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Old 2010-07-24, 08:39   Link #2301
Moczo
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I'm still curious if Perseus would get those three items because they're attached to other stories more strongly. For example, the Sandals of Hermes are attached to Perseus's legend, yes, but they're more strongly attached to the legend of Hermes himself. Now, it's not possible to summon Hermes as a Servant since he's a god and not a heroic spirit, but he is still the being the Sandals are most associated with. I guess my real question is: Does a Heroic Spirit get to use an item as a Noble Phantasm if it's connected to another being more strongly than it is to them?
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Old 2010-07-24, 08:47   Link #2302
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Yes they do, point in case: Rider. She's able to summon Pegasus, who himself has a much stronger connection to Bellerophon's story than Medusa's, yet Medusa is able to summon him simply because he plays a part in her legend.
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Old 2010-07-24, 09:37   Link #2303
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Well, that depends on what you consider a stronger connection. He's a major part of Bellerophon's story, but ultimately the guy just rode him, while Medusa is actually his mother.

EDIT: Though as I think about it, this isn't actually an example. Pegasus is not considered a Noble Phantasm; the NP 'Bellerophon' is the reins she uses to bring out his full power. Pegasus himself is a living divine beast that she's able to summon as an innate ability because of their personal connection. He's not a weapon, but a real living thing that she calls to her aid from wherever he happens to be.

Really, this is another one of those questions that could only be answered if you actually summoned two Servants who were both connected to a single item and see if they both have it, or if one received the weapon over the other one. If they both get a 'copy' then Perseus probably would be able to use his Divine gifts, or at least some of them. If not, then he wouldn't. So if anyone wants to get started on setting up a Holy Grail War so we can figure that out, please go right ahead.

I call dibs on Lancer.

Last edited by Moczo; 2010-07-24 at 10:04. Reason: Because I used the word 'actual' like, five times in there. It just annoyed me.
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Old 2010-07-24, 10:18   Link #2304
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By connection I mean the whole 'who is best known for using it' thing. Pegasus was born from Medusa's death, and that's really the only link they have, yet Rider able to summon him.

And even if we use the reins, that is even less of a connection to Medusa, since Medusa was long gone, dead and used as a weapon before Bellerophon tamed Pegasus. So that proves even more that servants are able to summon any weapon they were known to wield as noble phantasms, regardless if they were the 'most' known for them.

So yes, Perseus would be able to call upon all of his weapons and armor. Perhaps they would even combine into a single noble phantasm, like Gilgamesh's armory.

Hmm, I wonder if I could summon a genderbend Sun Tzu... what class would he be anyway?
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Old 2010-07-24, 10:32   Link #2305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
By connection I mean the whole 'who is best known for using it' thing. Pegasus was born from Medusa's death, and that's really the only link they have, yet Rider able to summon him.

And even if we use the reins, that is even less of a connection to Medusa, since Medusa was long gone, dead and used as a weapon before Bellerophon tamed Pegasus. So that proves even more that servants are able to summon any weapon they were known to wield as noble phantasms, regardless if they were the 'most' known for them.

So yes, Perseus would be able to call upon all of his weapons and armor. Perhaps they would even combine into a single noble phantasm, like Gilgamesh's armory.

Hmm, I wonder if I could summon a genderbend Sun Tzu... what class would he be anyway?
My point concerning Pegasus is that it doesn't follow the rules of a Noble Phantasm anyway; it's not a weapon, it's the same Pegasus from the legend that's been alive out in the world since the age of the gods. She didn't get a copy of it created from the Throne of Heroes, she actually called the physical, living Pegasus to her through their shared blood. Bellerophon might well have the same power, but if both of them tried to use it at once then only one would get the Pegasus because it's not something that's part of their spirit, but a summoned Divine Beast.

And really, the more I think about it, the more I think that Perseus would probably be given his full divine armament, but most likely some of them would be present in conceptual form as his skills. The Helmet of Hades could easily manifest as ranks in Presence Concealment, the Shield of Athena as ranks in Protection from Arrows, things like that.

Sun Tzu? I... have no idea. His big traits were strategy and philosophy... maybe a Caster? Some kind of reality warping thing, like magic that rearranges battle conditions to suit his purposes. I don't even know.
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Old 2010-07-24, 10:56   Link #2306
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Hmm, I wonder if I could summon a genderbend Sun Tzu... what class would he be anyway?
Rider, Archer, or Berserker. Rider and Berserker have the most vague parameters of use, and Archer has that whole "act of their own accord" thing which could fit a tactician.
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Old 2010-07-24, 12:19   Link #2307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moczo View Post
My point concerning Pegasus is that it doesn't follow the rules of a Noble Phantasm anyway; it's not a weapon, it's the same Pegasus from the legend that's been alive out in the world since the age of the gods. She didn't get a copy of it created from the Throne of Heroes, she actually called the physical, living Pegasus to her through their shared blood.
Yes, but what about the reins she uses to tame him? Her NP is not Pegasus, it's Bellophron, and that would certainly have more connection to Bellophron's legend than to Rider's.

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Rider, Archer, or Berserker. Rider and Berserker have the most vague parameters of use, and Archer has that whole "act of their own accord" thing which could fit a tactician.
Well, Alexander the Great was summoned as a Rider, so it seems that great generals tend to fit that category. Berserker wouldn't work unless he had gone insane at some point, and even then summoning someone who is known for his thinking as a Berserker would somewhat defeat the point....
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Old 2010-07-24, 12:31   Link #2308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Yes, but what about the reins she uses to tame him? Her NP is not Pegasus, it's Bellophron, and that would certainly have more connection to Bellophron's legend than to Rider's.
Maybe Bellerophon didn't actually exist. Sasaki Koujiro didn't, so we know not every legend is true. Perhaps 'Bellerophon' was never anything but those animal taming reins, Medusa's riding equipment, and the name was later attached to a completely fictitious story of a man taming Pegasus.

(edit: Went to check out the NP's description in the game, and it was no help. All it says is 'Bellerophon is the name of the young man in Greek mythology who supposedly managed to ride Pegasus'. Thank you so much for not confirming if he existed outside mythology or actually rode Pegasus, game...)

Last edited by Moczo; 2010-07-24 at 12:46.
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Old 2010-07-24, 12:49   Link #2309
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Well, Alexander the Great was summoned as a Rider, so it seems that great generals tend to fit that category. Berserker wouldn't work unless he had gone insane at some point, and even then summoning someone who is known for his thinking as a Berserker would somewhat defeat the point....
There's precedent for tacticians to be Berserkers (see Fate/Extra).
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Old 2010-07-24, 15:26   Link #2310
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You mean Lu Bu? If I had to guess, I'd say he was summoned as a berserker because his legend in Romance of the Three Kingdoms calls him the strongest warrior of China, not because of his tactical genius. The former makes him a perfect candidate for being a berserker, the later would make it rather useless to do so. Summoning a tactician as the berserker card be like summoning Merlin and making him saber instead of caster: A total misplacement of his role and waste of natural talents.

I'm not familiar enough with Sun Tzu to place him in a class... but so far Archer sounds like a close choice. The Archer class's sharp vision would be invaluable for a tactician.
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Old 2010-07-24, 16:18   Link #2311
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Archer might work, now that I stop to think about it. Sun Tzu in actual combat strikes me as being pretty close to Emiya in the sense of being statistically weak, but using experience and tactics to compensate. As a class focused on long-range combat, Archer could be a pretty good fit.

Have no clue what his Noble Phantasm would be, though.
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Old 2010-07-24, 17:17   Link #2312
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Have no clue what his Noble Phantasm would be, though.
Fuurinkazan. How it would be represented, not sure, but that would definitely be what it was.
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Old 2010-07-26, 14:41   Link #2313
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Just wondering if anyone else disagrees with this? I found just about everything in F/SN to be justified and explained well except for a couple of things (such as Archer at the end of UBW).

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Fate Stay Night loves to do this. Shirou cut in half? That's okay, he'll heal. You can only project a few weapons? Well, Shirou can make as many as he wants, because he can. Saber is about to run out of mana? No problem, there happens to be a method of restoring her mana that Rin just didn't mention until just now.
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Old 2010-07-26, 14:52   Link #2314
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Note that they're talking about the anime, not the game, and the anime doesn't explain stuff nearly as well (mostly due to trying to work two routes into one 26 episode course).
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Old 2010-07-26, 14:54   Link #2315
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Yeah, all of those things are pretty well explained and aren't ass-pulls because they are consistent, except for perhaps the mana restoration (in the anime), because there's no particlarly good reason why Rin didn't suggest it earlier (in the game, however, there is...).
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Old 2010-07-26, 14:54   Link #2316
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Except for that last one, yeah. Avalon and Shirou's Heroic Willpower are good enough for the first two, but that mana transfer thing just came up in my latest playthrough and I forgot how annoying it was. Rin was all like "You have no choice; either use your command spells to force Saber to eat human souls or she'll vanish." Then a few hours later it's "Oh, by the way you can also have sex with her. Sorry, my bad. Maybe I should've mentioned this before I proposed you murder some people."

I know she has her reasons, but... geez, Tohsaka.
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Old 2010-07-26, 14:59   Link #2317
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The anime said he had the scabbard, right? As for replenishing the mana, the anime handled it horrifically.
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Old 2010-07-26, 15:01   Link #2318
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Well, remember that Rin likes teasing Shirou. Most likely, she was just messing around with him, perhaps with a little secret test of character thrown in there (to see if he was as nice a guy as she thought, and whether she could trust him).

I find it highly doubtful that she was seriously suggesting that he tell Saber to eat souls. It's not something she would condone (or even accept, as her attitude to Shinji and Caster proves), and she knows full well that there's not a chance in hell that Shirou would actually do it (or that Saber would agree).
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Old 2010-07-26, 15:08   Link #2319
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Teasing is nice, withholding strategical vital information from an ally who is already at a disadvantage is downright stupid, and Rin is anything but stupid.

So yeah, that was a bit of an asspull purely for the sake of having a surprise moment.
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Old 2010-07-26, 15:12   Link #2320
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But didn't Rin mention there being another method at their house but then took it back saying Shirou would never do it or something?
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