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Old 2010-09-01, 11:47   Link #2881
Moczo
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post

Spoiler for HF:


Spoiler for HF:

Last edited by Moczo; 2010-09-01 at 11:58.
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Old 2010-09-01, 12:16   Link #2882
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Well, yeah, that too....I think I worked out pretty damn quick that it was not going to work that way in HF.
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Spoiler for HF:
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Old 2010-09-01, 12:26   Link #2883
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by Moczo View Post
Spoiler for HF:
I... see....

Well, it's not like the bad end doesn't tell you quite explicitly what you did wrong, and
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Spoiler for HF:
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Old 2010-09-01, 12:27   Link #2884
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Originally Posted by Moczo View Post
Spoiler for UBW again:
I got that one too. Pretty funny.

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Originally Posted by Kanon View Post
The MoS ending is still my favourite "bad" ending. I didn't get it on my playthrough though, as I always tried to do my best to save Sakura.
What does MoS stand for? I'm drawing a blank.

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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Are you sure that was UBW? I thought you didn't really interact with her all that much in that route.
It might have been Fate then. I don't remember honestly. It's the one where she's at Shirou's house waiting for him.
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Old 2010-09-01, 12:57   Link #2885
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
What does MoS stand for? I'm drawing a blank.
Mind of Steel.
Spoiler for HF:


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It might have been Fate then. I don't remember honestly. It's the one where she's at Shirou's house waiting for him.
Spoiler for Ilya:
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Old 2010-09-01, 13:14   Link #2886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
I... see....

Well, it's not like the bad end doesn't tell you quite explicitly what you did wrong, and
Spoiler for HF:
Spoiler for HF:
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Old 2010-09-01, 13:30   Link #2887
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Originally Posted by Moczo View Post
Spoiler for HF:
Well, yeah, obviously.
Spoiler for HF:

Last edited by Cherry_Lover; 2010-09-01 at 17:53.
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Old 2010-09-01, 17:37   Link #2888
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Old 2010-09-01, 18:09   Link #2889
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Mind of Steel.
Spoiler for HF:
Ah, okay that's in the church and all.

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Spoiler for Ilya:
I remember now.
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Old 2010-09-01, 18:14   Link #2890
Moczo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Well, yeah, obviously.
Spoiler for HF:
Spoiler for HF:
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Old 2010-09-01, 18:23   Link #2891
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Originally Posted by Moczo View Post
Spoiler for HF:
Well, to be fair, a few of the choices you cane make while playing through HF really give the feeling of making it more of a Rin route, or a Saber route, or a Rider, or an Ilya route. Sometimes it's hard to keep in mind that you're supposed to keep the romantic developments focused on Sakura.
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Old 2010-09-01, 18:38   Link #2892
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Old 2010-09-01, 21:26   Link #2893
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Spoiler for HF:
That... actually makes a lot of sense. I'm an unabashed Taiga fan, so I can easily see myself picking out options that sound like they would give her more screentime, even though they weren't the most sensible choice... and of course Ilya too, God I probably missed all of those points



In unrelated news, finally started up UBW with the RN patch! The first new image actually came surprisingly early, and it was a decent enough starting point:

Spoiler for UBW Spoilers, both RN and otherwise:
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Old 2010-09-01, 21:54   Link #2894
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Also, as a human, we naturally care about some more than others. For Shirou not to fall apart, he has to care about people, and it's impossible to care about someone if you'd let them die as soon as they become a potential danger to others. Plus, who gave Shirou the right to decide to kill someone because they're a potential danger?
In some situations it may be very necessary to do such distasteful things, zombie fiction alone has plenty of examples, like Highschool of the Dead or Shaun of the Dead where friends who've been bitten ask to be killed before they become a threat to those around them, or the plot of 28 Weeks Later, taking into account different character relationships. It's definitely not a clear-cut issue by any means.
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Old 2010-09-02, 07:19   Link #2895
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Originally Posted by aldw View Post
In some situations it may be very necessary to do such distasteful things, zombie fiction alone has plenty of examples, like Highschool of the Dead or Shaun of the Dead where friends who've been bitten ask to be killed before they become a threat to those around them, or the plot of 28 Weeks Later, taking into account different character relationships. It's definitely not a clear-cut issue by any means.
Yes, I can accept that that happens, but it does not apply to Sakura's situation. When someone is zombified, there is no way to save them. With Sakura, they had no reason to believe that she wasn't saveable, at least the first time around, and the second time Shirou chose not to kill her, she actually did not kill anyone else (excluding bad guys) from then on.
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Old 2010-09-02, 07:53   Link #2896
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aldw View Post
In some situations it may be very necessary to do such distasteful things, zombie fiction alone has plenty of examples, like Highschool of the Dead or Shaun of the Dead where friends who've been bitten ask to be killed before they become a threat to those around them, or the plot of 28 Weeks Later, taking into account different character relationships. It's definitely not a clear-cut issue by any means.
Well... to be fair, in this case we only know that killing Sakura would have been the most pragmatic decision because we're looking at the route in hindsight. As I recall, when the 'Mind of Steel' option comes up, the only things they know for sure are that Sakura could be used as a puppet by Zouken at any time, and that the worms that allow this cannot be removed without killing her. Therefore the main danger she poses is to Shirou and Rin themselves, and I can easily see them choosing to risk their own lives for the hope of saving their respective love interest/sister.

Now, if Rin had been aware that Sakura was the Shadow at that point in the story, then that's when things get morally grey. Shadow!Sakura's a confirmed danger to everyone in Fuyuki; unintentionally, yes, but she's still responsible for a great deal of death over the course of the story. When that information comes to light, that is when we reach the point when killing Sakura starts to become the pragmatic, 'kill one to save one-hundred' option. But at the MoS junction, Rin didn't know that and so letting Sakura live to try to save her really does make more sense.
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Old 2010-09-02, 08:59   Link #2897
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Well... to be fair, in this case we only know that killing Sakura would have been the most pragmatic decision because we're looking at the route in hindsight. As I recall, when the 'Mind of Steel' option comes up, the only things they know for sure are that Sakura could be used as a puppet by Zouken at any time, and that the worms that allow this cannot be removed without killing her. Therefore the main danger she poses is to Shirou and Rin themselves, and I can easily see them choosing to risk their own lives for the hope of saving their respective love interest/sister.
Yeah, exactly. In hindsight, you can quite easily argue that killing Sakura would have been the 'right' thing to do because we know that Sakura was the shadow and would, ultimately, end up killing people (although I'm not remotely convinced that MoS would have had a better ending (for the world as a whole) than HF did, because I simply can't see how Shirou can save everyone without a servant and with Rin possessing a more powerful, more awesome version of him who has every reason to want to kick his ass), but at the time they had no real reason to believe that, if she did go insane, she wouldn't be stoppable (hell, Shirou even resolves to make sure that Sakura dies with him if she attacks him).

Quote:
Now, if Rin had been aware that Sakura was the Shadow at that point in the story, then that's when things get morally grey. Shadow!Sakura's a confirmed danger to everyone in Fuyuki; unintentionally, yes, but she's still responsible for a great deal of death over the course of the story. When that information comes to light, that is when we reach the point when killing Sakura starts to become the pragmatic, 'kill one to save one-hundred' option. But at the MoS junction, Rin didn't know that and so letting Sakura live to try to save her really does make more sense.
Well, if they'd known that Sakura was the shadow, I don't think there would have been much moral greyness at all, actually. Rin would have killed Sakura without a second thought, and Shirou would have been either unwilling or unable to stop her. And, for that matter, if Sakura had known that, she would have either killed herself or (more likely) got Zouken/someone else to do it a lot sooner, because she wasn't willing to endanger Shirou that way and she wouldn't want to harm innocent people.

They'd have been forced to deal with the situation immediately, one way or another. Either they'd kill Sakura, or she would agree to confront Zouken on the off-chance that he knew some way to stop the shadow that was non-fatal to her (and that he was willing to implement). None of them, including her, would be willing to accept the idea of her being responsible for a monster that would harm others. Admittedly, they don't know that the shadow is a danger to innocents at that point, but nonetheless Sakura would not accept its existence as long as it endangered Shirou.
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Old 2010-09-02, 11:37   Link #2898
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From my perspective during my first playthrough, even though I was mostly indifferent to Sakura, I still felt intuitively that Sakura could be saved during the church scene (especially since sociopaths like Kotomine tend to spin things for their own ends anyway), and I know that if someone like Shiki or Ciel (or Ryougi and Tohko particularly) had been around that they would be able to provide a different perspective to approach the situation (which is why I like stories that take such approaches into consideration, e.g. 'A Thin Veneer'). Many of the great solutions in history do often come from the unexpected.
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Old 2010-09-02, 13:57   Link #2899
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From my perspective during my first playthrough, even though I was mostly indifferent to Sakura, I still felt intuitively that Sakura could be saved during the church scene (especially since sociopaths like Kotomine tend to spin things for their own ends anyway)
Well, yeah, exactly. And, similarly, if you think purely logically choosing to kill Sakura the second time around was quite obviously the wrong decision too, because Zouken simply would not have suggested it if it didn't fit in with his plans.

I mean, Nasu quite obviously intentionally wrote it so that people wouldn't overly blame Shirou for his decisions (or, indeed, blame Sakura), because the story relies on you sympathising with him and with her, and it wouldn't work if Shirou had any real reason to be blamed for what happened.

Incidentally, the one person who undoubtedly is guilty (other than the villains) is Ilya. She knew exactly who the shadow was from well before even MoS, and yet deliberately avoided mentioning it because she knew it would destroy Shirou and turn him into Kiritsugu. But, she's always shown to be somewhat self-centred (albeit sympathetically, due to her past), so that fits pretty well with her character.
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Old 2010-09-02, 20:38   Link #2900
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Incidentally, the one person who undoubtedly is guilty (other than the villains) is Ilya. She knew exactly who the shadow was from well before even MoS, and yet deliberately avoided mentioning it because she knew it would destroy Shirou and turn him into Kiritsugu. But, she's always shown to be somewhat self-centred (albeit sympathetically, due to her past), so that fits pretty well with her character.
So doing something to protect another, even if for your own reasons, makes you self-centered? If so, doesn't that make pretty much everyone except Taiga self-centered?

Though to the prior discussion, yeah any decision to kill the main character of the arc is obviously the wrong choice. That much should be obvious to anyone.
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