritsugu's. What Shirou wants is to save everyone.
Kiritsugu's ideals are Shirou's ideals. Shirou adopted them and took them for his own.

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His actions in HF are perfectly consistent with his true wish, even if it means discarding the false 'ideal' that he borrowed from his father.[/rant]
He even said himself that he was tossing his ideals away in order to protect Sakura.

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She's the Grail. Archer's soul is inside her, so she can check up on it. In Fate, she may not have cared enough to do so, and she also has several other souls in her. In UBW, she never gets the chance because he doesn't die until after her. But, in HF he's the only soul she has, and because Archer had acted to protect her, she decides to look inside herself and work out who he is (she's actually really protective of his soul, and happy for him to be inside her). Besides, there's nothing in Fate that says that she doesn't know Archer's identity. It just never comes up, and there's no reason for her to screw things up by saying "Oh, BTW Rin, your servant was a future Shirou". For that matter, she never actually tells them in HF either, at least not directly. If it wasn't for Rin and Shirou working it out and asking her, we wouldn't have known that she knew in HF.
Since when has she been able to communicate with any soul she caught? This sounds like baseless assumption to explain something. Besides, we knew almost immediately that she knew who Archer was when she had Kotomine transplant his arm. He said that normally transplanting from a Servant to a Master doesn't work, and Ilya said that it would "definitely work, but only for them [Archer and Shirou]."

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Well, Shirou is pretty good. But, yeah, I'll admit that that is a bit odd. But no more so than how Shirou manages to take down Gil in UBW, or (even more) how Archer manages to survive so long and do so much without a master.
To be fair, Shirou was only kicking his ass. He didn't technically take him down. At least Archer surviving can be attributed to his class ability.

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What premise?
The idea of there being a "True" version of the class, which just happens to ALWAYS be the same being (part of a hive mind), with the same purpose.
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Old 2010-04-09, 23:08   Link #2011
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Perhaps you didn't read it properly, since you seem to make it out to be this epic story that may just be the greatest ever told due to your Sakura fanboyism. I, personally, found it to be boring as hell compared to Fate and UBW.
Well, I very much doubt Nasu wrote HF to be boring and full of plot-holes, so if I don't find it to be and you do then it's more likely that I've read it properly than that you have.

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Kiritsugu's ideals are Shirou's ideals. Shirou adopted them and took them for his own.
OK, I should have been more specific. Even though Shirou claims to follow Kiritsugu's ideals, that's not what he really wants. If he did, then Archer would be happy with his lot in life, since he gets to save the many by killing the few all the time. What Shirou wants is to make people happy, and to save people, not to kill people. UBW Shirou realises this at the end of the route, but he accepts that he may have to kill people sometimes (I do wonder, though, how UBW Shirou would react if it were Rin who he had to kill...) but Archer only realised it after his death. HF Shirou, on the other hand, realised it when he was forced to make the choice between killing Sakura now, even though she hadn't done anything and wasn't certain to do so and potentially letting other innocent people die later if things went wrong.

Shirou doesn't start out like Kiritsugu. He does borrow his ideal, yes, but he borrows the idealistic version of it, which is to save everyone, and he follows that whole-heartedly, because it fits well with who he is as a person. But, of course, the war makes him realise that he has to compromise, and his emphasis has to vary a bit. In Fate, it mostly stays intact, in UBW he accepts that it is sometimes necessary to kill one to save many (although, notably, he never has to put it into practice) but in HF he realises that his true wish is not to see people cry, and to prevent the people in front of him getting hurt, and he follows that. It's the same realisation Archer came to, only he came to it too late.

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He even said himself that he was tossing his ideals away in order to protect Sakura.
Yeah, and Sakura said that she was dirty and cowardly because she got raped by Shinji for years. A total lack of self-esteem does tend to make you rather self-depreciating. Just because he says it, it doesn't make it true. And in any case, like I said, he doesn't stick to his ideals in the other two routes (especially Fate). He tries the best he can to save everyone, and mostly succeeds. He doesn't go against them in Fate or UBW simply because he never has to.

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Since when has she been able to communicate with any soul she caught? This sounds like baseless assumption to explain something.
Well, the souls are inside her, and we know full well that they can interact with her, because the souls inside Sakura are what form the shadow (coupled with her connection to Angra Mainyu). It's not a case of communicating with him, either, it's a case of her simply looking at what's inside her. I'm pretty sure this is a canon explanation, too, although I don't know if it comes from the game itself or from elsewhere.

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Besides, we knew almost immediately that she knew who Archer was when she had Kotomine transplant his arm. He said that normally transplanting from a Servant to a Master doesn't work, and Ilya said that it would "definitely work, but only for them [Archer and Shirou]."
Well, it's heavily hinted at there, yes. But, she never outright admits it, and certainly not to Shirou and Rin. She could easily have found out in Fate without telling anyone, because she doesn't need to.

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At least Archer surviving can be attributed to his class ability.
Yeah, but his ability to pull prana out of his ass in order to repeatedly sword-spam isn't.

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The idea of there being a "True" version of the class, which just happens to ALWAYS be the same being (part of a hive mind), with the same purpose.
That's how the Assassin class works. An Assassin can't normally be a Hero, because Assassins are, by their very definition, anonymous. The only exception to that is Hassan-al-Sabbah, because he founded a famous order of Assassins (in fact, the word Assassin comes from that group). If anything is absurd, it's the idea that False Assassin could fit in that class, because he's clearly not one.

And the name "True Assassin" is simply a way of distinguishing between the Hassan Assassin and the Fake Assassin summoned by Caster (who is a Fake Assassin since he quite clearly doesn't belong in the class, since he's not known for, you know, assassinating people).

Oh, and Assassin isn't the same person every time. There are actually (IIRC) 19 possible different Assassins, corresponding to the 19 different Hassan-al-Sabbah's who led the Hassassin. They all have the same name, because every leader of the Hassassin took the name "Hassan-al-Sabbah" by tradition, but they're not a 'hive mind', they're not all the same being (hence the different NPs) and nor do they all have the same purpose (Zouken got that Hassan specifically because he wanted to be immortal).

Last edited by Cherry_Lover; 2010-04-09 at 23:26.
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Old 2010-04-09, 23:52   Link #2012
GDB
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Well, I very much doubt Nasu wrote HF to be boring and full of plot-holes, so if I don't find it to be and you do then it's more likely that I've read it properly than that you have.
Well, there were originally going to be more routes. At least one for Ilya. It's quite possible that her's would've filled in holes, or that pieces from her route were taken and put in Sakura's, but wasn't thoroughly continuity checked before being implemented. There's all sorts of reasons why there can be inconsistencies.

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Shirou doesn't start out like Kiritsugu. He does borrow his ideal, yes, but he borrows the idealistic version of it, which is to save everyone, and he follows that whole-heartedly, because it fits well with who he is as a person. But, of course, the war makes him realise that he has to compromise, and his emphasis has to vary a bit. In Fate, it mostly stays intact, in UBW he accepts that it is sometimes necessary to kill one to save many (although, notably, he never has to put it into practice) but in HF he realises that his true wish is not to see people cry, and to prevent the people in front of him getting hurt, and he follows that. It's the same realisation Archer came to, only he came to it too late.
Well, either way he has to choose for someone to die. Ilya tells him that much right out, he just doesn't get why she says so.

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Just because he says it, it doesn't make it true. And in any case, like I said, he doesn't stick to his ideals in the other two routes (especially Fate). He tries the best he can to save everyone, and mostly succeeds. He doesn't go against them in Fate or UBW simply because he never has to.
This wording is confusing. At one point you say he goes against his ideals in Fate, but then later you say he doesn't.

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Well, the souls are inside her, and we know full well that they can interact with her, because the souls inside Sakura are what form the shadow (coupled with her connection to Angra Mainyu). It's not a case of communicating with him, either, it's a case of her simply looking at what's inside her. I'm pretty sure this is a canon explanation, too, although I don't know if it comes from the game itself or from elsewhere.
Didn't the Shadow appear long before any Servant had been killed? Or did True Assassin kill Caster by then? I forget. Besides, how does "looking inside her" tell her that Archer = Shirou? It's not like she had Shirou inside of her to make a comparison.

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That's how the Assassin class works. An Assassin can't normally be a Hero, because Assassins are, by their very definition, anonymous.
That's not how it worked prior to HF, which is exactly my point. And assassins don't need to be anonymous, just stealthy. I'd say pretty much any famous "ninja" would classify for the assassin class with ease.

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If anything is absurd, it's the idea that False Assassin could fit in that class, because he's clearly not one.
I don't see how that's any more absurd than Shirou or Gilgamesh being "Archers", when that certainly isn't their claim to fame.

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And the name "True Assassin" is simply a way of distinguishing between the Hassan Assassin and the Fake Assassin summoned by Caster (who is a Fake Assassin since he quite clearly doesn't belong in the class, since he's not known for, you know, assassinating people).
Again, Gilgamesh isn't known for shooting people with a bow, either. We don't really know enough about the classes to dictate the exact specifications needed to qualify for them, especially when someone like Hercules has his bow turned into an axe-sword.
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Old 2010-04-10, 10:30   Link #2013
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Well, there were originally going to be more routes. At least one for Ilya. It's quite possible that her's would've filled in holes, or that pieces from her route were taken and put in Sakura's, but wasn't thoroughly continuity checked before being implemented. There's all sorts of reasons why there can be inconsistencies.
Well, it's quite clear that Nasu did take bits of the Ilya route and put them into HF, but none of the things you've claimed are 'inconsistencies' would come from that. So far, you've pointed otu a load of inconsistences, I've explained why they're not inconsistencies and you've said "err, well, I don't like you're explanation, and I don't like HF, so I'm gonna stick to my "Nasu doesn't know what he's doing and HF is shit" line even though there's a perfectly good reason for all these things". It's clear from the fact that I'm giving explanations based on my knowledge of the route for the inconsistencies that you claim are there that I understand HF better than you do. Which isn't surprising, since I suspect you've played it once (and probably didn't pay much attention, because you didn't like it), whereas I have replayed it many times and argued over it many more with people who actually know what they're talking about.

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Well, either way he has to choose for someone to die. Ilya tells him that much right out, he just doesn't get why she says so.
No, he doesn't. It does turn out that way, but that's because of how the events go. And, plus, one of the three options was him, which is something he'd be perfectly fine with. In the True end, he doesn't choose to let Ilya die, she chooses for him.

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This wording is confusing. At one point you say he goes against his ideals in Fate, but then later you say he doesn't.
I didn't say that he went against his ideals in Fate, I just said that his actions in Fate weren't because of them (or, at least, weren't because of his father's ideal). Can you name one action that Shirou takes anywhere in FSN that adheres to the "kill one to save many" philosophy, where the "one" isn't a clear bad guy in the process of doing something bad?

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Didn't the Shadow appear long before any Servant had been killed? Or did True Assassin kill Caster by then? I forget.
This I'm not entirely clear about myself. The first definite appearance of the shadow is after at least one servant is dead, but it's unclear whether the shadow appears is there when Zouken takes out the first servant. It's possible that he manipulated Sakura into creating a shadow familiar or something, though. Thinking about it, the shadow may actually be the contents of the Great Holy Grail (which includes Angra Mainyu) leaking out through Sakura's body.

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Besides, how does "looking inside her" tell her that Archer = Shirou? It's not like she had Shirou inside of her to make a comparison.
This I'm not sure of. I guess his soul is marked as being "Emiya Shirou", or something (UBW shows that there are problems with having two Shirous in the same time, so clearly there is some marking that says "this person is Emiya Shirou"), and with her ability as a magus (which is to do with soul manipulation) she's able to read it.

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That's not how it worked prior to HF, which is exactly my point.
No, it is. True Assassin isn't the exception, Fake Assassin is. The game makes that quite clear, even in Fate and UBW. He's not a 'proper' servant because he was summoned by Caster, and thus the Grail made a 'fake' out of some souls it found lying around.

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And assassins don't need to be anonymous, just stealthy. I'd say pretty much any famous "ninja" would classify for the assassin class with ease.
Well, perhaps, but the way that the Grail War works in FSN only allows Hassan to be Assassin. It's obvious to me at least that the only reason Fake Assassin is described as an Assassin-class servant is so that Nasu could include True Assassin in HF. Otherwise, they'd have come up with a more suitable class name for him.

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I don't see how that's any more absurd than Shirou or Gilgamesh being "Archers", when that certainly isn't their claim to fame.
No, but they have the properties of an Archer, in that they're good at long-range attacks. Being an Archer-class servant doesn't mean you have to be an Archer, it just means that you have to rely mainly on long-range attacks.

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Again, Gilgamesh isn't known for shooting people with a bow, either. We don't really know enough about the classes to dictate the exact specifications needed to qualify for them, especially when someone like Hercules has his bow turned into an axe-sword.
Perhaps not, but Nasu has made it canon that Assassin is Hassan-al-Sabbah unless you cheat (like Caster did). So, that's Nasu's definition of the servant class. If you're complaining about how he's defined the Assassin class then you should also be complaining about how he's defined the Archer class, and thus you should have decided that UBW is 'full of plot holes' too.

Seriously, can you give one reason why Fake Assassin should fit in the Assassin class, other than "because it's the only class that was left when Caster summoned him"? He has none of the properties of an Assassin at all, and (unlike the Archers) there's no particular property that he has that would make him a 'pseudo'-Assassin. The only reason Fake Assassin is called 'Assassin' is because True Assassin wasn't summoned like he should have been, so Fake Assassin took his place.
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Old 2010-04-10, 11:03   Link #2014
GDB
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
I didn't say that he went against his ideals in Fate, I just said that his actions in Fate weren't because of them (or, at least, weren't because of his father's ideal). Can you name one action that Shirou takes anywhere in FSN that adheres to the "kill one to save many" philosophy, where the "one" isn't a clear bad guy in the process of doing something bad?
You said he didn't stick to his ideals in Fate, and then said in the next line that he never went against them. Those are your words, and you didn't say anything about his actions and whether they were because of his ideals or not.

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Thinking about it, the shadow may actually be the contents of the Great Holy Grail (which includes Angra Mainyu) leaking out through Sakura's body.
I think this is what it says is the case during one of her nighttime romps.

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This I'm not sure of. I guess his soul is marked as being "Emiya Shirou", or something (UBW shows that there are problems with having two Shirous in the same time, so clearly there is some marking that says "this person is Emiya Shirou"), and with her ability as a magus (which is to do with soul manipulation) she's able to read it.
When did UBW show that there were problems having two Shirous in the same time?

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No, it is. True Assassin isn't the exception, Fake Assassin is. The game makes that quite clear, even in Fate and UBW. He's not a 'proper' servant because he was summoned by Caster, and thus the Grail made a 'fake' out of some souls it found lying around.
All I recall Fate/UBW saying about Assassin up to that point is that he was a Fake Hero, as in he never existed. It never said anything about any other possible restrictions to the class.

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Well, perhaps, but the way that the Grail War works in FSN only allows Hassan to be Assassin. It's obvious to me at least that the only reason Fake Assassin is described as an Assassin-class servant is so that Nasu could include True Assassin in HF. Otherwise, they'd have come up with a more suitable class name for him.
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No, but they have the properties of an Archer, in that they're good at long-range attacks. Being an Archer-class servant doesn't mean you have to be an Archer, it just means that you have to rely mainly on long-range attacks.
So Archer-class servants don't have to be Archers, but Assassin-class servants have to be Assassins? If all you need to be an Archer is being good at long-range attacks, then why can't an Assassin just be someone who is exceptionally skilled in stealth and melee combat?

For that matter, what qualifies someone to be any class? Saber would, logically, be someone with a sword. But we saw with Hercules that weapons can easily change their form to another type of weapon. The only one with a really "clear" definition is Rider, but even that's kind of loose when you think of Medusa's lore.

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Perhaps not, but Nasu has made it canon that Assassin is Hassan-al-Sabbah unless you cheat (like Caster did). So, that's Nasu's definition of the servant class. If you're complaining about how he's defined the Assassin class then you should also be complaining about how he's defined the Archer class, and thus you should have decided that UBW is 'full of plot holes' too.
I would have a problem with the Archer class if there were a third Archer shown who was clearly a bowman. As it is, it's rather iffy, but at least it can be looked at as the "hodge podge" class.

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Seriously, can you give one reason why Fake Assassin should fit in the Assassin class, other than "because it's the only class that was left when Caster summoned him"? He has none of the properties of an Assassin at all, and (unlike the Archers) there's no particular property that he has that would make him a 'pseudo'-Assassin. The only reason Fake Assassin is called 'Assassin' is because True Assassin wasn't summoned like he should have been, so Fake Assassin took his place.
I did earlier. He's exceptionally skilled at stealth and melee combat. He has to rely on said skill because of his lack of extraordinary powers (Magic Armor, Super-Special-Awesome Energy Attack (like Excalibur), etc). His kill-move is designed to not allow for escape, which would be a perfect assassination technique to use on masters.
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Old 2010-04-10, 11:32   Link #2015
Cherry_Lover
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You said he didn't stick to his ideals in Fate, and then said in the next line that he never went against them. Those are your words, and you didn't say anything about his actions and whether they were because of his ideals or not.
Well, Ok, I was slightly confused in my wording there. Everyone can make mistakes sometimes.

I like the way that you've entirely ignored all the valid points I made that tear your argument to shreds, but you've picked up on the one small error in terminology I made. Ignore that particular bit of my argument then, because there are plenty more arguments I've given you for why Shirou was not remotely OOC in HF.

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I think this is what it says is the case during one of her nighttime romps.
I believe it's actually what Zouken tells Shirou when he's trying to persuade him to kill Sakura. Of course, that means that it's correctness is rather dubious, since Zouken is quite capable of lying through his hind teeth to get what he wants (and what he wanted in that case was for Shirou to try and fail to kill Sakura, thus precipitating her breakdown).

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When did UBW show that there were problems having two Shirous in the same time?
Not problems per se, but there is a sort of 'mixing' between their souls. Shirou pulls off information from Archer when they're in close proximity (hence why he learns how to fight so quickly in UBW) and they are stated to have a natural dislike for each other that stems from the contradiction of having two Shirous around at the same time. Those things (in particular the first one, which you can't deny) show that there must be some 'marking' that says "this soul is the soul of Emiya Shirou". When Gaia looks at them, it says "huh, there's two Emiya Shirou's here" and thus starts to get them mixed up, leading to Shirou pulling information off Archer.

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All I recall Fate/UBW saying about Assassin up to that point is that he was a Fake Hero, as in he never existed. It never said anything about any other possible restrictions to the class.
No, because if it did then it would have spoilered HF. HF explains it, as does Fate/Zero, plus the various side-material books. An Assassin-class servant is always Hassan-al-Sabbah. But, the point that I was making is that even in Fate/UBW, he's shown to be an exception to the usual rules, so I don't see how you find it so odd that he should be shown to be an even bigger exception in HF.

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So Archer-class servants don't have to be Archers, but Assassin-class servants have to be Assassins?
In simple terms, yes, because Nasu said so. But, the point I was making is that if you were thinking of a class name for Fake Assassin, without any consideration of the necessity of involving True Assassin in HF, you wouldn't come up with "Assassin".

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If all you need to be an Archer is being good at long-range attacks, then why can't an Assassin just be someone who is exceptionally skilled in stealth and melee combat?
Because that's how Nasu defined it.

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For that matter, what qualifies someone to be any class? Saber would, logically, be someone with a sword. But we saw with Hercules that weapons can easily change their form to another type of weapon. The only one with a really "clear" definition is Rider, but even that's kind of loose when you think of Medusa's lore.
Actually, Heracles' weapon did not change it's form. Nine lives is a technique, not a weapon, so he can use it with any weapon. It was originally invented for use with a bow, but it can equally as easily be used with any other weapon.

As for what qualifies someone to be in a class, it's "whatever Nasu says qualifies them", and Nasu has said that, to be an Assassin (unless someone breaks the rules), you have to be Hassan-al-Sabbah.

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I would have a problem with the Archer class if there were a third Archer shown who was clearly a bowman. As it is, it's rather iffy, but at least it can be looked at as the "hodge podge" class.
But there clearly could be an Archer-class servant who was a normal bowman. Heracles, for example, is stated to be able to be any class but Caster, and he doesn't have any beam-spam ability or similar, he just has a bow....

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I did earlier. He's exceptionally skilled at stealth and melee combat.
Melee combat, yes, but not stealth. His "presense concealment" is a class skill, that he gets because he got pushed into the "Assassin" container.

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His kill-move is designed to not allow for escape, which would be a perfect assassination technique to use on masters.
As opposed to every other NP, which any master could trivially dodge...? He would be far better classed as a Saber, or as some melee class. If you were inventing a class name solely for him, you wouldn't describe him as 'Assassin'. The reason he's in that class is because Nasu wanted to use True Assassin in HF, and thus needed the Assassin class there, but there was no-one other than Zouken who could summon TA (and he didn't want Zouken involved before HF).
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Old 2010-04-10, 12:02   Link #2016
GDB
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
I like the way that you've entirely ignored all the valid points I made that tear your argument to shreds, but you've picked up on the one small error in terminology I made. Ignore that particular bit of my argument then, because there are plenty more arguments I've given you for why Shirou was not remotely OOC in HF.
Because your reasons come down to personal interpretation of Shirou's ideals. In HF, he's willing to throw them away to protect Sakura, despite her saying what will end up happening. He's still protecting what's in front of him, but he's abandoning his greater goal of saving everyone. This goes against what he did in Fate, where he wouldn't even have Saber partially hurt people (and we know that it's possible to siphon off only part of someone energy, since there were all of those coma incidents) despite the horrible position it put them in.

Also, I forget, when did they learn what was wrong with Sakura? Before or after she went off the deep end? If it was before, it seems like it'd be a lot simpler to just Rule Breaker her right off the bat and save a lot of trouble.

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No, because if it did then it would have spoilered HF. HF explains it, as does Fate/Zero, plus the various side-material books. An Assassin-class servant is always Hassan-al-Sabbah.
That's called retconning. As in, retroactive continuity. It's what happens when something wasn't originally intended, but it fits so they later go in and say that's how it always was.

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In simple terms, yes, because Nasu said so. But, the point I was making is that if you were thinking of a class name for Fake Assassin, without any consideration of the necessity of involving True Assassin in HF, you wouldn't come up with "Assassin".
There's already a Saber class, so you can't exactly call it the "Katana" class or "Blade" class. All that's left is something to symbolize pure, raw skill.

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Because that's how Nasu defined it.
Sorry, I prefer logical explanations, not just "that's how it is."

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Actually, Heracles' weapon did not change it's form. Nine lives is a technique, not a weapon, so he can use it with any weapon. It was originally invented for use with a bow, but it can equally as easily be used with any other weapon.
Read the last page of his details in the game. It says, and I quote:
"He has the attributes to become any of the seven classes except Caster, and the greatest Noble Phantasm in his possession is a bow and arrow he obtained in the twelve labors called 'Shooting hundred beasts (Nine Lives)'." Then again, the only reason it may change form is because of HF and Shirou's use of it. So, one contradicts the other.

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As for what qualifies someone to be in a class, it's "whatever Nasu says qualifies them", and Nasu has said that, to be an Assassin (unless someone breaks the rules), you have to be Hassan-al-Sabbah.
Again, I prefer logical explanations to "that's how it is."

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But there clearly could be an Archer-class servant who was a normal bowman. Heracles, for example, is stated to be able to be any class but Caster, and he doesn't have any beam-spam ability or similar, he just has a bow....
Yes, but as far as we know only these "special cases" have been summoned as Archers. If it can be said that there's more than the seven classes and we just don't know about them, then you can't really be against this argument either.

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Melee combat, yes, but not stealth. His "presense concealment" is a class skill, that he gets because he got pushed into the "Assassin" container.
And how does that differ from "True Assassin"? He gets his presence concealment from his class skill as well.

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As opposed to every other NP, which any master could trivially dodge...? He would be far better classed as a Saber, or as some melee class. If you were inventing a class name solely for him, you wouldn't describe him as 'Assassin'. The reason he's in that class is because Nasu wanted to use True Assassin in HF, and thus needed the Assassin class there, but there was no-one other than Zouken who could summon TA (and he didn't want Zouken involved before HF).
Any other NP is designed to push large amounts of energy out to ensure a kill, with the range of the weapon determined by its type. Assassin's is a pure skill kill-shot. There's a difference.

Besides, the idea that no one but Zouken could summon him is just a plot device to excuse why he wasn't around before. Also, an Assassin is a melee class if you look at any sort of RPG. They generally rely more on agility, dexterity, and skill than strength and constitution. Sometimes they're referred to as Rogues rather than Assassins, but given the "dignified" titles of the other classes, Assassin is better than Rogue.
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Old 2010-04-10, 12:42   Link #2017
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How ya guys doin'? Done bitching or are you still going strong?

Dude. It's perspective. What the hell? Okay Shirou was OOC to someone in HF, he was IC to someone else in HF. I don't udnerstand, the problem is pretty simple: Both of you are going "THIS IS TRUTHZ!" and the other is going "UR WRONGZ!1"

Can this go back into a Q&A thread now? The original question probably being half a page down now, if not an entire page. Go collect yourselves and pick up that common sense you two dropped. The question wasn't all that difficult. GBD. Cherry, you turned this into an argument. Do learn to fix that~
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Old 2010-04-10, 12:53   Link #2018
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Because your reasons come down to personal interpretation of Shirou's ideals.
And yours are also personal interpretation.

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In HF, he's willing to throw them away to protect Sakura, despite her saying what will end up happening.
But he doesn't know it will happen. All he has is a (very upset) Sakura saying that she's a danger to him and everyone, that she's impure and so on. At that point she has done nothing wrong.

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He's still protecting what's in front of him, but he's abandoning his greater goal of saving everyone.
Is Sakura not a person now, then? If he kills her, that's hardly saving everyone, is it....

At that point in time, she hadn't killed anyone, and was not certain to do so. So, killing her would go against his goal of saving everyone anyway.

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This goes against what he did in Fate, where he wouldn't even have Saber partially hurt people (and we know that it's possible to siphon off only part of someone energy, since there were all of those coma incidents) despite the horrible position it put them in.
What? How is refusing to kill one innocent person to potentially save many in HF not consistent with refusing to allow Saber to hurt innocent people in Fate to potentially save many? If anything, that proves my point. Kiritsugu would have had no problem with letting Saber steal prana from innocent people if it was necessary to win the war.

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Also, I forget, when did they learn what was wrong with Sakura? Before or after she went off the deep end? If it was before, it seems like it'd be a lot simpler to just Rule Breaker her right off the bat and save a lot of trouble.
Rule Breaker doesn't work until she's actually contracted with Angra Mainyu, and that means that she has to have accepted the connection.

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That's called retconning. As in, retroactive continuity. It's what happens when something wasn't originally intended, but it fits so they later go in and say that's how it always was.
Yes, but you can't retcon something within the same story. It's possible that he came up with the idea of Caster summoning another servant before he came up with the idea of HF, but that doesn't mean he came up with the class name. The three were released at the same time, and there's huge amounts of foreshadowing for HF in the first two routes, so it's clear that Nasu wrote the final versions of Fate and UBW with HF in mind, and thus that the "Assassin is supposed to be Hassan" rule was not a retcon.

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There's already a Saber class, so you can't exactly call it the "Katana" class or "Blade" class. All that's left is something to symbolize pure, raw skill.
And I don't see how that fits 'Assassin'.

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Sorry, I prefer logical explanations, not just "that's how it is."
Then why are you so accepting of the Archer class definition? There's clearly no logic there.

The explanation for the Assassin class is simple. The Grail War was set up in such a way that the servant summoned into the "Assassin" container will always be Hassan, unless someone breaks the rules. Fake Assassin is an exception because Caster summoned him, and she shouldn't be able to summon a servant. That's a perfectly logical explanation of why Assassin = Hassan.

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Yes, but as far as we know only these "special cases" have been summoned as Archers. If it can be said that there's more than the seven classes and we just don't know about them, then you can't really be against this argument either.
And, the explanation for Fake Assassin being summoned (as an exception) has already been given several times.

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And how does that differ from "True Assassin"? He gets his presence concealment from his class skill as well.
Because True Assassin was known for being stealty in life. Fake Assassin was not.

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Any other NP is designed to push large amounts of energy out to ensure a kill, with the range of the weapon determined by its type. Assassin's is a pure skill kill-shot. There's a difference.
Not really. Fake Assassins NP is just as much of a one-hit-kill against servants as against masters (although, to be fair, the same applies to True Assassin).

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Besides, the idea that no one but Zouken could summon him is just a plot device to excuse why he wasn't around before.
It's not that no-one else can summon him, it's that no-one else wanted to summon him. Which, in fact, is a plot device to explain why Caster was able to summon another servant. But, if someone other than Zouken summoned TA, then Zouken wouldn't be able to do it in HF.

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Also, an Assassin is a melee class if you look at any sort of RPG. They generally rely more on agility, dexterity, and skill than strength and constitution. Sometimes they're referred to as Rogues rather than Assassins, but given the "dignified" titles of the other classes, Assassin is better than Rogue.
There's no good reason for Fake Assassin to be an Assassin class.

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Originally Posted by Arbitres View Post
How ya guys doin'? Done bitching or are you still going strong?

Dude. It's perspective. What the hell? Okay Shirou was OOC to someone in HF, he was IC to someone else in HF. I don't udnerstand, the problem is pretty simple: Both of you are going "THIS IS TRUTHZ!" and the other is going "UR WRONGZ!1"
Sorry, but I've heard this "Shirou is OOC in HF" crap far too many times to just ignore it. It's wrong, and it makes people think "HF is shit", when it isn't. Shirou is not OOC in HF, and I've conclusively shown that he's not in my arguments.
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Old 2010-04-10, 13:07   Link #2019
Altima of the Gates
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Originally Posted by Arbitres View Post
How ya guys doin'? Done bitching or are you still going strong?

Dude. It's perspective. What the hell? Okay Shirou was OOC to someone in HF, he was IC to someone else in HF. I don't udnerstand, the problem is pretty simple: Both of you are going "THIS IS TRUTHZ!" and the other is going "UR WRONGZ!1"

Can this go back into a Q&A thread now? The original question probably being half a page down now, if not an entire page. Go collect yourselves and pick up that common sense you two dropped. The question wasn't all that difficult. GBD. Cherry, you turned this into an argument. Do learn to fix that~
True enough it may have gone off on a tangent, but you're being exceedingly unprofessional here by talking down to them like they are children who needed to be browbeaten.

Besides, I've looked into other questions and they get into pages of conversation as well. This is still a board for discussion.

Although yes, guys you should probably take the convo to game discussion from this point if you feel it has become a full fledged debate.
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Old 2010-04-10, 13:43   Link #2020
Klashikari
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All posts regarding this "debate" was moved from the Q&A to this thread.
While I must say few answers are probably enlightening for some readers, there is a limit to a "interpretation joust".
It may not be your cup of tea, but it is perhaps wiser to call it "agree to disagree" instead of carrying this debate any further.

Feel free to settle few things up, but I would like this debate to be shortened into a civil discussion, not a terrible brawl regarding a mere matter of interpretation at hand, since such kind of heated debate is not only a good foothold for some flame session, but it is also an annoying surprise for readers, having a dragging not-so-nice-tchi-tchat plaguing what they are reading.
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