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Old 2010-07-26, 15:22   Link #2321
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Teasing is nice, withholding strategical vital information from an ally who is already at a disadvantage is downright stupid, and Rin is anything but stupid.
Yeah, because Rin is really going to suggest to the guy she has a crush on and who is seeminly pretty chivalrous that he sleep with his servant to give her prana....

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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
But didn't Rin mention there being another method at their house but then took it back saying Shirou would never do it or something?
I think so, yeah.
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Old 2010-07-26, 16:02   Link #2322
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Yeah, because Rin is really going to suggest to the guy she has a crush on and who is seeminly pretty chivalrous that he sleep with his servant to give her prana....
Yes. Because Rin knows that this could, and will, save his life. Really, the only reason she didn't was for story purposes, to have the "I have to what!?" moment.

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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
But didn't Rin mention there being another method at their house but then took it back saying Shirou would never do it or something?
*checks episodes* Well, maybe I'm missing the moment she said it, but I can't seem to find it.
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Old 2010-07-26, 16:03   Link #2323
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Indeed, Rin remembered it and was about to mention that method but decided to withold it. Either cause Shirou wouldn't do that anyway or cause her/Sakura's feelings to him. Or both as it's the most reasonable situation. I drop in the third case: She wasn't sure about the Deus Sex Machina method working. You know regulary if your parter isn't a synchronizer before starting the "mana charge" a contract needs to be formed. In terms of contract I mean mutual feelings. It serves as the bridge and without it the whole process has a high chance of failure. To be short: Raping your Servant won't do. (despite how fanfics and doujins play around with it.)
But I can't doubt Rin does "stupid" things but she always have a believable reason.
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Old 2010-07-26, 16:11   Link #2324
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Yes. Because Rin knows that this could, and will, save his life.
Yeah, and she tells him when she knows it's necessary to save his life....

Also, remember that, at this point, she has her own servant and is still theoretically intending to fight Shirou at some point. It makes no difference to her if Saber ceases to exist, as long as she doesn't do it when either she or Shirou is in mortal peril.

Quote:
*checks episodes* Well, maybe I'm missing the moment she said it, but I can't seem to find it.
It's in the game. Likely it isn't in the anime because, in the absense of the sex scene, it doesn't actually make sense....

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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
To be short: Raping your Servant won't do. (despite how fanfics and doujins play around with it.)
Err, no. That's true if you want a long-term connection, but if you just want to dump prana into her body (which is what Shirou does in Fate (and, indeed, in HF)), then raping her would work just fine. Rin knew full well that Shirou could give Saber prana by having sex with her.
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Old 2010-07-26, 17:15   Link #2325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
But didn't Rin mention there being another method at their house but then took it back saying Shirou would never do it or something?
... Not quite sure what it says about Rin that she thought Shirou was more likely to go out and kill people for their souls than have sex with a girl.

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Yeah, and she tells him when she knows it's necessary to save his life....

Also, remember that, at this point, she has her own servant and is still theoretically intending to fight Shirou at some point. It makes no difference to her if Saber ceases to exist, as long as she doesn't do it when either she or Shirou is in mortal peril.
It still seems an uncharacteristically stupid decision to keep it from him for so long. By this point she knows Shirou is too noble to turn on her, and at this time in the story they're still living in a situation where her dinner could conceivably be interrupted by Berserker smashing the Emiya house into kindling. Having Saber at full combat readiness was still very much in her best interests, at least while the Doom Giant was still at large.

And if she's really that loathe to suggest her crush have sex with another girl... well, she could always have offered to 'help out' like she did later on anyway Really, she was making eyes at Saber since they met herself, it couldn't be that hard to break Shirou's will into a threesome, even without the threat of impending death. Breaking his will concerning justice and saving others, yes, that's basically impossible. Breaking his will concerning girls? He'll fold in five minutes.
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Old 2010-07-26, 20:06   Link #2326
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... Not quite sure what it says about Rin that she thought Shirou was more likely to go out and kill people for their souls than have sex with a girl.
I don't know, sometimes you have to question with what regard does Rin hold Shinji in outside of UBW.
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Old 2010-07-27, 02:31   Link #2327
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I was inspired to replay the game once again by people here, but I had to skip the FATE route... I don't know if its because I saw the anime first or something, but the FATE route just seems tainted and the most boring of the three.

UBW and HF for life.
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Old 2010-07-27, 07:14   Link #2328
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... Not quite sure what it says about Rin that she thought Shirou was more likely to go out and kill people for their souls than have sex with a girl.
That she knew full well that he wouldn't do it and wanted to wind him up? If Rin had seriously thought that Shirou would do that she would likely not have suggested it, because she wouldn't want innocent people to get harmed in that way.
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Old 2010-07-27, 08:00   Link #2329
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The thing is, there's really no good option here. If she was seriously suggesting that Shirou go and have Saber eat souls when another option was present, then she comes across as dangerously insane for suggesting he go out and do something so reprehensible (not to mention something that she would most likely kill him herself for doing) when it was totally unneeded. But if she was just bringing it up to get a rise out of him, then that still means that she was joking around with someone while one of his loved ones lay dying and Rin was, again, holding back a method of saving her, which also makes her come across as insane.
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Old 2010-07-27, 08:25   Link #2330
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Yeah, but even if there wasn't another option, both Rin and Shirou would rather fight with Saber nerfed than have her go out and murder innocent people.

I can't remember exactly now, but did Rin actually know how bad off Saber was at that point? She may not have realised how low on prana she was.
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Old 2010-07-27, 09:07   Link #2331
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I'm not sure myself, honestly. I think she was under the impression that Saber had enough energy left that she wouldn't fade if she stayed resting, but not enough to let her last through another fight. I'm not in a position to check at the moment, unfortunately.
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Old 2010-07-27, 13:00   Link #2332
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I was inspired to replay the game once again by people here, but I had to skip the FATE route... I don't know if its because I saw the anime first or something, but the FATE route just seems tainted and the most boring of the three.

UBW and HF for life.
Fate is not as exciting in the beginning, but I still enjoyed it. I think since it's the first route it has to be a little less heavy so the person doesn't get scared away. Plus there is more character introduction in Fate as well. They skip some of that in UBW & HF or just gloss over it since the time was spent in Fate.

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The thing is, there's really no good option here. If she was seriously suggesting that Shirou go and have Saber eat souls when another option was present, then she comes across as dangerously insane for suggesting he go out and do something so reprehensible (not to mention something that she would most likely kill him herself for doing) when it was totally unneeded. But if she was just bringing it up to get a rise out of him, then that still means that she was joking around with someone while one of his loved ones lay dying and Rin was, again, holding back a method of saving her, which also makes her come across as insane.
You know, Rin knew Shirou would say no to having Saber attack innocent people. She wasn't insane for suggesting it or anything.
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Old 2010-07-27, 18:07   Link #2333
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
You know, Rin knew Shirou would say no to having Saber attack innocent people. She wasn't insane for suggesting it or anything.
Not for suggesting it, no. What I find insane was that she was suggesting it like there were no other options, when she hadn't really thought on if there were any others yet. She briefly considers that other options might exist, then puts on her serious face and tells Shirou that no, his only chance to save Saber is to make her eat people with his command spells, and orders him to decide whether or not to do it before the two of them are next attacked. If she's going to give him until morning to think anyway, would it have killed her to say, "I'll spend tonight trying to think of those 'other options', so talk to me tomorrow."? Particularly since that's what she actually does, she just doesn't tell him about it.,

Though in a sense it's also not as bad as I thought: this does imply that while she knew about sex-as-mana-transfer, since it's apparently common knowledge among magi, she didn't consider it as an option until she thought on the situation a little. But she definitely still should have said 'let me try to think of a plan' before she said 'your only feasible option is something that you won't do and I'll kill you if you try to do'.


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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
I can't remember exactly now, but did Rin actually know how bad off Saber was at that point? She may not have realised how low on prana she was.
Got to check out the game text again. Rin's judgment on the situation after that battle is indeed that if Saber is allowed to rest, she should be able to retain enough energy to keep from disappearing on the spot, but only just. And even if she doesn't fade, she'll be far too weak to fight off any attackers and the other Masters won't ignore such a glaring vulnerability for very long, so she and Shirou probably wouldn't have long anyway.
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Old 2010-07-27, 18:49   Link #2334
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Not for suggesting it, no. What I find insane was that she was suggesting it like there were no other options, when she hadn't really thought on if there were any others yet. She briefly considers that other options might exist, then puts on her serious face and tells Shirou that no, his only chance to save Saber is to make her eat people with his command spells, and orders him to decide whether or not to do it before the two of them are next attacked. If she's going to give him until morning to think anyway, would it have killed her to say, "I'll spend tonight trying to think of those 'other options', so talk to me tomorrow."? Particularly since that's what she actually does, she just doesn't tell him about it.

Though in a sense it's also not as bad as I thought: this does imply that while she knew about sex-as-mana-transfer, since it's apparently common knowledge among magi, she didn't consider it as an option until she thought on the situation a little. But she definitely still should have said 'let me try to think of a plan' before she said 'your only feasible option is something that you won't do and I'll kill you if you try to do'.
Rin is very upfront with things that come naturally to her, magic and being a magus.

Quote:
Got to check out the game text again. Rin's judgment on the situation after that battle is indeed that if Saber is allowed to rest, she should be able to retain enough energy to keep from disappearing on the spot, but only just. And even if she doesn't fade, she'll be far too weak to fight off any attackers and the other Masters won't ignore such a glaring vulnerability for very long, so she and Shirou probably wouldn't have long anyway.
Yeah, she may have held out on mentioning the sex because of the situation. They had time to think it over and she may have thought it was best to let Shirou calm down a little. It was because of the situation with Illya & Bersker that she had to resort to more drastic measures.


And, I just got out of the shower and was thinking about how to make a proper anime out of this. I think I would do three two-cours for each route and cover as much as possible. I would also show when the day changes like in the VN and use the Tiger Dojos as episode previews, but change their tone as the route progresses and things become more serious. Also, I would have a narrator to narrate some parts. I'd like for Taiga to do it in a very serious tone, but that would depend on her voice actress and whether or not she can be serious enough to separate her goofy character and serious narrator voice. Oh, and I wouldn't cover up the sex. Make it brief on air (flahses of an image, and cut off scenes, like only Sakura upper body when she lifts her skirt in front of Shirou, as well as use the same BGM. I would also extend the scenes on BD/DVD to boost sales.
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Old 2010-07-27, 19:00   Link #2335
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And, I just got out of the shower and was thinking about how to make a proper anime out of this. I think I would do three two-cours for each route and cover as much as possible.
They didn't even do two full cours for the version they did, added in stuff from the other two routes, and it still felt exceedingly dragged out. And while the UBW movie may have cut things to fit it into the movie, it still covers the route and that would only be 4-5 episodes worth as it is.

I don't think more than one cour would be needed for any given route, since you cannot directly adapt from one medium to another and get the same results.
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Old 2010-07-27, 20:44   Link #2336
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
Yeah, she may have held out on mentioning the sex because of the situation. They had time to think it over and she may have thought it was best to let Shirou calm down a little. It was because of the situation with Illya & Bersker that she had to resort to more drastic measures.
Then she picked a really awful way to calm him down. Like, the worst way imaginable, short of telling him his only option was to have sex with Saber while murdering people.

Quote:
And, I just got out of the shower and was thinking about how to make a proper anime out of this. I think I would do three two-cours for each route and cover as much as possible. I would also show when the day changes like in the VN and use the Tiger Dojos as episode previews, but change their tone as the route progresses and things become more serious. Also, I would have a narrator to narrate some parts. I'd like for Taiga to do it in a very serious tone, but that would depend on her voice actress and whether or not she can be serious enough to separate her goofy character and serious narrator voice. Oh, and I wouldn't cover up the sex. Make it brief on air (flahses of an image, and cut off scenes, like only Sakura upper body when she lifts her skirt in front of Shirou, as well as use the same BGM. I would also extend the scenes on BD/DVD to boost sales.
While having the Tiger Dojo as the next-episode preview is clever, I don't know if I can get behind the idea of making Fuji-nee act serious, just on general principle. I mean, the Tiger Dojo is the light in the tunnel. Even when things are at their darkest, you know that Ilya and Taiga will always be there to add a little fun in right after you hit one of the nasty bits. Even the most serious ones aren't exactly serious.
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Old 2010-07-27, 21:10   Link #2337
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They didn't even do two full cours for the version they did, added in stuff from the other two routes, and it still felt exceedingly dragged out. And while the UBW movie may have cut things to fit it into the movie, it still covers the route and that would only be 4-5 episodes worth as it is.

I don't think more than one cour would be needed for any given route, since you cannot directly adapt from one medium to another and get the same results.
I didn't finish the whole anime, but one cour is definitely not enough. It also depends on how you do it. I'd want to use narration to try and convey the detail of the VN. I know each form of media is different and everything, but there are ways around it.

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Then she picked a really awful way to calm him down. Like, the worst way imaginable, short of telling him his only option was to have sex with Saber while murdering people.
Maybe calm down wasn't the right phrase. Perhaps come to terms?

Quote:
While having the Tiger Dojo as the next-episode preview is clever, I don't know if I can get behind the idea of making Fuji-nee act serious, just on general principle. I mean, the Tiger Dojo is the light in the tunnel. Even when things are at their darkest, you know that Ilya and Taiga will always be there to add a little fun in right after you hit one of the nasty bits. Even the most serious ones aren't exactly serious.
Well, I'd want a character who isn't in the story the whole time to narrate. Durarara!! had different characters narrate episodes, but the characters themselves weren't speaking from their experience, they were describing things they would never know. Maybe it saved on expenses by having them do the narration.

In the VN, when there was no interlude, Shirou was doing the narrating right? Oh, and I think I'd show the interlude title thing too.
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Old 2010-07-27, 21:21   Link #2338
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I didn't finish the whole anime, but one cour is definitely not enough. It also depends on how you do it. I'd want to use narration to try and convey the detail of the VN. I know each form of media is different and everything, but there are ways around it.
Saber wasn't even summoned until right before the ED of episode 2. They fluffed the hell out of the anime. Remove the Archer vs Berserker fight (while awesome, wouldn't be necessary if UBW got its own cour), the second half of ep5 and first half of ep6 (UBW piece), and the majority of episode 17-19 (the "Caster Arc") and you've just removed 5 episodes without affecting Fate. That isn't even counting the fluff, like random shots of Caster early on when Ilya appeared.
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Old 2010-07-27, 22:00   Link #2339
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OK, so, what exactly is a "cour"? I've never heard that term before.

In any case, remember that Fate is the shortest route by some way, especially in terms of content. To do HF and UBW properly you'd need a couple of extra episodes beyond those you needed for Fate.

Also, remember that in the game Saber wasn't summoned until the third day out out of 14/15 (and remember that you had the epilogue to come before all that), so having her summoned in the second episode out of 24 is not actually unreasonable if you're doing an adaptation of the VN.
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Old 2010-07-27, 23:19   Link #2340
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OK, so, what exactly is a "cour"? I've never heard that term before.
It's how they allot timeslots in Japan. On average, it's 13 weeks, or a shortened one at 12 weeks (hence why most anime series counts are divisible by one of those numbers).

And having Saber show up when she did would've been fine if it had followed the novels as they were, but they did like a 2 minute cap of Rin's prologue, and then just trudged through Shirou's activities for a few days.
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