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Old 2010-08-27, 10:22   Link #2801
DragoZERO
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The biggest hole, to me, is how the hell is Shirou able to do all that stuff? Is he just a freak of nature or is it something else.
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Old 2010-08-27, 10:23   Link #2802
mAc Chaos
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It's not really a plot hole. For any story you need some baseline foundations that just happened because they did. He's gifted with some innate power, that's all there is to it. It's not like the existence of the "world" as a conscience entity is explained either, it's just a fact of life in that universe.
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Old 2010-08-27, 11:08   Link #2803
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Originally Posted by Moczo View Post
And the worst part is... very often, that's the real excuse. The fact that the wizard is Merlin or Medea or someone famous like that doesn't make it better!
Well, it kind of does. It's still not "okay", but better than some random, unseen wizard in the sky.
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Old 2010-08-27, 11:39   Link #2804
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Some things are completely baseless. For example, Nasu has a very limited understanding of one's psyche and how unbelievably difficult it is to repair.

Those who know anything about psychology would know that Sakura simply could not exist in the way she did if she was truly "scarred" by what happened to her. With that level of trauma, i don't care how "strong willed" you are, you're going to need years of therapy and drugs in order to function somewhat properly in society. Contrary to the belief of many, the human mind is a VERY fragile thing, and one of two things would happen in Sakura's situation. 1, she goes insane; cut and dry, that's what would happen. 2, in order to preserve itself, her mind would fracture itself, creating one, if not more, separate personalities.
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Old 2010-08-27, 13:08   Link #2805
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
That's not why it's called Heaven's Feel.
Spoiler for Meaning of 'Heaven's Feel':
Actually, "Heaven's Feel" is the technical name of the Grail War itself, and of the third magic. Since HF is the route which covers the true purpose of the war and goes into detail about the past, it gets that name. Similarly, UBW covers Shirou's true abilities and his magic, which it where it's name comes from. And Fate is called "Fate" because, err....

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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Well, it kind of does. It's still not "okay", but better than some random, unseen wizard in the sky.
Err, when you're talking about a world based around magic, I think "a wizard did it" is a perfectly reasonable concept....

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Originally Posted by Flinch View Post
Some things are completely baseless. For example, Nasu has a very limited understanding of one's psyche and how unbelievably difficult it is to repair.

Those who know anything about psychology would know that Sakura simply could not exist in the way she did if she was truly "scarred" by what happened to her. With that level of trauma, i don't care how "strong willed" you are, you're going to need years of therapy and drugs in order to function somewhat properly in society. Contrary to the belief of many, the human mind is a VERY fragile thing, and one of two things would happen in Sakura's situation. 1, she goes insane; cut and dry, that's what would happen. 2, in order to preserve itself, her mind would fracture itself, creating one, if not more, separate personalities.
Whilst this is arguably true, I don't think it's as bad as you seem to think it is. For a start, it's shown quite clearly that Sakura just basically shut herself off entirely from the world and retreated into herself, with only Shirou being able to draw her out of that. Furthermore, there are incidences of people being put through similar things and coming out OK (albeit after a certain amount of therapy), and the fact that Sakura was able to live a normal(ish) life alongside her abuse means that she is likely to be somewhat better adjusted.

There are people who have been through horrible stuff (POWs, torture victims etc.) who, with no therapy have come out fine (or, at least, capable of functioning in normal society). it may well be rare, but it's certainly not unknown.
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Old 2010-08-27, 13:14   Link #2806
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Err, when you're talking about a world based around magic, I think "a wizard did it" is a perfectly reasonable concept....
Only if a wizard actually did it.
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Old 2010-08-27, 13:16   Link #2807
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
There are people who have been through horrible stuff (POWs, torture victims etc.) who, with no therapy have come out fine (or, at least, capable of functioning in normal society). it may well be rare, but it's certainly not unknown.
FINE? No one EVER comes out of a POW camp FINE, they can come out ALIVE, but they are so mentally disturbed from the experience, its somewhat questionable to refer to them as the same person.
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Old 2010-08-27, 13:19   Link #2808
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Lame ass metaphor coming through:

Break a glass cup in a field of grass. See how long it takes you, the therapist, to find all the bits and pieces and fix the problem. No, you will never find all the pieces and you will have to accept that. All you can do is find as most as possible and do the person the favor to not waste time.

Of course, Sakura didn't need a therapist. She had one, his name was Shinji. And he was THE RAPIST....

*shot for lame pun*
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Old 2010-08-27, 13:21   Link #2809
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pretty witty, but good point on the metaphor
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Old 2010-08-27, 14:00   Link #2810
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Originally Posted by Flinch View Post
FINE? No one EVER comes out of a POW camp FINE, they can come out ALIVE, but they are so mentally disturbed from the experience, its somewhat questionable to refer to them as the same person.
And this most definitely applies to Sakura. As I've said before, Sakura is naturally rather a lot like Rin, but her treatment by Zouken has left her totally lacking in confidence and self-esteem and very submissive. She's not the same person as she would have been if she were not put in his 'care'.

Having said that, she was there for so long that she doesn't really know any other kind of life, so the damage is more fundamental, rather than something a therapist could help with. An adult who has lived a perfectly normal life who was suddenly thrown into a hell like that would just break, but a young child like Sakura adapts. If there was any kind of 'brokenness' in her, it would likely be her inability to adapt to not being abused and controlled in that way, so there's a good chance she'd become somewhat masochistic. However, Shirou would help her, would give her what she wants and would allow her to adapt to a more normal life. And, like I said, the fact that she has been able to live a 'normal' life alongside her horribly abusive one for a couple of years will likely assist her in adapting.

She'd likely have issues with certain scenarios (going into the Matou basement, for instance, and possibly worm-like things), and she'd probably have nightmares, but none of that prevents her from having a life that is, overall, good.
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Old 2010-08-27, 14:07   Link #2811
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She has textbook PTSD, she broke a long time ago
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Old 2010-08-27, 14:44   Link #2812
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She has textbook PTSD, she broke a long time ago
In what manner?

Doesn't the "P" in PTSD imply that the trauma has stopped?
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Old 2010-08-27, 16:07   Link #2813
DragoZERO
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Guys, seriously, let's not talk about this anymore. When all is said and done, this is a fiction story so how about we let bygones be bygones and call it a day.
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Old 2010-08-27, 16:47   Link #2814
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Only if a wizard actually did it.
In terms of story cosmology I think Anno covered those sorts of points better in Evangelion wrt the metaphysical nature of humans and angels, whereas Nasu's real strength is in character creation and story mood/ambiance, although in terms of psychological presentation both Anno and Tomino do that with a much better attention of detail than Nasu to be honest.
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Old 2010-08-27, 18:30   Link #2815
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Originally Posted by Flinch View Post
2, in order to preserve itself, her mind would fracture itself, creating one, if not more, separate personalities.
....

To be honest, I think playing through Heaven's Feel when Sakura has a fractured mind and separate personalities would have been awesome. Especially if one of those personalities was Dark Sakura. Because she's epic.
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Old 2010-08-27, 18:36   Link #2816
GDB
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Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
To be honest, I think playing through Heaven's Feel when Sakura has a fractured mind and separate personalities would have been awesome. Especially if one of those personalities was Dark Sakura. Because she's epic.
Especially if they played it up to where you were given the impression that she might've had other friends/Kotomine/Rider/etc around that she was talking to (in interludes, perhaps), and when she finally snaps you find out that she was just talking to herself/the other personalities the entire time.


*edit*
Well that's interesting. Remember when we were talking about Realta Nua, and I said I liked the UBW background for the menu screen? Of course that'd be too nice to keep, so after playing through "Last Episode", it switched to a Last Episode menu screen. RAWR.

Last edited by GDB; 2010-08-27 at 19:04.
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Old 2010-08-27, 22:20   Link #2817
DragoZERO
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Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
....

To be honest, I think playing through Heaven's Feel when Sakura has a fractured mind and separate personalities would have been awesome. Especially if one of those personalities was Dark Sakura. Because she's epic.
It definitely would have been cool, but seeing the conflict in her was great.

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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
*edit*
Well that's interesting. Remember when we were talking about Realta Nua, and I said I liked the UBW background for the menu screen? Of course that'd be too nice to keep, so after playing through "Last Episode", it switched to a Last Episode menu screen. RAWR.
Yeah...that's why we wished it was a random screen.
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Old 2010-08-27, 22:34   Link #2818
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It definitely would have been cool, but seeing the conflict in her was great.
I have to admit for me, there was no real conflict about it. It was pretty obvious from the beginning that Sakura was going to give in to the madness. Actually seeing her struggle with the darkness was interesting, though. And when she gives in finally... holy crap, she is awesome. How bad of me is it that I wished Sakura was more like Dark Sakura in terms of personality?
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Old 2010-08-27, 22:36   Link #2819
DragoZERO
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I have to admit for me, there was no real conflict about it. It was pretty obvious from the beginning that Sakura was going to give in to the madness. Actually seeing her struggle with the darkness was interesting, though. And when she gives in finally... holy crap, she is awesome. How bad of me is it that I wished Sakura was more like Dark Sakura in terms of personality?
I don't think she gave in. If she truly gave in, then everyone would have been dead, including Shirou.
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Old 2010-08-27, 22:39   Link #2820
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I don't think she gave in. If she truly gave in, then everyone would have been dead, including Shirou.
True enough, I'll admit that. I guess for me I just never really felt any tension about it. It was pretty obvious from the beginning that sooner or later she was going to give in, even if incompletely. But yeah, you make a good point.
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