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Old 2010-09-26, 15:05   Link #3041
Haak
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I thought Caster fell in love with Kuzuki the day they met.

Is it possible that the shadow took control of Kuzuki and forced him to attack Caster and Caster tried to tried to destroy the shadows bind on Kuzuki by using her Noble Phantasm but ended up killing Kukuzi instead by accident?
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Old 2010-09-26, 15:07   Link #3042
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I thought Caster fell in love with Kuzuki the day they met.

Is it possible that the shadow took control of Kuzuki and forced him to attack Caster and Caster tried to tried to destroy the shadows bind on Kuzuki by using her Noble Phantasm but ended up killing Kukzi instead by accident?
Hm, true enough.

And I thought that Caster's Rule Breaker was for breaking contracts; unless she misaimed the thing, how would she be able to kill Kuzuki?
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Old 2010-09-26, 15:09   Link #3043
Haak
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*Shrugs*

By moving around too much? Maybe she had to make a shallow stab in just the right place but because he was attacking her, he resisted and she ended up stabbing him in the heart by accident or something like that. Just a wild guess. I don't know if it's just for contracts or not.
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Old 2010-09-26, 15:35   Link #3044
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
*Shrugs*

By moving around too much? Maybe she had to make a shallow stab in just the right place but because he was attacking her, he resisted and she ended up stabbing him in the heart by accident or something like that. Just a wild guess. I don't know if it's just for contracts or not.
Can the shadow even take over people? The only time it ever attacked a person, it usually absorbed that person (all the people who vanished in the town, along with its initial attack on Shirou, before he was saved or whatever). I don't recall there ever being any hints that the shadow could take control of someone and use them, unless you count how Sakura was being used by the Grail, and even then it was corrupting her.
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Old 2010-09-26, 15:50   Link #3045
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And I thought that Caster's Rule Breaker was for breaking contracts; unless she misaimed the thing, how would she be able to kill Kuzuki?
It is. But, it's still a knife. If you stab someone with a knife in the right place, you'll kill them.

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Can the shadow even take over people?
Not in that manner, no. Especially not servants. It can absorb them, but then they'd be corrupted, and Caster wasn't.

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unless you count how Sakura was being used by the Grail, and even then it was corrupting her.
Well, it only "takes over" Sakura because she has an actual contract with Angra Mainyu (thanks to Zouken...), and even then it takes 10 days. Whilst she is exceptionally mentally strong and, thus, lasted a lot longer than the average person would, I can't imagine it taking over someone instantly.

Last edited by Cherry_Lover; 2010-09-26 at 16:01.
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Old 2010-09-27, 20:56   Link #3046
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Well, it probably fits better in there, yes, but it's pretty much impossible to "move" an argument. But, you're right that the mods are somewhat anal about stuff like that on here, so....
Well, this is how I would do it. Maybe it will work, let's see.

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
There's a distinction between "in-game" reasoning and "out-of-game" reasoning. In in-game terms, an NP is supposed to be some representation of an ability or weapon that they had in life, so you can't use the fact that Nine Lives is essentially pointless in all realistic circumstances (in terms of fighting in the Grail War) to prove anything, because it doesn't matter from an in-game viewpoint.

From an out-of-game viewpoint, you are of course entirely right that Nasu invented NPs (like Rule Breaker) for the sake of convinience. However, we already know why Nasu invented Nine Lives. He did so so that Shirou could use it in HF to pwn Berserker. So, the fact that it has no use in any other circumstance isn't relevant.

More to the point, it doesn't matter. Even if he could use it, that wouldn't imply that it would have to be useful to him, because the person who is supposed to use it (in terms of the plot and the reasoning for it being included) is Shirou.
I don't know, this might be a little harsh to Nine Lives, don't you think? Tsubami Gaeshi is already described as an unblockable certain kill with only three instantaneous slashes. Nine Lives value against a single opponent is similar; even the fastest opponent can only block one of those nine shots, because they all hit at once. And if they're all hitting with Hercules-strength, that means Nine Lives is a sure-kill move if Hercules gets into melee range. Or bow range, since it can be done with arrows. God, Hercules as Archer would have been something to see...


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Well, they're also different types of attack. In fact, Bellophron isn't an attack at all. It's the reins to allow Rider to use Pegasus. The attack is just Rider flying really, really fast into Saber. They're not directly comparable.
Technically, but it's safe to assume the stats for the technique (A+, Anti-army, targets 50-300 people, etc.) refers to the attack of Pegasus charging while empowered by the reins, which have no power when they're not on Pegasus. That, the actual rein-boosted charge, moves so quickly and hits with such force it's basically a beam attack, and can be compared to Excalibur's attack. It's solidly inferior, but it can be compared.

Miscellaneous HF Godhand Notes:

The only mention of Godhand at all in any of Dark Berserker's appearances is that Shirou briefly mentions before Nine Lives connects 'his life has ended twice over'. But on the other hand, Shirou also mentions earlier that Berserker's wounds from his battle with Saber Alter are all unhealed, which makes no sense if Godhand is active; even normal Servant regeneration should have healed them after several days, so he doesn't seem to be healing his wounds at all, much less regenerating from death. Plus, that means that unless each stab of Nine Lives killed him and then the last one killed him more than once, he should have had one life left and pulped Shirou's head.

All I can assume is that the corruption really did screw up Godhand somehow after those lives were lost, which is hardly impossible. Godhand is part of his body, which is corrupted, skinned, and blinded, none of which is healing at all; further it's explicitly a Divine Blessing and days of exposure to its exact opposite, a mass of high-power curses, might very well have removed or lessened its effects.

Battle Continuation:

Battle Continuation was a point of contention, I recall, and that's because it is really NOT explained very well. In-game notes state that it allows the user to 'keep fighting until taking a clearly fatal blow', but both Lancer and Berserker use their Rank A continuation and keep going after taking fatal blows in UBW; Lancer after stabbing himself in the heart, to kill Kotomine, and Berserker to launch one final attack after running out of his lives in the Gate of Babylon spam.

I really don't know what to make of this. I guess the ability description should have said, 'allows the user to continue fighting if it would be really, really cool for them to keep fighting'.
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Old 2010-09-27, 21:16   Link #3047
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I don't know, this might be a little harsh to Nine Lives, don't you think? Tsubami Gaeshi is already described as an unblockable certain kill with only three instantaneous slashes. Nine Lives value against a single opponent is similar; even the fastest opponent can only block one of those nine shots, because they all hit at once. And if they're all hitting with Hercules-strength, that means Nine Lives is a sure-kill move if Hercules gets into melee range.
Well, true, I suppose. But, this is entirely beside the point, because what I was arguing was that you don't need to hit with all eight to kill the enemy once, which is what he was claiming.

Quote:
Technically, but it's safe to assume the stats for the technique (A+, Anti-army, targets 50-300 people, etc.) refers to the attack of Pegasus charging while empowered by the reins, which have no power when they're not on Pegasus. That, the actual rein-boosted charge, moves so quickly and hits with such force it's basically a beam attack, and can be compared to Excalibur's attack. It's solidly inferior, but it can be compared.
Erm, the stat should be related to the NP itself, which is Bellophron. Although, I'd have to check the stat screen to see, so....

Quote:
But on the other hand, Shirou also mentions earlier that Berserker's wounds from his battle with Saber Alter are all unhealed, which makes no sense if Godhand is active; even normal Servant regeneration should have healed them after several days, so he doesn't seem to be healing his wounds at all, much less regenerating from death.
Actually, the presense or otherwise of God Hand is irrelevant to this. If he wasn't actually killed, then he won't regenerate. Plus, I believe that Berserker only regenerates fatal wounds using God Hand. Non-fatal ones heal like any other wound to a servant would.

Quote:
Plus, that means that unless each stab of Nine Lives killed him and then the last one killed him more than once, he should have had one life left and pulped Shirou's head.
Yeah, that is a little odd. Although, if nine lives were to involve nine hits, like it should, then that coupled with the stab to the chest would be enough.

Quote:
All I can assume is that the corruption really did screw up Godhand somehow after those lives were lost, which is hardly impossible. Godhand is part of his body, which is corrupted, skinned, and blinded, none of which is healing at all; further it's explicitly a Divine Blessing and days of exposure to its exact opposite, a mass of high-power curses, might very well have removed or lessened its effects.
But, then, Nine Lives is useless. Shirou didn't need it, and it didn't help him.

Quote:
Battle Continuation was a point of contention, I recall, and that's because it is really NOT explained very well. In-game notes state that it allows the user to 'keep fighting until taking a clearly fatal blow', but both Lancer and Berserker use their Rank A continuation and keep going after taking fatal blows in UBW; Lancer after stabbing himself in the heart, to kill Kotomine, and Berserker to launch one final attack after running out of his lives in the Gate of Babylon spam.
Well, presumably it also acts to stop a clearly fatal blow from killing them instantly. I mean, being stabbed in the heart isn't instant death. Shirou survives it, after all. Unless you have ridiculous healing magic, it will kill you, but it's not instant.

But, the point is that him using Nine Lives was pointless if he only took one life, because the stab to the heart would have been enough.

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I really don't know what to make of this. I guess the ability description should have said, 'allows the user to continue fighting if it would be really, really cool for them to keep fighting'.
Yeah, lol....
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Old 2010-09-27, 21:29   Link #3048
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Mozco is so much better at articulating (typing?) points it makes me sad. ;_;

Anyway, the point I was trying to make about Bellerophon and Excalibur is that the two noble phantasm's are quite different (one is anti-army, for example, and another is anti-fortress) and they have a value difference, but the difference in power between them isn't at absurd points. I think, at least, based on how well Bellerophon did against Dark Saber's Excalibur, that if Excalibur could take 8 lives (just a random number, go with it for a moment) Bellerophon could take around 5. There's certainly a difference in power, especially since they are different, but it's not so vast that Bellerophon couldn't take out a single life.

Compare that to Caliburn versus how well Caladbolg and weakened Excalibur did against Berserker. It does state that weakened Excalibur didn't even take one of Berserker's lives, so it was probably as effective as Caladbolg.

Now, yes, Caladbolg is a broken phantasm and just exploded instead of unleashing a divine mystery, however Archer was able to kill Berserker 6 times using such methods in Fate.

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Actually, the presense or otherwise of God Hand is irrelevant to this. If he wasn't actually killed, then he won't regenerate. Plus, I believe that Berserker only regenerates fatal wounds using God Hand. Non-fatal ones heal like any other wound to a servant would.
Hmm, but in Fate after the battle with Archer he has his organs hanging out of his body and his limbs basically torn apart. He is able to sustain that life and heals his external wounds by the time he reaches Shirou, I believe this is due to God Hand.
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Old 2010-09-27, 21:36   Link #3049
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Well, true, I suppose. But, this is entirely beside the point, because what I was arguing was that you don't need to hit with all eight to kill the enemy once, which is what he was claiming.
Eh, with some of the crap Hercules fought during his lifetime, all nine shots would be very helpful for getting one kill. Some Servants could probably take it too... I don't know, if someone summoned Anteus or Achilles.


Quote:
Erm, the stat should be related to the NP itself, which is Bellophron. Although, I'd have to check the stat screen to see, so....
Bellerophon's Stats:

Rank: A+
Type: Anti-Army Noble Phantasm
Range: 2-50
Maximum Target: 300 People.

I've got to assume that the reins themselves would have a range of one and a Maximum Target of one Divine/Phantasmal Beast, so it seems that the stats given refer to the charge.


Quote:
Actually, the presense or otherwise of God Hand is irrelevant to this. If he wasn't actually killed, then he won't regenerate. Plus, I believe that Berserker only regenerates fatal wounds using God Hand. Non-fatal ones heal like any other wound to a servant would.
Ah. Well, that still leaves the question of why his normal wounds weren't healing, but that's a different topic.


Quote:
Yeah, that is a little odd. Although, if nine lives were to involve nine hits, like it should, then that coupled with the stab to the chest would be enough.


But, then, Nine Lives is useless. Shirou didn't need it, and it didn't help him.
Given how much text is given to describe it, it's hard to remember that the stab through the chest is the ninth hit of Nine Lives. The entire battle lasted less than three seconds, and two of those were them charging at each other. As for the rest, I don't know: I checked the Type-Moon wiki and it does say that Berserker was killed nine times by that barrage, but that should have left him with one life. Perhaps the actual act of being corrupted took a life's worth of energy from him. Or perhaps Nasu just isn't very good at math. I don't know what to say.

That said, even for the purposes of taking one life, it would hardly have been useless. Even with nine simultaneous strikes, Shirou still lost in terms of speed; Berserker got distracted by Ilya mid-swing. Piling up overwhelming damage to destroy him completely was his best shot at making sure the battle didn't turn into a mutual K.O. When you're fighting the freakin' Doom Giant, you don't stop to make sure he's dead after each swing. You keep swinging until your arm stops working.

Quote:
Well, presumably it also acts to stop a clearly fatal blow from killing them instantly. I mean, being stabbed in the heart isn't instant death. Shirou survives it, after all. Unless you have ridiculous healing magic, it will kill you, but it's not instant.
Could be. It's not in the game text, but its also the only thing that makes sense.
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Old 2010-09-27, 21:45   Link #3050
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Eh, with some of the crap Hercules fought during his lifetime, all nine shots would be very helpful for getting one kill. Some Servants could probably take it too... I don't know, if someone summoned Anteus or Achilles.
Well, perhaps that is true, but the basic point I was making (which is that an NP doesn't have to be useful) isn't invalidated by the fact that Nine Lives could, in fact, be useful anyway.

Quote:
I've got to assume that the reins themselves would have a range of one and a Maximum Target of one Divine/Phantasmal Beast, so it seems that the stats given refer to the charge.
Hmm, yes, true. That is somewhat odd, but never mind....

Quote:
Ah. Well, that still leaves the question of why his normal wounds weren't healing, but that's a different topic.
Yes....

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Given how much text is given to describe it, it's hard to remember that the stab through the chest is the ninth hit of Nine Lives.
Well, yeah, I suppose. I always thought that it was seperate (since all nine are supposed to be at the same time, and the final hit comes later), but I also remember there only being eight hits in the initial attack.

Quote:
As for the rest, I don't know: I checked the Type-Moon wiki and it does say that Berserker was killed nine times by that barrage, but that should have left him with one life. Perhaps the actual act of being corrupted took a life's worth of energy from him. Or perhaps Nasu just isn't very good at math. I don't know what to say.
Well, or Berserker could have lost another life somewhere along the line. But, yeah, it's somewhat odd....

Quote:
That said, even for the purposes of taking one life, it would hardly have been useless. Even with nine simultaneous strikes, Shirou still lost in terms of speed; Berserker got distracted by Ilya mid-swing. Piling up overwhelming damage to destroy him completely was his best shot at making sure the battle didn't turn into a mutual K.O.
The point is that he doesn't need it. He could have just stabbed Berserker in the heart with the first hit. Adding more hits only meant that Berserker's eventual death was delayed slightly. It didn't slow him down one bit. The only reason to do it is if he needed to take more than one life.

Quote:
Could be. It's not in the game text, but its also the only thing that makes sense.
Well, I think it's more "they don't stop until they're actually dead". A normal person could live for that long if their heart were stabbed, but they would be lying in a puddle of blood on the floor unable to do anything. Battle Continuation means that you spend those last moments kicking the shit out of the guy that killed you.
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Old 2010-09-27, 22:07   Link #3051
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Well, perhaps that is true, but the basic point I was making (which is that an NP doesn't have to be useful) isn't invalidated by the fact that Nine Lives could, in fact, be useful anyway.
Fair enough. I've wondered more than once if the Golden Fleece means that Medea could have been summoned as a Rider and rode the dragon it summons...


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Well, yeah, I suppose. I always thought that it was seperate (since all nine are supposed to be at the same time, and the final hit comes later), but I also remember there only being eight hits in the initial attack.
We might be able to chalk up the slight (and it would be less than a second) delay in the final strike to the fact that Shirou's version is incomplete. The true 'Nine Lives' used by Hercules apparently looks like the Hydra; each strike takes on the shape of a dragon's head and he can actually change the target after the attack has already been launched to either swarm a single target or hit multiple different people.

Summoning him as Berserker was a huge, huge waste.


Quote:
The point is that he doesn't need it. He could have just stabbed Berserker in the heart with the first hit. Adding more hits only meant that Berserker's eventual death was delayed slightly. It didn't slow him down one bit. The only reason to do it is if he needed to take more than one life.
*Shrug* Well, apparently he was trying to take more than one life (I guess we can say Archer's arm let him know about Godhand, since at that point Shirou shouldn't have known), but it's not too hard to rationalize the other way too. I mean, sure, a straight on thrust would have killed Berserker's one life, but it would have left him wide open for the counter blow that would kill him as well. You can argue that he was breaking out his best high-power attack to try and utterly destroy Berserker and prevent any sort of counter, and it just didn't work.


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Well, I think it's more "they don't stop until they're actually dead". A normal person could live for that long if their heart were stabbed, but they would be lying in a puddle of blood on the floor unable to do anything. Battle Continuation means that you spend those last moments kicking the shit out of the guy that killed you.
I... actually really like that description
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Old 2010-10-01, 07:14   Link #3052
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I... actually really like that description
So do I I'm new here so .. umm ..

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*Shrug* Well, apparently he was trying to take more than one life (I guess we can say Archer's arm let him know about Godhand, since at that point Shirou shouldn't have known), but it's not too hard to rationalize the other way too. I mean, sure, a straight on thrust would have killed Berserker's one life, but it would have left him wide open for the counter blow that would kill him as well. You can argue that he was breaking out his best high-power attack to try and utterly destroy Berserker and prevent any sort of counter, and it just didn't work.
Berserker's not actually dead after the Nine Lives he's in the verge of it .. he still could kill Shirou there but stopped and actually looked at Illya and eventually dies .. I somehow forgot.. Did Shirou stab him before Berserker actually got sucked by the shadow ??

Quote:
We might be able to chalk up the slight (and it would be less than a second) delay in the final strike to the fact that Shirou's version is incomplete. The true 'Nine Lives' used by Hercules apparently looks like the Hydra; each strike takes on the shape of a dragon's head and he can actually change the target after the attack has already been launched to either swarm a single target or hit multiple different people.

Summoning him as Berserker was a huge, huge waste.
I agree to here because of him being a Berserker most of his abilities when he is alive is suspended and cannot be used since he is Bahzahkah
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Old 2010-10-02, 11:07   Link #3053
Haak
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Finally got round to finishing Heaven's Feel:

Spoiler for wall of text and a lot of swearing:


So what are my final impressions? I think first I ought to point out the problems I had with the other routes:

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But another thing that might surprise you is that I don’t particularly like this whole ‘Summon a Heroic spirit and do battle with others’. It just kinda reminds me too much of those really bad mon series that I used to watch when I was kid. The RPG-like battle stats and Class system certainly don’t help. Nor the fact that they all dress like RPG characters. That’s certainly gonna limit my enjoyment of this story but there’s still the problem of these comedy moments in-between dark and life-threatening moments. They’re certainly funny and it’s an eroge VN so they obviously have to be there, but it’s just not what I’m looking for, so I get tempted to just skip them. Plus I never really could get my head round the idea of King Arthur being a young girl. No matter how good the Watsonian answer may be, the Doylist answer is all too apparent and it pisses me off. It’s the same for those hilariously poorly-drawn sex scenes.

So overall, I’d say this was good. Quite frankly it was much better than the Fate route. The arcs have more connection to each other and the storyline is more complicated but everything until Casters death still feels like it’s done entirely to slowly build a connection between Archer and Shirou. However, this time Rin and Tohsaka are much more active. In Fate it seemed as if the only reason Shirou and Rin did anything was because their enemies forced them too. Shirou, Rin, Archer, Caster and Ilya are given far more character depth this time round which was good. I still have some other problems with UBW, some of which are specific to the route and some of which aren’t.
Many of these problems aren’t much of a problem in this route. The RPG-like battling I can sort have handle because in this route it’s mostly the masters that do the leg work and the servants take the back seat. The sex scenes aren’t much a problem for me this time, either. Unlike Fate and UBW most of the storyline isn’t spent on conflicts with other masters in order to slowly build up the connection to the main storyline. However, the first half can be a bit uninteresting and they’re not exactly subtle on what the shadow thing was. And whether or not you empathise with Sakura can be a major factor in your enjoyment of this route. In the end I only managed to start empathising with her AFTER she went batshit insane. That's kinda disappointing for me since this is the route whether the romance becomes more relevant. Compared to the routes i have to say that the finale in this route was by far much more epic and “finale-like” than the previous routes and I ended up enjoying it a lot. There are some minor problems I’ve had that I’ve already pointed out but these are only minor complaints and it’s just me being picky.

Final Scores:
Anime: 4/10
Fate Route: 5/10
Unlimited Blade Works: 7/10
Heaven's Feel: 8/10
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Old 2010-10-02, 12:21   Link #3054
Moczo
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Finally got round to finishing Heaven's Feel:

Spoiler for wall of text and a lot of swearing:


So what are my final impressions? I think first I ought to point out the problems I had with the other routes:



Many of these problems arenít much of a problem in this route. The RPG-like battling I can sort have handle because in this route itís mostly the masters that do the leg work and the servants take the back seat. The sex scenes arenít much a problem for me this time, either. Unlike Fate and UBW most of the storyline isnít spent on conflicts with other masters in order to slowly build up the connection to the main storyline. However, the first half can be a bit uninteresting and theyíre not exactly subtle on what the shadow thing was. And whether or not you empathise with Sakura can be a major factor in your enjoyment of this route. In the end I only managed to start empathising with her AFTER she went batshit insane. That's kinda disappointing for me since this is the route whether the romance becomes more relevant. Compared to the routes i have to say that the finale in this route was by far much more epic and ďfinale-likeĒ than the previous routes and I ended up enjoying it a lot. There are some minor problems Iíve had that Iíve already pointed out but these are only minor complaints and itís just me being picky.

Final Scores:
Anime: 4/10
Fate Route: 5/10
Unlimited Blade Works: 7/10
Heaven's Feel: 8/10
Yeah, that's reasonable. I'd say that the parts of the game you seem to like the least (the Servant vs. Servant conflicts and such) were the parts I liked the most, so it does make sense we'd have largely opposite opinions. I thrive on grand, elaborate shonen-esque battle sequences with power-ups and glowy beams and crap, so HF didn't really click for me until near the end when Shirou started pouring out toxic amounts of Raw Awesome. That was enough to save the route for me, but came too late for me to call HF anything other than 'my third favorite'. Still, I'll admit that the finale from Dark Sakura's first appearance onward was excellent; I just found a lot of what came before that a slog.
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Old 2010-10-02, 13:10   Link #3055
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He couldn't project the Rule Breaker because he did not know it existed. He only learned of it though using Archer's arm after he parted ways with Rin. I think. Did he remove the scowl from his arm against Saber? He did right?
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Old 2010-10-02, 13:36   Link #3056
Haak
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I assumed the Rule Breaker was part of his master plan that he whispered into Riders ear to recruit her aid. Whatever he whispered, it made Rider smile so i figured it was something clever. The Rule Breaker is the only thing that comes to my mind.
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Old 2010-10-02, 14:07   Link #3057
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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
He couldn't project the Rule Breaker because he did not know it existed. He only learned of it though using Archer's arm after he parted ways with Rin. I think. Did he remove the scowl from his arm against Saber? He did right?
He saw it when Caster died, didn't he? I remember she was holding it when they walked into the Temple, and he even warned Saber not to get close to it.
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Old 2010-10-02, 14:21   Link #3058
Haak
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
Yep he did see:
Spoiler for Heaven's Feel:
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Old 2010-10-02, 14:35   Link #3059
Reckoner
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Join Date: Nov 2007
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That one CG where you see Kotomine in the last battle is honestly the most epic CG in all of F/S N. It single handedly redeems the whole arc of HF (Which I enjoyed nonetheless).
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Old 2010-10-02, 19:46   Link #3060
Cherry_Lover
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Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Then Rin decides to be harsh to Sakura. Er...shouldn’t you be a bit more considerate to someone who was raped and traumatised, Rin?
Yes, yes she should. But, Rin simply can't understand Sakura's situation at all.

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And how come no one has considered Sakura being the shadow, yet? They’ve already established that it might be independent of Zoken.
Rin and Shirou don't want to believe that the shadow is her, and Ilya actually knows, but is saying nothing because she knows that it would break Shirou for him to know the truth (and probably also further Zouken's goals...).

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I can understand Shirou trying decieve himself (This is the second time though. It may be understandable stupidity but it’s still stupidity) but Rin?
Rin has been decieving herself for years. I mean, think about it. The last time Rin saw Sakura before they were split up, she had black hair, Rin's coloured eyes and was happy. She comes across her a few years later (whenever she first sees her) and Sakura has purple hair and eyes and is thoroughly depressed. Which, BTW, Rin noticed (including the fact that Rin knows that Sakura is only happy around Shirou, which puts her actions in UBW into a new light...). Plus, she knows that Shinji is being at least moderately abusive. To not work out that something is seriously wrong, she has to have been deluding herself.

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And Zoken refuses to have Assassin kill Shirou and Rin because of arrogance and sadism. *sigh* So he’s just as bad as Gilgamesh.
Actually, it's perfectly logical. If he kills them, then there's no-one to break Sakura.

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Speaking of Gilgamesh, he attacks Sakura AND GETS TAKEN OUT. Let’s clarify this shall we? Gilgamesh...fucking Gilgamesh gets caught in the Worf Effect. Holy shit...
Well, it's perfectly logical. Also, he lost due to his arrogance, like usual.

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So Shirou’s desperately trying to deny what Sakura is doing. There’s no easy way to say this but Shirou officially has blood on his hands. People have already died and he knows they’ve died because of his indecision.
He didn't know what was going on, and it is somewhat unfair to expect him to murder the girl he loves in cold blood on a hunch.

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Let’s ignore the massive coincidence that the only two girls to notice Shirou then just happened to have been related in such a ridiculously fucked up and unlikely way.
Or, alternately, Rin was originally there to watch someone else.....

Think about it. Sakura went to that school (Shinji was at Shirou's middle school, so it stands to reason that Sakura would be too), but Rin did not (since she was with Issei, which Shirou would know if he were there too). Rin is also known to have watched over Sakura from a distance. So, the logical conclusion is that she was there to check up on Sakura, and happened to see Shirou and fall for him.

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Well Shirou comes to the dilemma of whether or not to kill her and decides to not to. He essentially becomes a bad guy. This would’ve been good if the game wasn’t making Shirou out to be a good guy instead:
Spoiler for wut:
Why? Not wanting to kill an innocent person, no matter how much of a danger they are, does not make you a "bad guy". Also, it's notable that no-one dies from this point on, except for a few people who thoroughly deserve it.

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Personally I would’ve rationalized it by getting the whole picture first and not just take Zoken’s word for it.
Well, this is pretty much what I did.

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I wonder what incredibly convenient plot element will be added now to turn things around so Shirou doesn’t have to become a complete monster?
How does not wanting to murder an innocent girl in cold blood make you a complete monster?

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(for some reason she didn’t think to extend that command to include Shirou).
Well, a) he wasn't there and b) she knows damn well that he would ignore any attempt from Rider to stop him, which might well result in Rider killing him (which she obviously doesn't want).

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Apparently he subscribes to a philosophy and believes that intentions don’t matter and Sakura must repay for her crimes with something of equal value (Personally I think it’s actually ALL Zoken’s fault and Sakura is completely blameless but whatever. I’m not dickish enough to say my views are right and his isn’t)
I am....

Those views are completely ridiculous. How can you blame someone for something they are completely blameless for?

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NOT try and kill Zoken or some strange reason.
At this point I don't think she can. The only way she could kill him is by removing the worm from her heart. Plus, Dark Sakura is Sakura when she's finally become mentally weakened enough to submit to Angra Mainyu. Zouken can control her pretty easily in that state.

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You know, you could’ve tried that before Rin got caught in the evil mud...
Wouldn't have worked. Sakura wanted to make Rin suffer (to some extent), and she needed to drain Rin in order that she couldn't fight, but there was enough of the old Sakura still in there not to want to kill her

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And what’s up with Rin? Did she know that Sakura was killing people all along or something.
No, she didn't. If she did, she'd have almost certainly killed her.

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So Shirou, Ilya AND Rin knew but none of them talked to each other about it and form a plan together because they were afraid of each other and facing up to the issue. Brilliant. Nice Job Breaking It you three.
Well, a large part of HF is driven by the fact that Rin and Shirou are rather idiotic in certain aspects (in particular, Rin's emotional intelligence seems to be stuck at the same level it was at when her father died...).

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Odd Sakura doesn’t seem that crazy actually.
It's more that the normal Sakura can still exert some amount of control on occasion.

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Blatant lies. You know what else are blatant lies? This:
Spoiler for Lies:
Yeah, lol. In fact, it's provably false, because Shirou is younger than Ilya, who is 18 (Fate/Zero proves it), and Sakura is younger than him. There's no way that Sakura can be 18. Not to mention that they're in the first/second year of high school. Sakura is 15 (nearly 16), Rin is 16/17 (her birthday is on about day 4 of the game) and Shirou is 16 or 17.

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I refuse to accept the idea its okay to dedicate yourself to one person if it means at the expense of others.
What, you mean like everyone in the world does. After all, if you gave the money you spend on yourself and on gifts to your family to charities, it could feed hundreds of people in Africa. We all do it, whether it be intentionally or unintentionally, and all HF Shirou does is realise that it's natural to care for some people more than others, and that it doesn't make you a "bad person" if you protect your loved ones first and foremost.

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This was very touching; however, I can NOT accept the fact that Sakura is blaming herself for this. As far as I can see, she’s totally blameless in everything, so it’s a bit hard for me to accept that this is what snaps Sakura back into reality.
Well, it's clearly wrong, but remember that Sakura has precisely zero self-esteem, so it's pretty natural for her to think that way.

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But he says Sakura has to take responsibility. Like I said, I think these are beliefs that are conflicting with my own so it’s kinda irritating that THIS turns out to be the Epiphany Therapy that suddenly cures Sakura of her trauma.
I like to think that he was simply telling her that because it's what she wants to hear, and the easiest way for him to get her to accept being saved. Because you're entirely right that she doesn't bear any responsibility for what happened.

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That is really fucking convenient. Wait, couldn’t Shirou have just projected rule breaker before the final fight and show it to Rin to tell her “look, you don’t have to kill her. You can just break the contract using this!” That wouldn’t have worked why?
He has a limited number of projections. Every time he makes a weapon, he gets weaker, and I would imagine that maintaining Rule Breaker for Rin to use over that period of time would cause her problems. Plus, he can't be sure that Rin would agree, or that she wouldn't avoid using it. He felt that he had to do it himself.

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WTF, did Ilya poke-evolve?
She's wearing the "Dress of Heaven" that she needs for the ritual. And I think Zouken is hallucinating somewhat.

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Damn it, I can’t believe this bastard gets a Redemption Equals Death. He so shouldn’t get one.
Yeah, I think that's one of the few bits about HF that manages to enrage just about everyone. Although, he doesn't really get Redemption Equals Death, because he's not done anything to be redeemed.

[quote]But Ilya makes up for it by making a touching Heroic Sacrifice.[/quotr]

Yeah....

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WTF?! Rider was saved but not Saber?!?!
It's not the Saber route. Rider was easy to save (Sakura just had to make a contract with her again, since she has the same Od levels as Rin (once the worms are gone), and it's proven in UBW that Rin is capable of supporing a servant without the Grail, so not keeping Rider around would have seemed like a cop-out.

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And why the hell did they act like Shirou was dead.
Suspense....

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And the normal ending is just too depressing for me to even comment on.
Yeah....

:'(

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And whether or not you empathise with Sakura can be a major factor in your enjoyment of this route.
Yeah, this is true. There seems to be a pretty clean divide between the two. People who empathise with Sakura like HF, those who don't tend not to like it.

Last edited by Cherry_Lover; 2010-10-03 at 08:25.
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