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Old 2010-06-12, 12:44   Link #2061
mAc Chaos
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Originally Posted by Grey View Post
That's why it's interesting when MoS Kotomine says Shirou will win. It makes me wonder if Kotomine would stop Gil from interfering with Shirou, because I'm really not sure how Shirou would win. It's interesting to think about it though.

The obvious way for Shirou to work is laying low, watching, and sniping when he could get away with it, like Kiritsugu once did. If he could get a rifle from the yakuza he's acquainted with, that could work out quite well. For instance, if Berserker was finishing off Archer (and far enough away from Ilya) that would be a perfect time to shoot Ilya. Two Servants and one Master down.

I'm still not sure how Kotomine expects Shirou to beat him and Gil though.
He gave Gilgamesh to Shinji. He could have given him to Shirou then let him "win" and watch the Grail get set loose.
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Old 2010-06-12, 12:49   Link #2062
Grey
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Originally Posted by mAc Chaos View Post
He gave Gilgamesh to Shinji. He could have given him to Shirou then let him "win" and watch the Grail get set loose.
Kotomine doesn't expect Shirou to use the Grail though. He expects Rin to want to use the Grail. He thinks Shirou will learn the truth of the corrupted Grail and kill Rin to stop her.
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Old 2010-06-12, 15:40   Link #2063
mAc Chaos
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Originally Posted by Grey View Post
Kotomine doesn't expect Shirou to use the Grail though. He expects Rin to want to use the Grail. He thinks Shirou will learn the truth of the corrupted Grail and kill Rin to stop her.
Well I meant, Gilgamesh can just do what he did to Shinji and ignore Shirou once they have the Grail in their grasp.
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Old 2010-06-12, 20:38   Link #2064
Endscape
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It doesn't matter because your opinion is still the same. It seems you're the one who takes no attention to the posts of others. First off I wonder on what you base that Sakura's mentally unstable after HF? She's more like emotionally scarred. From that view Saber too is mentally unstable as she lives with the constant guilt about her country. With a little twist even Rin is the same. Your statements are baseless and you give little reasoning behind it. It may be that you're just trying to bash their relationship. Well, good luck.
... You really don't read what people post, do you?

For one, I never said that Sakura had any serious problems post HF, I merely said I don't think it was healthy for her to start having a relationship with Shirou without working through her problems first, that's all.

As I said earlier, I have no problem with Sakura, or her relationship with Shirou. I won't deny that it's my least favourite pairing out of all possible F/SN pairings, but that's my personal opinion because it doesn't interest me at all. I'm certainly not bashing their relationship and I wonder why you insist that I am even though I've repeatedly said that I'm not.
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Old 2010-06-12, 21:58   Link #2065
RadiantBeam
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Finally managed to get my version of the game playing right, and damn is it addicting as hell. I'm still on the Fate route, but I'm up to the skyscraper scene with Rider and Shinji. I have to admit I'm enjoying it a lot so far; there's a bit more Saber/Shirou development than there was in the anime, and Shirou as a character gets expanded on a little more in the game. Always fun to see his inner thoughts, especially when Rin or Taiga's around.
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Old 2010-06-13, 16:05   Link #2066
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
And that starting a relationship utterly depending on the other party isn't a good thing for anyone.
I'd agree that utterly depending on someone isn't healthy, but I don't think it's any less healthy if you're in a relationship with them. At least that way that person is there to help you, rather than, for example, running away to the other side of the world with your big sister....

The point is that Sakura will become less dependant on Shirou as she gets used to having the freedom to be more than just Zouken's puppet. The game proves this (she becomes captain of the Archery club, for example), and HA proves it even more so. But, for her to do that, she first needs Shirou to be there for her. Him rejecting her on the grounds that she was too dependant on him would have hurt her severely. On the other hand, him being there to give her the emotional support and love she needs allows her to develop emotionally and to become a more normal person.

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Who knows?
I feel it is highly unlikely....

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By the time her mind broke down from the pain, would her body be any good anyway?
Zouken doesn't steal bodies whole. In HF, he eats the woman he steals the body from alive, and the body he gets is just fine. I'd imagine that it wouldn't be a problem for him to torture Sakura to death before stealing her body.

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Well, I'm sorry I must have imagined all the torture Sakura went through or Shirou's various problems...
None of that proves that they're mentally unstable. They have mental problems, yes, but they're not unstable, at least not post-HF.

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But he isn't the only possible person on the planet, so don't act like he is.
No, but he's one of a very small number who can help Sakura. And, since he's the one she loves, he's the most natural one to do so.

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That's a really odd statement. Then how would Sakura help him then?
Because, for her to be happy, he has to look out for himself, since she wants him to be happy. Rin, OTOH, is more selfish. She wants him to be happy too, but she'll be a lot happier with him becoming a glorified slave than Sakura would be.

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Maybe I was generalizing. usually such relationships fall apart but I suppose Shirou and Sakura can beat the odds.
Well, they undoubtedly did, if there are any odds to beat.

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I believe that people shouldn't start relationships when they have unresolved issues.
What unresolved issues? Their issues are all most easily cured by being in a loving relationship with each other.

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Maybe Shirou and Sakura can beat those odds, but I wouldn't test it. better safe than sorry, they say.
What were they supposed to do? Say "well, we love each other, but we have problems so let's stay apart"? Love doesn't work like that. To refuse to get into a relationship because of the fact that they're 'too devoted' to each other is utterly absurd.

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I said that two people with their problems shouldn't start a relationship lest they mess themselves in the end. If they can do that and not mess themselves up, wonderful (you're right in that they don't seem to have any problems) but they shouldn't take that chance.
Where do you get this from? If you want to believe that, fine, but I certainly don't.

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I didn't say that a rape victims hould go out and have random sex, but shouldn't jump straight into a sexual relationship with someone they care about.
It depends on them. If they want to have sex, and feel perfectly OK about doing so, I don't see a problem with it. It simply means they've got over the trauma (at least enough that they can have sex again). What shouldn't happen is for their partner to pressurise them into it when they're not ready.

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Didn't he start paying special attention to her since she was getting so sick all the time, due to Angra Mainyu?
Yeah, but he did that before Saber vanished. I see no reason to believe that keeping Saber around would have altered his relationship with Sakura in any way, any more than there is reason to believe that Sakura being around more in Fate would prevent Shirou gettign into a relationship with Saber.

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Really? If his love can get buried and forgotten so easily, is it love? That's why i thought he fell in love with her during HF
Well, he cares deeply about her, certainly, and he also finds her exceptionally attractive. So, perhaps he doesn't truly love her, but all the ingredients that are needed for him to love her are there. All he needs to do is realise how much he cares for her and how stunningly beautiful he finds her and him falling in love with her is pretty much inevitable. It's just that he's in denial, claiming that she's like a sister to him.

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Originally Posted by Grey View Post
That's why it's interesting when MoS Kotomine says Shirou will win. It makes me wonder if Kotomine would stop Gil from interfering with Shirou, because I'm really not sure how Shirou would win. It's interesting to think about it though.
We don't know that he actually does. After all, all we get is Kotomine's opinion, and he could be wrong, or he could be misleading them. After all, Kotomine is not omniscient, and he's renowned for trolling. He's going to make damn sure he gets his enjoyment from the whole thing, and that means he's bound to get involved somehow.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
For one, I never said that Sakura had any serious problems post HF, I merely said I don't think it was healthy for her to start having a relationship with Shirou without working through her problems first, that's all.
Except that you've provided no good reason why this is the case. The only reason it would be is if she has serious problems. In the state she's in post-HF, she can manage a relationship with Shirou just fine. They may be a little too selfless, at first, but they will get better over time. There are no signs whatsoever in the game of their relationship having problems, and if problems were going to arise, they would have arisen pretty early on. Since they've been going for two years and are still perfectly happy together, I think it's safe to say that they have no serious problems.

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I'm certainly not bashing their relationship and I wonder why you insist that I am even though I've repeatedly said that I'm not.
You've repeatedly claimed that their relationship can't work and that they're foolish for getting into one. That certainly sounds like you're bashing it to me. And, the fact that you're claiming otherwise is entirely irrelevant....

Last edited by Cherry_Lover; 2010-06-13 at 16:38.
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Old 2010-06-13, 21:40   Link #2067
Endscape
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I'd agree that utterly depending on someone isn't healthy, but I don't think it's any less healthy if you're in a relationship with them. At least that way that person is there to help you, rather than, for example, running away to the other side of the world with your big sister....

The point is that Sakura will become less dependant on Shirou as she gets used to having the freedom to be more than just Zouken's puppet. The game proves this (she becomes captain of the Archery club, for example), and HA proves it even more so. But, for her to do that, she first needs Shirou to be there for her. Him rejecting her on the grounds that she was too dependant on him would have hurt her severely. On the other hand, him being there to give her the emotional support and love she needs allows her to develop emotionally and to become a more normal person.
That is all I was saying, that her utterly depending on Shirou was unhealthy. And getting into a relationship with someone in that state isn't something that healthy either. If Shirou and Sakura can do that without messing themselves up, that's fine.

Also I never said that he shouldn't have a relationship with her, just that they probably shouldn't rush into a romantic one. Patience is a virtue, and he can help her without being in a romantic relationship.

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I feel it is highly unlikely....
Again, who knows?

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Zouken doesn't steal bodies whole. In HF, he eats the woman he steals the body from alive, and the body he gets is just fine. I'd imagine that it wouldn't be a problem for him to torture Sakura to death before stealing her body.
Ah, yeah, I forgot that part. But Gilgamesh did destroy the worms in UBW. Even if he lived inside Sakura, where would he get more worms?

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None of that proves that they're mentally unstable. They have mental problems, yes, but they're not unstable, at least not post-HF.
Yes, they have some issues, I just stated that they should work them out before jumping into a relationship. And I never said anything about post HF.


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No, but he's one of a very small number who can help Sakura. And, since he's the one she loves, he's the most natural one to do so.
But he isn't the only person that can help her, which is what I said.

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Because, for her to be happy, he has to look out for himself, since she wants him to be happy. Rin, OTOH, is more selfish. She wants him to be happy too, but she'll be a lot happier with him becoming a glorified slave than Sakura would be.
That's complete rubbish. Did you play UBW? Rin isn't going to turn him into a slave. She too wants him to like himself. Archer, who is Shirou believed that she can do that, so she very well can, just as much as Sakura could.

It's funny. I merely make 1 or 2 statements about Sakura putting a relationship on hold and I hear how I'm bashing her, and pulling things out of my ass, yet you do the same with Rin.

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Well, they undoubtedly did, if there are any odds to beat.
Which is what I said.

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What unresolved issues? Their issues are all most easily cured by being in a loving relationship with each other.
Problems normally aren't solved so easily, you know? but if think so, go ahead

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What were they supposed to do? Say "well, we love each other, but we have problems so let's stay apart"? Love doesn't work like that. To refuse to get into a relationship because of the fact that they're 'too devoted' to each other is utterly absurd.
Why do you insist on twisting my words? What I said is that they should probably remain friends before having a romantic relationship, so that both of them can work out their problems and get a little perspective first.. A little patience, was all I said.

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Where do you get this from? If you want to believe that, fine, but I certainly don't.
Psychology, experience, and common sense.

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It depends on them. If they want to have sex, and feel perfectly OK about doing so, I don't see a problem with it. It simply means they've got over the trauma (at least enough that they can have sex again). What shouldn't happen is for their partner to pressurise them into it when they're not ready.
Yes, which is what I said. I just stated that having a romantic relationship after such a traumatic event might be unhealthy. If the couple understands this, has a relationship and it works out, more power to them.

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Yeah, but he did that before Saber vanished. I see no reason to believe that keeping Saber around would have altered his relationship with Sakura in any way, any more than there is reason to believe that Sakura being around more in Fate would prevent Shirou gettign into a relationship with Saber.
I can understand your perspective. I just wondered if he would continue to pay her such attention if Saber stayed, that's all

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Well, he cares deeply about her, certainly, and he also finds her exceptionally attractive. So, perhaps he doesn't truly love her, but all the ingredients that are needed for him to love her are there. All he needs to do is realise how much he cares for her and how stunningly beautiful he finds her and him falling in love with her is pretty much inevitable. It's just that he's in denial, claiming that she's like a sister to him.
Yes, he has feelings for her, but not love. Which is what I said.

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Except that you've provided no good reason why this is the case. The only reason it would be is if she has serious problems. In the state she's in post-HF, she can manage a relationship with Shirou just fine. They may be a little too selfless, at first, but they will get better over time. There are no signs whatsoever in the game of their relationship having problems, and if problems were going to arise, they would have arisen pretty early on. Since they've been going for two years and are still perfectly happy together, I think it's safe to say that they have no serious problems.
Issues mess up relationships. This happens. As you said, they seem fine post HF, they don't look like they're having any problems.

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You've repeatedly claimed that their relationship can't work and that they're foolish for getting into one. That certainly sounds like you're bashing it to me. And, the fact that you're claiming otherwise is entirely irrelevant....
...

Will you please not put words in my mouth?

I never said that they're relationship can't work, just that it might be better for them to work out their problems before getting into a relationship. And I certainly never said that they're foolish for getting into one.

Just to say it again, I don't hate Sakura nor do I bash her. I'm not even really interested in her at all as a a character.

Also, please don't ignore what people say or put words in their mouth just so you can declare that they're bashing your favourite character.
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Old 2010-06-14, 20:34   Link #2068
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
That is all I was saying, that her utterly depending on Shirou was unhealthy. And getting into a relationship with someone in that state isn't something that healthy either.
The first I agree with, but not the second. Whilst Sakura's reliance on Shirou is undoubtedly not healthy, given that she has it, it is better for her to be in a relationship with him, where she's expected to depend on him to a certain extent and care deeply for him than in a situation where she's not.

If she lives her live in fear of her problems, and avoids getting into relationships with people in case she comes to depend too much on them then she'll never get better. By living with him and being in a relationship where they care for each other and mutually love each other, she has that support there. She knows that, no matter what, he will be there for her, and his love will allow her to grow and make other friends, so she no longer needs to depend totally on him. But, she needs him by her side to help her gain the confidence to do that. For him to basically turn round to her and say "well, you're too broken for me to get into a relationship with you" would destroy her self-confidence and make her much worse.

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Also I never said that he shouldn't have a relationship with her, just that they probably shouldn't rush into a romantic one. Patience is a virtue, and he can help her without being in a romantic relationship.
It doesn't work like that. They both love each other, and there is no reason why their relationship should be expected to fail, so why not get together? Avoiding getting into a relationship with someone you love just because you're scared that your issues will break you apart is stupid.

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Ah, yeah, I forgot that part. But Gilgamesh did destroy the worms in UBW.
He destroyed some of the worms, not all of them.

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Even if he lived inside Sakura, where would he get more worms?
He makes them, using either his prana supply or the bodies of the people he eats (I'm not sure which, possibly both). I think he can make more from nowhere, though, because he does so at the end of HF (although he still dies, he manages to prolong his life by a few hours even after Sakura crushes him).

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Yes, they have some issues, I just stated that they should work them out before jumping into a relationship.
And I still don't see why they need to. There is nothing there that would cause their relationship to break down.

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And I never said anything about post HF.
Post-HF is the only time they're in a relationship.

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But he isn't the only person that can help her, which is what I said.
No, perhaps not. But, it's going to be very hard for her to find someone else who can, especially since she needs someone who she can talk to. Shirou is by far the best option.

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That's complete rubbish. Did you play UBW? Rin isn't going to turn him into a slave.
That's just my opinion of how it'll end up. Rin will end up getting Shirou to do all the housework etc., and will thoroughly dominate their relationship, IMO.

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She too wants him to like himself.
Yes, but unlike Sakura, she doesn't know how. Sakura can make him like himself because she's just the same. But, with Rin, he'll just end up doing what she wants all the time and caring for her, because she can be happy (to a certain extent) even if he's just doing everything for her all the time, whereas Sakura can't be.

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Problems normally aren't solved so easily, you know? but if think so, go ahead
Perhaps not, but I don't see how not getting into a relationship will help. Especially since they can hardly go to a psychiatrist....

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Why do you insist on twisting my words? What I said is that they should probably remain friends before having a romantic relationship, so that both of them can work out their problems and get a little perspective first.. A little patience, was all I said.
It doesn't work like that, though. They fell in love during HF, and got into a romantic relationship there. It's not like they sat down and thought "hmm, is this a good idea?". However, had they avoided such a relationship, it's likely that the ending would have been worse, because without the closeness and the confidence Shirou gave Sakura, I doubt he'd have been able to save her.

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Psychology, experience, and common sense.
Well, it doesn't seem like common sense to me. If two people are utterly devoted to each other, then to me the obvious solution is for them to be together, not for them to say "oh, we have issues, let's wait".

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I can understand your perspective. I just wondered if he would continue to pay her such attention if Saber stayed, that's all
Why wouldn't he? Sakura is the one who is in danger, after all. He cares about her, and that wouldn't change if Saber isn't there.

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Yes, he has feelings for her, but not love. Which is what I said.
I believe that he does love her, essentially. He's just in denial. But, anyway, it's just semantics. The point is that he cares deeply for her.

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Issues mess up relationships. This happens. As you said, they seem fine post HF, they don't look like they're having any problems.
Yes, they do, but it depends on the problems. In this case, their issues consist of having no sense of self-worth. And, that is something that their relationship will help them with, in a way that little else can.

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I never said that they're relationship can't work, just that it might be better for them to work out their problems before getting into a relationship.
Really, because it certainly seemed like you were saying that. Or, rather, that you were saying it couldn't work in the way that it was done in HF.

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And I certainly never said that they're foolish for getting into one.
Really, because that's certainly the impression I got from your comments.

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Also, please don't ignore what people say or put words in their mouth just so you can declare that they're bashing your favourite character.
I never claimed you were bashing her. I said you were bashing their relationship. And, I can't see what else you can call your statements.
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Old 2010-06-15, 09:05   Link #2069
Endscape
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The first I agree with, but not the second. Whilst Sakura's reliance on Shirou is undoubtedly not healthy, given that she has it, it is better for her to be in a relationship with him, where she's expected to depend on him to a certain extent and care deeply for him than in a situation where she's not.

If she lives her live in fear of her problems, and avoids getting into relationships with people in case she comes to depend too much on them then she'll never get better. By living with him and being in a relationship where they care for each other and mutually love each other, she has that support there. She knows that, no matter what, he will be there for her, and his love will allow her to grow and make other friends, so she no longer needs to depend totally on him. But, she needs him by her side to help her gain the confidence to do that. For him to basically turn round to her and say "well, you're too broken for me to get into a relationship with you" would destroy her self-confidence and make her much worse.
I never said to live in fear of her problems, just that some time working through her problems before entering a romantic relationship might be wise. Shirou would still be right there next to her, r can he only help her when he's in a romantic relationship with her.

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It doesn't work like that. They both love each other, and there is no reason why their relationship should be expected to fail, so why not get together? Avoiding getting into a relationship with someone you love just because you're scared that your issues will break you apart is stupid.
Yes, they both love each other, but their issues might mess them up, so it might be good for them to take some time to work it out, just be friends before making that leap.

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He destroyed some of the worms, not all of them.
Really? I'll have to re-watch that scene.

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He makes them, using either his prana supply or the bodies of the people he eats (I'm not sure which, possibly both). I think he can make more from nowhere, though, because he does so at the end of HF (although he still dies, he manages to prolong his life by a few hours even after Sakura crushes him).
Make them out of nowhere? LOL, that's Magic I believe. and in HF, doesn't he just stuff his soul into some left over worm he had laying about.

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And I still don't see why they need to. There is nothing there that would cause their relationship to break down.
Wow, I must have imagined all that rape and torture Sakura went through. It may or may not affect any relationship with Shirou, but a little patience nevre killed anyone.

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Post-HF is the only time they're in a relationship.
So what did they have during HF then?

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No, perhaps not. But, it's going to be very hard for her to find someone else who can, especially since she needs someone who she can talk to. Shirou is by far the best option.
But not the only one, which is what I was saying.

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That's just my opinion of how it'll end up. Rin will end up getting Shirou to do all the housework etc., and will thoroughly dominate their relationship, IMO.
Again, did you play UBW? Rin needs Shirou just as much as he needs her, she says as much to Archer. As for housework, he'll do it because she doesn't really want to, and he's a bit of a clean freak. She won't be whipping him to clean her house.


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Yes, but unlike Sakura, she doesn't know how. Sakura can make him like himself because she's just the same. But, with Rin, he'll just end up doing what she wants all the time and caring for her, because she can be happy (to a certain extent) even if he's just doing everything for her all the time, whereas Sakura can't be.
LOL, what?

Rin can make him like himself by being there for him and helping him, same as Sakura. You don't need to be the same as someone or have undergone the same trauma to do that. it's helpful, but isn't 100% necessary. And Shirou, (if you played UBW you would realize) isn't going to be bullied by Rin that much.

Really, you accuse me of bashing Shirou/Sakura because I offered an opinion about their relationship. So what are you doing her then?

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Perhaps not, but I don't see how not getting into a relationship will help. Especially since they can hardly go to a psychiatrist....
They can be friends, can't they? I never said he should just disappear. Or can he only help her when he's in a romantic relationship.

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It doesn't work like that, though. They fell in love during HF, and got into a romantic relationship there. It's not like they sat down and thought "hmm, is this a good idea?". However, had they avoided such a relationship, it's likely that the ending would have been worse, because without the closeness and the confidence Shirou gave Sakura, I doubt he'd have been able to save her.
Yes, they did fall in love during HF. They didn't think about it, but what I'm saying is, that might have been a good idea. And being Sakura's friend wouldn't have changed Shirou's determination that much, as long as he was in love with her.

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Well, it doesn't seem like common sense to me. If two people are utterly devoted to each other, then to me the obvious solution is for them to be together, not for them to say "oh, we have issues, let's wait".
I like how you ignored the first two things I said. As for common sense, here's an analogy: You have a car and you want to go somewhere, however the brakes are broken and there's a chance they might fail during the drive. You can drive anyway and take the chance, and there's good odds you might make it. However, getting the brakes checked is the more cautious decision, right? That's what we call common sense.

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Why wouldn't he? Sakura is the one who is in danger, after all. He cares about her, and that wouldn't change if Saber isn't there.
I suppose.

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I believe that he does love her, essentially. He's just in denial. But, anyway, it's just semantics. The point is that he cares deeply for her.
Well, i think he had some feelings for her that turned into love.

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Yes, they do, but it depends on the problems. In this case, their issues consist of having no sense of self-worth. And, that is something that their relationship will help them with, in a way that little else can.
Again, if he isn't having a romantic relationship with her he can't help her. A little patience won't kill her.

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Really, because it certainly seemed like you were saying that. Or, rather, that you were saying it couldn't work in the way that it was done in HF.
You're putting words in my mouth. I just offered an opinion, that's all.

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Really, because that's certainly the impression I got from your comments.
You're making things up. Or in your mind everyone who doesn't think that Shirou/Sakura is the greatest thing ever, or might have an opinion about their relationship you don't agree with, automatically thinks it's foolish, right?

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I never claimed you were bashing her. I said you were bashing their relationship. And, I can't see what else you can call your statements.
I was offering an opinion on their relationship, that's all.

And seriously, why would I bash it. As I said before, I hate bashing, don't like it. And even if I did bash thins, Shirou/Sakura doesn't interest me enough to do that. I really have barely any interest in their relationship.

Also, do you call this bashing? You must never have met people that really hate Sakura then.
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Old 2010-06-16, 11:22   Link #2070
Star Psyren 95
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Join Date: Jun 2010
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I'm reading Heaven's Feel at the moment. Finished the day where Sakura one shots Gil. This route really is a difference maker compared to Fate and UBW. It's like the situations gets hopelessly worse and worse.
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Old 2010-06-16, 13:37   Link #2071
panos
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Age: 29
Help please...

I have searched the whole net and i can't find/understand/remember some parts especially in the heavens feel plot(since i have finished the visual for about 2 years).
1)In the third part as we all know Shirou decides to abandon his ideals of becoming a super hero and save Sakura.That decision i think that it should affect whether Shirou becomes a heroic spirit or not(something that Archer did not want for Shirou in ubw).So,since Shirou has changed his ideals why Archer even exists as a heroic spirit?That was the whole part in ubw,Archer wanted to murder Shirou so as not to regret becoming a heroic spirit.
2)kotomine kirei.He has been already dead in the previous War when he was shot by Kiritsugu, but the power of the tainted Holy Grail entered him through
his Servant, and came back with a fake black heart.what happened?
3)Was Ilya's body supposed to be used as the vessel for the Grail at the 4th grail war?(the one war where kiritsugu destroyed the grail).If so,when kiritsugu
destroyed the grail he even prolonged Ilya's life(Ilya is older than shirou and a homonculous).Then why is she mad against kiritsugu?Where was she during the 4th grail war when kiritsugu destroyed the grail,shot kotomine and part of the content of the grail splashed on him?
4)What exactly did Matou Zoken with his mother worm inside Sakura's body?I know that he had put the vessel of a holy grail war inside Sakura's body into a form of a worm(i believe it was the third Grail War since Ilya was alive at the fourth Grail War and Kiritsugu would have done something for this).So.how the hell should the content of the Grail(Angra Manyou) should pass inside Sakura's body since he put the vessel?I'am starting to wonder why Sakura didn't awaken in the first two parts by this worm.Was it something Zoken did?I can't remember...Why did Zoken wanted to take over Sakura's body when the evil existence was born.What did he want to achieve?
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Old 2010-06-16, 13:41   Link #2072
panos
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Originally Posted by Star Psyren 95 View Post
I'm reading Heaven's Feel at the moment. Finished the day where Sakura one shots Gil. This route really is a difference maker compared to Fate and UBW. It's like the situations gets hopelessly worse and worse.
Tell me about it...
This path is the most complicated and the nost big of all.
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Old 2010-06-16, 13:57   Link #2073
Star Psyren 95
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So,since Shirou has changed his ideals why Archer even exists as a heroic spirit?That was the whole part in ubw,Archer wanted to murder Shirou so as not to regret becoming a heroic spirit.
Archer is from a different timelime where he won the Grail War and became a superhero. Once you become a Counter Guardian (and/or Heroic Spirit), you're not affected by time and space.

Quote:
Then why is she mad against kiritsugu?Where was she during the 4th grail war when kiritsugu destroyed the grail,shot kotomine and part of the content of the grail splashed on him?
I have 2 explanations for that

1) He betrayed the Einzbern's wishes of winning the Grail for them

2) He's her father and he died before she got to know him better plus he spent the last of his days with Shiro instead of her. Maybe she got jealous about that but has a sort of envy for Shiro. Hence why she likes mainly Shiro.
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Old 2010-06-16, 14:40   Link #2074
panos
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Originally Posted by Star Psyren 95 View Post
Archer is from a different timelime where he won the Grail War and became a superhero. Once you become a Counter Guardian (and/or Heroic Spirit), you're not affected by time and space.

So,even if Archer managed to kill Shirou in ubw nothing would have changed for him.Then,was it preferable to kill his own old stupid self so as not to grow and live a life full of regrets than let him live?Either way Archer would have remained a heroic spirit,by what you are saying nothing can be undone so why bother?




I have 2 explanations for that

1) He betrayed the Einzbern's wishes of winning the Grail for them

2) He's her father and he died before she got to know him better plus he spent the last of his days with Shiro instead of her. Maybe she got jealous about that but has a sort of envy for Shiro. Hence why she likes mainly Shiro.
Ok,i agree with that.What about the third part of the question.There is no reference about Ilya absorbing the souls of the servants,when she was even younger,as the vessel for the 4th Holy Grail War.Was she even used as a vessel for the 4th Grail War?Since they had created her and all 3 previous attempts resulted in failure why not use her.If you have seen the 1st episode first scene wherw Kiritsugu fights Kotomine and him destroying the grail you want see Ilya near them...
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Old 2010-06-16, 14:47   Link #2075
Star Psyren 95
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Ok,i agree with that.What about the third part of the question.There is no reference about Ilya absorbing the souls of the servants,when she was even younger,as the vessel for the 4th Holy Grail War.Was she even used as a vessel for the 4th Grail War?Since they had created her and all 3 previous attempts resulted in failure why not use her.If you have seen the 1st episode first scene wherw Kiritsugu fights Kotomine and him destroying the grail you want see Ilya near them...
Illya was still young at the time. But her mother is a different story.
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Old 2010-06-16, 15:02   Link #2076
willyvereb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panos View Post
I have searched the whole net and i can't find/understand/remember some parts especially in the heavens feel plot(since i have finished the visual for about 2 years).
1)In the third part as we all know Shirou decides to abandon his ideals of becoming a super hero and save Sakura.That decision i think that it should affect whether Shirou becomes a heroic spirit or not(something that Archer did not want for Shirou in ubw).So,since Shirou has changed his ideals why Archer even exists as a heroic spirit?That was the whole part in ubw,Archer wanted to murder Shirou so as not to regret becoming a heroic spirit.
Because the world of Nasuverse has established paralell universes and even a magic to cross between them(the 2nd Sorcery, Kaleidoscope. Zelretch's magic). In FSN there's no stable time loop. If it were like that Archer wouldn't plan such a serious paradox. He would only need to stray Shirou from his original route and he's done. But things aren't as easy of course...


Quote:
2)kotomine kirei.He has been already dead in the previous War when he was shot by Kiritsugu, but the power of the tainted Holy Grail entered him through
his Servant, and came back with a fake black heart.what happened?
The Grail and the will of Angra Mainyou chose Kirei and the curse kept him alive through a fake heart. That's what happened and also made Kirei aware of the true nature of the Grail even more.

Quote:
3)Was Ilya's body supposed to be used as the vessel for the Grail at the 4th grail war?(the one war where kiritsugu destroyed the grail).If so,when Kiritsugu destroyed the grail he even prolonged Ilya's life(Ilya is older than shirou and a homonculous).Then why is she mad against kiritsugu?Where was she during the 4th grail war when kiritsugu destroyed the grail,shot kotomine and part of the content of the grail splashed on him?
She was at home at the Einzberns somewhere in Europe. Like her mother Irisviel Illya too never left the Einzbern main house prior to the Grail War she participated. Illya loved both her mother and especially her father vry much. Well, until the 4th Grail War where both of his parents were gone and they never came back. Irisviel was dead and all he knew that Kiritsugu puprosedly betrayed the Einzberns. Acht the leader of the Eizberns misled her and hinted her with half-truths to fuel her rage. He prohibited Kiritsugu to come back or even see Illya anymore. That's what happened. And while Illya hated Kiritsugu she wanted to see him once again even more, a wish she never got granted.

Quote:
4)What exactly did Matou Zoken with his mother worm inside Sakura's body?I know that he had put the vessel of a holy grail war inside Sakura's body into a form of a worm(i believe it was the third Grail War since Ilya was alive at the fourth Grail War and Kiritsugu would have done something for this).So.how the hell should the content of the Grail(Angra Manyou) should pass inside Sakura's body since he put the vessel?I'am starting to wonder why Sakura didn't awaken in the first two parts by this worm.Was it something Zoken did?I can't remember...Why did Zoken wanted to take over Sakura's body when the evil existence was born.What did he want to achieve?
You have a serious misconception here. Kiritsugu was never the classical hero neither had the network to know what the other mages do behind the curtains. Zouken implanted the remains of the Fourth Grail in a form of Crest Worms inside sakura. Well, she already had worms inside her for a whole year so it didn't make much difference then. The contents of the corrupted Grail made her similar to Illya a precursor container for the Grail to be summoned. You can say she became a fake Holy Grail. And as thefragments were already corrupted and due to her incredible compatibilty she had a half-working contract with Avanger(Angra Mainyou).

Sakura didn't awaken because both the influence of the Grail and Zouken's attempts to break her will wasn't enough. No matter what he did Sakura had no intention to fight neither an urge to give in to the darkness. In HF Zouken plans a huge Xanatus Roulette to put Sakura under a huge emotional stress to accomplish it.

Zouken's intention was to hijack the Holy Grail Wars and access the Grail in his own way. He wanted to turn immortal though his original intention was much more noble(which he forgot due to the intense pain coming with his pseudo-immortal body and the insanity where he started to succumb to).


That's about it. I hope it helps.
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Old 2010-06-16, 15:17   Link #2077
panos
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Because the world of Nasuverse has established paralell universes and even a magic to cross between them(the 2nd Sorcery, Kaleidoscope. Zelretch's magic). In FSN there's no stable time loop. If it were like that Archer wouldn't plan such a serious paradox. He would only need to stray Shirou from his original route and he's done. But things aren't as easy of course...




The Grail and the will of Angra Mainyou chose Kirei and the curse kept him alive through a fake heart. That's what happened and also made Kirei aware of the true nature of the Grail even more.



She was at home at the Einzberns somewhere in Europe. Like her mother Irisviel Illya too never left the Einzbern main house prior to the Grail War she participated. Illya loved both her mother and especially her father vry much. Well, until the 4th Grail War where both of his parents were gone and they never came back. Irisviel was dead and all he knew that Kiritsugu puprosedly betrayed the Einzberns. Acht the leader of the Eizberns misled her and hinted her with half-truths to fuel her rage. He prohibited Kiritsugu to come back or even see Illya anymore. That's what happened. And while Illya hated Kiritsugu she wanted to see him once again even more, a wish she never got granted.



You have a serious misconception here. Kiritsugu was never the classical hero neither had the network to know what the other mages do behind the curtains. Zouken implanted the remains of the Fourth Grail in a form of Crest Worms inside sakura. Well, she already had worms inside her for a whole year so it didn't make much difference then. The contents of the corrupted Grail made her similar to Illya a precursor container for the Grail to be summoned. You can say she became a fake Holy Grail. And as thefragments were already corrupted and due to her incredible compatibilty she had a half-working contract with Avanger(Angra Mainyou).

Sakura didn't awaken because both the influence of the Grail and Zouken's attempts to break her will wasn't enough. No matter what he did Sakura had no intention to fight neither an urge to give in to the darkness. In HF Zouken plans a huge Xanatus Roulette to put Sakura under a huge emotional stress to accomplish it.

Zouken's intention was to hijack the Holy Grail Wars and access the Grail in his own way. He wanted to turn immortal though his original intention was much more noble(which he forgot due to the intense pain coming with his pseudo-immortal body and the insanity where he started to succumb to).


That's about it. I hope it helps.
Thanks it helped a lot!I must play fate hollow ataraxia i believe because some of the things you posted in your third answer about Ilya i have never heard them before...
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Old 2010-06-16, 15:24   Link #2078
willyvereb
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More like you should read Fate/Zero and visit the TM-related boards to know. Fate/Zero is about to be translated. Currently they're 3/4 done. Only the final volume of the Light Novel is left.
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Old 2010-06-16, 17:56   Link #2079
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by panos View Post
2)kotomine kirei.He has been already dead in the previous War when he was shot by Kiritsugu, but the power of the tainted Holy Grail entered him through his Servant, and came back with a fake black heart.what happened?
That's a pretty good description of it....

Quote:
3)Was Ilya's body supposed to be used as the vessel for the Grail at the 4th grail war?(the one war where kiritsugu destroyed the grail).If so,when kiritsugu destroyed the grail he even prolonged Ilya's life(Ilya is older than shirou and a homonculous).Then why is she mad against kiritsugu?Where was she during the 4th grail war when kiritsugu destroyed the grail,shot kotomine and part of the content of the grail splashed on him?
No, the Grail in the fourth war was her mother, Irisviel. They look virtually identical, hence why you mistook them. She died at the end of the war because Kiritsugu was forced to kill her to destroy the Grail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Star Psyren 95 View Post
Archer is from a different timelime where he won the Grail War and became a superhero. Once you become a Counter Guardian (and/or Heroic Spirit), you're not affected by time and space.
Yeah, this.

Quote:
I have 2 explanations for that

1) He betrayed the Einzbern's wishes of winning the Grail for them

2) He's her father and he died before she got to know him better plus he spent the last of his days with Shiro instead of her. Maybe she got jealous about that but has a sort of envy for Shiro. Hence why she likes mainly Shiro.
It's mainly number two. However, her hatred of him was stoked by the Einsberns, who told her that he had abandoned her for Shirou, whereas in fact the Einsberns had prevented him from contacting her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
You have a serious misconception here. Kiritsugu was never the classical hero neither had the network to know what the other mages do behind the curtains. Zouken implanted the remains of the Fourth Grail in a form of Crest Worms inside sakura. Well, she already had worms inside her for a whole year so it didn't make much difference then.
I suspect, actually, that if Kiritsugu knew the truth, he would have either tried to help her, or he would have killed her and Zouken ASAP. However, he had no reason to know.
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Old 2010-07-05, 15:53   Link #2080
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Inevitably drawing closer to the Heaven's Feel route, but in no way at all am I looking forward to it. I'm kind of stalling by replaying through Unlimited Blade Works to get the Good End for the route, since I got the True End on my first play through. Hopefully I'll make the right choices to get to it.
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