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Old 2010-09-11, 12:13   Link #2961
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
Rin is a very intelligent girl, but really, she just did not show it when it concerned Sakura. Her mind went to "one of my blood has become a heretic, therefore, to protect our name and her sanctity if it seems she cannot be saved, she must die" really quickly. She never was willing to go out on a limb unless Shirou was willing to. She gave up hope. This was what was central to her development in HF, where she is shown to have very little faith and was cripplingly clumsy when it came to Sakura. If it was the normal Rin I would think she would take one of the worms that got extracted and study it, but she flipped out during the scene in the church. Heck most of the time when she talks to Shirou about Sakura, I look at it more about her convincing herself then giving him advice, saying many things she would normally never say, and hurting Sakura even if she said she understood what Rin meant by it. It was an awkward situation that was exacerbated by even weirder circumstances.
Yeah, exactly. Rin simply decided "I can't save Sakura" and then elected not to bother thinking about it any further, even though her heart was keeping her from actually doing it. But, really, her general attitude towards Sakura is like that. She seems to take the approach that, if she doesn't know there is a problem, she doesn't have to deal with it. I mean, she knows full well that Sakura isn't happy, she knows that Shinji is hitting her and she can see that Sakura's personality, hair and eye colour has changed massively. If she bothered to actually think about it for a second, she would see that something was horribly wrong, and yet she doesn't. She just pretends that Sakura is happy because it makes her feel good about herself.

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It is important for one who champions such a cause to keep caring about people, or they become machines that look at others as mere pieces on the chessboard.
Which is the fundamental problem with Kiritsugu's ideal. You can't care equally about every person in the world, the human mind is simply not capable of doing it, and so in attempting to treat everyone equally he ends up caring about no-one.

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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Kaleido Stick + Sakura?
One option would be "Sakura Boss". A Matou Sakura(or Tohsaka?) that orders everyone around and does not let anyone to control her. You know in some really different alternate universe, everything is possible.
That would be real funny to see. Imagine an extreme Luvia with Sakura's appearance.
Actually, from what I can tell of HA, Sakura is somewhat like that there anyway. Sakura doesn't let anyone control her, Zouken keeps her under his control by force. As soon as he loses the ability to do so (like in HA) she takes no notice of him.
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Old 2010-09-11, 12:21   Link #2962
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It is important for one who champions such a cause to keep caring about people, or they become machines that look at others as mere pieces on the chessboard.
Which is the fundamental problem with Kiritsugu's ideal. You can't care equally about every person in the world, the human mind is simply not capable of doing it, and so in attempting to treat everyone equally he ends up caring about no-one.
One of my original story ideas covered this issue by coincidence, thing is that either human consciousness/organization changes to deal with it or a major systemic transformation of sorts (e.g., post-singularity, Third Impact etc.,) occurs for something like that to happen. But it would take too long to get into hard details so that'll be for another time and thread.
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Old 2010-09-11, 15:20   Link #2963
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Yeah, exactly. Rin simply decided "I can't save Sakura" and then elected not to bother thinking about it any further, even though her heart was keeping her from actually doing it. But, really, her general attitude towards Sakura is like that. She seems to take the approach that, if she doesn't know there is a problem, she doesn't have to deal with it. I mean, she knows full well that Sakura isn't happy, she knows that Shinji is hitting her and she can see that Sakura's personality, hair and eye colour has changed massively. If she bothered to actually think about it for a second, she would see that something was horribly wrong, and yet she doesn't. She just pretends that Sakura is happy because it makes her feel good about herself.
Actually, aside from when Rin spoke to Shinji in one of the earlier routes (I can't remember, was it Fate or UBW?) she didn't seem to be aware of the fact that Shinji's abuse of Sakura runs deeper when she isn't around. And besides, even if she was aware of it, what was she supposed to do? Her father made a promise that the Matou and Tohsaka families wouldn't have anything to do with each other. Rin's not the type to go against that kind of promise, especially because it's her father. Sure, you could say "He was dead, she could have done it anyway", but Rin isn't the kind of person to do that unless she had a damned good reason for it, and as far as we were shown in the game she had no reason to really suspect just how bad off Sakura was until the Holy Grail War began and Zouken made his move.

Really, though, the whole conflict of "Rin killing Sakura" exists solely for the purpose of showing Rin's inner contradiction. She tries to be a good, strong magus by adopting a cold face and doing what duty demands of her regardless of her own feelings, but she can't because deep down she's just way too nice and loves Sakura too much. And really, barring all of the Bad Ends, Rin just really sucks at actually killing Sakura when she has the chance in-game.

Spoiler for MoS:
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Old 2010-09-11, 15:58   Link #2964
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Actually, aside from when Rin spoke to Shinji in one of the earlier routes (I can't remember, was it Fate or UBW?) she didn't seem to be aware of the fact that Shinji's abuse of Sakura runs deeper when she isn't around.
She's clearly not aware of it, no. But, given how smart she is, she should be. There is enough evidence there for her to work it out, especially given her general level of knowledge of magecraft and how magi think. So, the only obvious conclusion is that she didn't try to find out. She watched Sakura from a distance and pretended to herself that everything was just fine, even though she knew that Sakura was only ever happy around Shirou (she says as much in HF), which really should have set massive alarm bells ringing in her mind (particularly in UBW...).

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And besides, even if she was aware of it, what was she supposed to do? Her father made a promise that the Matou and Tohsaka families wouldn't have anything to do with each other. Rin's not the type to go against that kind of promise, especially because it's her father. Sure, you could say "He was dead, she could have done it anyway", but Rin isn't the kind of person to do that unless she had a damned good reason for it, and as far as we were shown in the game she had no reason to really suspect just how bad off Sakura was until the Holy Grail War began and Zouken made his move.
Which is the part of her personality that really pisses me off, and like the cause of her not investigating it too deeply. If she attempts to look under the surface, she might come to the conclusion that she doesn't have a choice but to act, even if there is nothing she can do. She didn't look too deeply at Sakura's situation or think too hard about it because she was frightened about what she might find.

Quote:
Really, though, the whole conflict of "Rin killing Sakura" exists solely for the purpose of showing Rin's inner contradiction. She tries to be a good, strong magus by adopting a cold face and doing what duty demands of her regardless of her own feelings, but she can't because deep down she's just way too nice and loves Sakura too much. And really, barring all of the Bad Ends, Rin just really sucks at actually killing Sakura when she has the chance in-game.
Which is pretty much our point. Her brain is telling her that she must do her duty, but her heart won't let her. As a result, she never actually goes through with killing Sakura, but at the same time every time she actually tries to think about the situation and look for a way out all she gets is plans for how to kill Sakura with the minimum of fuss. Thus, she doesn't do what she should have done, and start researching Zouken and his magecraft in order to find a way to actually help Sakura.

Spoiler for MoS:

Last edited by Cherry_Lover; 2010-09-11 at 16:29.
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Old 2010-09-11, 16:08   Link #2965
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
She's clearly not aware of it, no. But, given how smart she is, she should be. There is enough evidence there for her to work it out, especially given her general level of knowledge of magecraft and how magi think. So, the only obvious conclusion is that she didn't try to find out. She watched Sakura from a distance and pretended to herself that everything was just fine, even though she knew that Sakura was only ever happy around Shirou (she says as much in HF), which really should have set massive alarm bells ringing in her mind (particularly in UBW...).
Well, here we go into a debate neither of us will win because I adore Rin. But, well, I wanted to respond to this one point, at least, before I let this go, because neither of us is really going to win this.

Yes, Rin should be aware of Sakura's condition. I admit that she has no reason to not be aware of it, especially considering Sakura's massive physical change compared to when they were children. If anything, I'd say she used a censor (kind of like how the students in UBW pretend to not see Rin going nuts on Shirou) so she wouldn't think about it, because if she did think about it and figured it out, there was still nothing she could do. She still had the promise to abide by, and she had no reason (other than personal) to go after Zouken, which wouldn't have gone over well with her "moderator of Fuyuki" duties since she's only supposed to do something when the whole city is in danger, as it was in HF.

But again, it comes down to personal opinion. I think she couldn't have done anything about it, you don't, so we're going to go in circles here. I toss my hat into the ring, good evening to you.
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Old 2010-09-11, 16:28   Link #2966
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Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
Yes, Rin should be aware of Sakura's condition. I admit that she has no reason to not be aware of it, especially considering Sakura's massive physical change compared to when they were children. If anything, I'd say she used a censor (kind of like how the students in UBW pretend to not see Rin going nuts on Shirou) so she wouldn't think about it
I can agree with this bit, yeah. She clearly 'blocked' it out, because she didn't want to know, because she would then feel guilty for not helping her sister.

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because if she did think about it and figured it out, there was still nothing she could do. She still had the promise to abide by, and she had no reason (other than personal) to go after Zouken, which wouldn't have gone over well with her "moderator of Fuyuki" duties since she's only supposed to do something when the whole city is in danger, as it was in HF.
Sorry, but "I have promised not to get involved with the Matou family" is not an excuse for leaving her little sister to be tortured and, likely, eventually murdered by her adoptive grandfather. Even she admits as much, in HF. As for the Association, they likely couldn't give a shit, provided she doesn't break any of their rules in doing so.

It's quite possible that she did think this way, because she was so wedded to her duty that she may well consider herself to be "not allowed" to save Sakura, but it is in no way an excuse for not doing so. She may well have felt that her duty didn't allow her to save Sakura, but to claim that she couldn't save Sakura is complete bullshit. Although, admittedly, it may well have been somewhat difficult for her to overcome Zouken (which is another argument entirely).

So, whilst I can accept that she may have thought that she couldn't save Sakura, and that she likely subconsciously overlooked what she should have been able to work out Sakura's true situation, she did it because she didn't want to have to make the choice between her duty as a magus and her love of her sister. But that was her decision, and she made it for her benefit. She did not have to follow her father's instructions, she chose to follow them, so to claim that she "couldn't" save Sakura (for that reason, anyway) is ridiculous. Wouldn't, perhaps, but not "couldn't". She just didn't want to have to live with the guilt of knowing that she had put her 'duty' and her own well-being above the well-being of her sister, so she blocked out anything that might tell her that Sakura was not OK, in order that she could live in blissful ignorance.
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Old 2010-09-13, 02:22   Link #2967
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And that is what separates people; those who will break under pressure and those who will become diamonds. By holding fast to your duties, no matter how hard it is on you physically or emotionally, you show higher resolve and strength than acting on your emotions.

The vast majority of questions people ask, they already know the answer to, which is why many simply don't ask because they don't want it confirmed. The same would go with that situation. If Sakura changed because of living with the Makiri family, logic states that it has something to do with her living there. If she appears to be in a great deal of emotional pain, its still probably from where she is. Now, knowing this, do you think Rin would rather confirm this first hand and be traumatized, or not ask questions out of fear and self-hatred for not being able to change it?
Mind you, I have absolutely no appreciation for family values/concepts do to personal experiences, so my views are going to be heavily biased on that reason.
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Old 2010-09-13, 12:03   Link #2968
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Mind you, I have absolutely no appreciation for family values/concepts do to personal experiences, so my views are going to be heavily biased on that reason.
Ah, I see. Your past comments do reflect that mindset so I can better understand where your head is at when you respond to some earlier comments. Thank you for being honest though. Though there is amusing irony when we turn the situation to Ilya of course, but I won't press the issue.

EDIT: Really now...*sigh*
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Old 2010-09-13, 19:01   Link #2969
Cherry_Lover
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And that is what separates people; those who will break under pressure and those who will become diamonds.
Perhaps, but Rin is defintely not the second. In any case, whether breaking under pressure is a good or bad thing depends on the kind of pressure. Being rigidly inflexible when someone puts a good argument to you is no better than buckling at the slightest hint of opposition.

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By holding fast to your duties, no matter how hard it is on you physically or emotionally, you show higher resolve and strength than acting on your emotions.
Not when your "duty" is stupid and involves putting yourself first to achieve some pointless goal. Whilst I could accept an argument for killing Sakura in MoS, there is no good argument for Rin not trying to find out the truth about Sakura and assist her. Being a genuinely kind and good person comes way above some stupid duty to follow in your father's footsteps or stick to some horribly out of date non-interference pact that you've already made a total mockery of by giving your daugther to the other side (which Rin admits in HF).

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The vast majority of questions people ask, they already know the answer to, which is why many simply don't ask because they don't want it confirmed. The same would go with that situation. If Sakura changed because of living with the Makiri family, logic states that it has something to do with her living there. If she appears to be in a great deal of emotional pain, its still probably from where she is.
Yes, but by not asking she's condemned an innocent girl (and her sister, at that) to a slow and agonising death.

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Now, knowing this, do you think Rin would rather confirm this first hand and be traumatized, or not ask questions out of fear and self-hatred for not being able to change it?
Of course. But, this is a weakness in Rin, not a strength. Whilst it's understandable that she acts that way, it is not good that she does. Her refusal to ask has consequences for Sakura, and it's unfair for her to put her own fear of discovering the truth above her sister's well-being.

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Mind you, I have absolutely no appreciation for family values/concepts do to personal experiences, so my views are going to be heavily biased on that reason.
And what about the concept of helping another human being? Do you not have that?
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Old 2010-09-14, 13:26   Link #2970
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Lol. Brainwashed Issei sure is a creepy fuck...
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Old 2010-09-14, 14:00   Link #2971
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What was funny was that it was supposed to Caster's voice coming from him, but it only uses the voiceover for Issei's voice actor.
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Old 2010-09-15, 06:21   Link #2972
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Lol. Shinji gets Gilgemesh. Wonder how long that'll last...
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Old 2010-09-15, 12:12   Link #2973
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Lol. Brainwashed Issei sure is a creepy fuck...
The eyes he got when Caster took over creeped me the hell out. Those eyes... those eyes!
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Old 2010-09-15, 12:54   Link #2974
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And what about the concept of helping another human being? Do you not have that?
Without a good level of camaraderie with them, I frankly couldn't care less what happens to someone.

When your world is turned upside down, many people are afraid, but when the sky and ground are also ripped away from you, what do you do? I lost faith in almost everything, save camaraderie and the one thing humans are good at, war.



And, to stay on topic, I will agree that Issei sounded creepy as hell. To be honest, he should've been a bigger character, as should've Ayako. They were both the main character's best friends.
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Old 2010-09-15, 12:58   Link #2975
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And, to stay on topic, I will agree that Issei sounded creepy as hell. To be honest, he should've been a bigger character, as should've Ayako. They were both the main character's best friends.
Honestly, if I hadn't been spoiled for the game before I played, I have to admit I would have expected Ayako to have her own route. For a character who mainly served to talk to Shirou and Rin and explain certain things that were happening, she seemed to have a large presence. It's really a shame she didn't have her own route, though I can understand why since she's largely a normal girl who isn't involved in the War.
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Old 2010-09-15, 12:59   Link #2976
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An Ayako path could've taken a nasty turn if Rin found out... or it would be unbelievably hilarious having to watch Rin do whatever Ayako says for a day.
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Old 2010-09-16, 22:04   Link #2977
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Slowly but steadily progressing through UBW again. Got to the next set of new images, so...

Spoiler for More fun with UBW!:
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Old 2010-09-18, 14:49   Link #2978
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I think I forgot to mention this before but whilst I did say that the Fate route was better than the anime, I’d still say the Fate route is pretty damn average. I mean really, I found pretty much everything except the last arc almost completely pointless, and whilst the last arc did have its moments, overall it wasn’t particularly groundbreaking. The only explanations for the other arcs are to slowly reveal more about Saber and develop her relationship with Shirou. That’s not a bad thing they should’ve made the actual plots more complicated, connect with each other and into plot of the last arc. Otherwise, they’re wasting a perfectly good plot. The connections from one arc to another just seem far too superficial to me.

But another thing that might surprise you is that I don’t particularly like this whole ‘Summon a Heroic spirit and do battle with others’. It just kinda reminds me too much of those really bad mon series that I used to watch when I was kid. The RPG-like battle stats and Class system certainly don’t help. Nor the fact that they all dress like RPG characters. That’s certainly gonna limit my enjoyment of this story but there’s still the problem of these comedy moments in-between dark and life-threatening moments. They’re certainly funny and it’s an eroge VN so they obviously have to be there, but it’s just not what I’m looking for, so I get tempted to just skip them. Plus I never really could get my head round the idea of King Arthur being a young girl. No matter how good the Watsonian answer may be, the Doylist answer is all too apparent and it pisses me off. It’s the same for those hilariously poorly-drawn sex scenes.

Well anyway, I finally finished Unlimited Blade Works.

Spoiler for Wall of Text:


So overall, I’d say this was good. Quite frankly it was much better than the Fate route. The arcs have more connection to each other and the storyline is more complicated but everything until Casters death still feels like its done entirely to slowly build a connection between Archer and Shirou. However, this time Rin and Tohsaka are much more active. In Fate it seemed as if the only reason Shirou and Rin did anything was because their enemies forced them too. Shirou, Rin, Archer, Caster and Ilya are given far more character depth this time round which was good. I still have some other problems with UBW, some of which are specific to the route and some of which aren’t.

So far:
Anime: 4/10
Fate Route: 5/10
Unlimited Blade Works: 7/10

Now on to Heaven’s Feel!
Spoiler for space:
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Old 2010-09-18, 15:45   Link #2979
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Slowly but steadily progressing through UBW again. Got to the next set of new images, so...

Spoiler for More fun with UBW!:
You know, the more you talk about it the more it makes me want to go back and reinstall the patch with the RN images. I think I have a couple of them in my version, but not the full set. I feel tempted to go download it now.
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Old 2010-09-19, 00:57   Link #2980
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So far:
Anime: 4/10
Fate Route: 5/10
Unlimited Blade Works: 7/10
I don't have the time or patience to reply to everything in your post, but I'll answer one of your questions about Archer.

I thought it was pretty clear that Archer's life as a counter guardian turned him against his ideals... But anyhow. He kept being summoned into hell, having to destroy many humans to prevent humans from destroying themselves. All he was able to see in his life was the ugliest parts of human beings, and he started to hate the very people he originally wanted to save.
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