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Old 2010-10-02, 22:13   Link #3061
LostHanyou
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I'm sure if Shirou went with the mind of steel bad end instead of saving Sakura he still wouldn't be a perfect good guy. It really is just a lesser of two evils, and it comes down to different perspectives. I probably would save Sakura as well if I were in Shirou's position, even if it seems wrong by most common moral standards.
Really, these characters all have flaws, but overall I think it's safe to say Shirou is the good guy.

And yes, Kotomine is so amazing in HF.
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Old 2010-10-02, 22:28   Link #3062
mAc Chaos
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lol Cherry Lover makes me laugh. He ignored the other two rants about the other routes but jumped on the HF one. :P
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Old 2010-10-03, 04:06   Link #3063
Haak
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Yeah, I actually kinda dreaded posting my final impressions because I knew this would happen. I'm not gonna reply to everything though. Most of them are just commeting anyway.

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Old 2010-10-03, 07:23   Link #3064
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by LostHanyou View Post
I'm sure if Shirou went with the mind of steel bad end instead of saving Sakura he still wouldn't be a perfect good guy.
He wouldn't be. He'd just be some guy who goes around killing people because he thinks they might be a danger to others.

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I probably would save Sakura as well if I were in Shirou's position, even if it seems wrong by most common moral standards.
Well, at the time of MoS, they had no idea that Sakura was the shadow. Shirou had no good reason to kill her whatsoever. The second time around, perhaps he did, but you try murdering your girlfriend (who has lived a thoroughly shitty life and has finally found just a little happiness) like that and see how far you get. Plus, doing so likely means that Zouken succeeds in turning Sakura Dark and obtaining the Grail, so....

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
There doesn't have to be anyone to break them. Killing them would've broken her. Zoken specifically said that if someone lost the only thing that was going for them, that would break them.
No, it wouldn't. To break her, he had to make her think that Shirou had betrayed her, or to make her think that she was truly evil. To kill Shirou himself would simply make Sakura give up on life entirely. She'd have no wish to survive and no wish to do anything, so the corruption wouldn't be able to take her. And, even if it could, she would have no real reason to fight any more, and indeed would likely kill Zouken....

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He doesn't know what's going on because he doesn't want to. He said it himself.
Just like Rin with Sakura's situation with the Matous, then. They both wanted to believe that everything was OK, so they ignored the warning signs.

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You think Saber desevered it? You heartless bastard.
I meant at Sakura's hands.

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And I think the fact that no one dies afterwards is just another cop out to not make Shirou look like the bad guy. Because, honestly if people did start dying again then his posiiton would look a lot worse.
Well, this is perhaps true. But, it also shows that Sakura has no reason to kill people. As the shadow, she was doing so because she was 'hungry', but in her Dark form she had no need to go around eating people for prana.

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It doesn't. I said to stop him from turning into a complete monster. He was sliding down a slippery slope. Come on, I'm sure you've sen plenty of villians that only do the things they do because of someone they love.
Yes, but Shirou was never one of them. Shirou never acted like a 'villain'. By the same argument, Batman is "sliding down a slippery slope to being a Complete Monaster" every time he spares the Joker and sends him back to prison rather than blowing his head off. Hell, most heroes won't even kill a genuine villain, even if they're a potential danger in the future.

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It's about reasonably reconciling the two. Perhaps it was a bit presumptive of me to say he was being the bad guy when in fact he still cared about saving people's lives when he was willing to sacrifice himself to destroy Angra Manyu
You're being extremely presumptive, yes. Refusing to kill somoene can never make you a bad guy, because killing people is a fundamentally bad thing to do. There are times when it can be considered necessary, but to say that someone is evil for refusing to kill someone (no matter how dangerous that person is) is just plain ridiculous.

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but you can't deny that one of the factors that prevented Shirou from going to the extreme end was pure luck that Dark Sakura didn't cross the line
See the last bad end. She did cross the line there, and Shirou recognised it. He was eaten, of course, because it was a bad end, but he knew Sakura was too far-gone to be saved.

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even though i think he did the right thing by not killing Sakura, it's only because i don't think he had the clear picture to make a decision yet.
Well, yes, this is true. If he'd known the full details at the MoS stage, I can't imagine he'd have let her live.

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He believed that the only way to save Sakura involved having her survive to the end of the war and at the same time believed that doing so would take more innocent lives.
He did not know this. To kill someone on a hunch is a hallmark of all the worst forms of authoritarianism. I mean, it's the same argument used by Bush to support Guantanemo Bay and the torture of suspects. It's the same argument used by Lenin to support his actions. If you start killing innocent people "just in case", then you're on a very slippery slope to becoming a Knight Templar. It's wrong to sacrifice the life of an innocent human being because of things that they might do that they are not in control of.
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Old 2010-10-03, 10:38   Link #3065
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He saw it when Caster died, didn't he? I remember she was holding it when they walked into the Temple, and he even warned Saber not to get close to it.
Then I've got nothing, lol.
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Old 2010-10-03, 11:16   Link #3066
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Old 2010-10-03, 14:18   Link #3067
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Okay, so, the other day I was trying to explain HF to my friend who had recently started playing the game, and I kind of stumbled onto a plot hole that I hadn't noticed before (unless it was explained in-game or I misunderstood the information):

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Old 2010-10-03, 14:24   Link #3068
Marion
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Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
Okay, so, the other day I was trying to explain HF to my friend who had recently started playing the game, and I kind of stumbled onto a plot hole that I hadn't noticed before (unless it was explained in-game or I misunderstood the information):

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Old 2010-10-03, 14:26   Link #3069
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Old 2010-10-03, 14:30   Link #3070
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Old 2010-10-03, 14:48   Link #3071
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I really hate talking about this, it makes me rage to no end.
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Old 2010-10-03, 14:57   Link #3072
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I really hate talking about this, it makes me rage to no end.
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Old 2010-10-03, 15:29   Link #3073
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I thought she already had no wish to survive when she went insane...
Perhaps, but she had less hatred for Zouken. Him killing Shirou would only make her resist fighting even harder, to get back at him, and she would no longer fear what he could do with the heart worm, so he would lose control of her.

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Which not even Fate Shirou had any qualms about...Remember when he tried to kill Shinji when he refused to order Rider to take down Bloodfort?
Yes, but there's a big difference between threatening to kill someone if they don't stop their servant from killing others (and then letting them go when they do, even though they're still a clear threat) and killing an innocent girl in cold blood because of what she might do.

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As for the Batman analogy I would agrue that they're different circumstances.
Yeah, they are. The Joker is an actual villain, and is intentionally harming people. Sakura is not.

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Batman can stop the Joker without killing him and knows it.
Yes, but he can't stop him from breaking out of Arkham and killing people again....

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Shirou had absolutely no idea how to take down Zoken or the shadow.
And at that point he had no idea that the shadow was in any way related to Sakura.

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Plus Batman was just following the law. Shirou wasn't and was quite possibly breaking it by going against Rin.
Lol, what? I'm pretty sure that the laws of Japan are no more supportive of pre-emptively murdering people who could harm others than the laws of America are. And, before you start invoking Magic Association laws, remember that Shirou doesn't follow those, because he's not a magus.

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Yes she was too far to be saved but she hadn't really crossed the line by killing Rin anymore than she had by killing all those innocent people when she was the shadow.
Well, the difference is that killing those people was something she had no control over. Torturing Rin was something that she chose to do, albeit when she was too insane to be truly accountable. There's no way she could come back from that, and Shirou knew it.

The point is that when she did something that made her truly irredeemable, he recognised that he could no longer save her. So, there's no evidence whatsoever for your statement that her doing so would lead him to follow her straight over the Moral Event Horizon, and indeed the game proves the exact opposite. He wasn't like Rider. Rider wanted Sakura to live above all, but Shirou wanted her to be free from AM's control above all. If he had to choose between letting her live as Dark Sakura and killing her, he would have killed her, because all that makes her life worth living is already gone.

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Yes but he did not know it was just a hunch. At the time he thought he had all the information.
Yes, but the information that he had only told him that Sakura might kill people. Until Zouken told him the truth, "Sakura is the shadow" was only a hunch. Nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
1) Sakura had a lot of sexual frustration because of the worms, so that needed to be released. Zouken let Shinji rape her for that reason.
Well, it satisfied her sexual frustration, but she seems fine post-Fate and UBW without it. I'd imagine that she'd be better off were he not raping her, although her state of almost constant arousal may well have led to her doing something that would endanger Zouken.

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2) Shinji wanted to let out his anger on Sakura, who turned out to be the successor even though a) she wasn't a Makiri by blood and b) he was trying to be a magus himself, but was then told he couldn't because of the circumstances.
Honestly, this is the main reason. It's never even stated in-game that Zouken actually ordered him to do it at all. Shinji seems to mostly do it of his own free will.

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It really had nothing to do with mana- Sakura only began to lose mana after summoning Rider, but that stopped after she gave her over to Shinji.
Actually, the semen of even non-magi contains some prana. I'd agree that it wasn't the main reason, though.
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Old 2010-10-04, 12:31   Link #3074
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Old 2010-10-04, 15:18   Link #3075
Cherry_Lover
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I'm not so sure. I mean right before that Zoken specifically said that a person who lost the one thing that was going for them would pretty much lose all hope.
Yes, she would lose hope. But, that wouldn't cause her to accept the shadow. If anything, she'd have no reason to accept it any more, because she doesn't have any reason to care about herself or to do anything but hate Zouken.


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I think we're detracting from the original point. What I originally said was something along the lines of "I wonder what introduced plot element will stop shirou from becoming a complete monster". I'm fully aware that he hadn't yet.
He doesn't need one, becausee Shirou is quite clearly incapable of being a Complete Monster. For that matter, anyone in that situation is incapable of becoming a Complete Monster, because the sympathy that the whole "my girlfriend is turning into a monster, I want to save her" thing bringds about precludes it.

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Just that he could and that it was an extra plot element that prevented him from doing so.
And this is what I am challenging. It's clear to me that Shirou could never be a Complete Monster, and I find it pretty hard to see him ever becoming a villain at all. Archer is about as close as he comes, and he's not a true villain. But, there's no way that you could claim that what he does in HF makes him a villain. He still tries to save innocent people, and he sacrifices his own life to do so. He just wants to save Sakura too.

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He did actually. I'm talking about when Shirou held the knife over Sakura whilst she was sleeping. The bad ending leds to Rider kiling him. He got the truth (or rather the half truth) from Zoken before that.
You never made this clear.

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The laws in Japan don't cover magic and such it's beyound their jurisdiction. They could probably try and apply it but it would be somewhat difficult. Unlike in normal circumstances Shirou couldn't exactly rely on the police to sort this out.
And the laws of magi don't apply to Shirou, because he's not a member of the Association and has no real intention of becoming one. Not that it matters, in any case, because the laws of the Association also say that anyone who witnesses magic must be killed, and yet I doubt you'd be calling Shirou 'evil' for not following those. And Batman can't rely on the police to "sort the Joker out" anymore than Shirou can, given how many times the Joker has escaped from Arkham.

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Frankly i think that's a contradiction. How can she cross the Moral Event Horizon but doing something she can't be held accountable for? She may have thought it was her choice to do so but it wasn't really. It was simply something that Sakura could never come back from rather than crossing the Moral Event Horizon.
Well, I'm making a distinction between Dark Sakura (who crossed the Moral Event Horizon with that act) and normakl Sakura, his is clearly not sane at that point and, thus, isn't to blame for those actions. However, she would feel that she was to blame, and hence in her own mind she is irredeemable.

Quote:
Again, this is AFTER Zoken told him the truth. not before. When Shirou held the knife over Sakura, he knew Sakura was the dark shadow.

Well, all that scene proved was that Shirou is, in fact, human. Very few people could kill their girlfriend (who they are deeply in love with) in cold blood, no matter what they had done (even if it were intentional). It doesn't make him evil in any way whatsoever./

Last edited by Cherry_Lover; 2010-10-04 at 15:36.
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Old 2010-10-04, 16:03   Link #3076
Haak
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Old 2010-10-04, 18:33   Link #3077
Cherry_Lover
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I don't see it that way. I see it as more there would be no reason for her to deny it anymore.
And I don't see her just giving in like that. She has to consciously accept the evil, and she wouldn't do that. Zouken needed her to feel betrayed or to make her think that she was evil.

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Okay, a poor choice of words on my part. I didn't mean TVtropes Complete monster. I simply meant villian.
Ah, OK.

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I'm fully aware that what he does doesn't make him a villian. My point is that we're never given an oppurtunity to actually see if he is willing to cross that Moral Event Horizon if he has to, and I could only think of one reason why. Because he very well could.
Oh, come on, this is Shirou we're talking about. He'd never do something genuinely evil. Even Archer couldn't.

We're never given the opportunity to see this because putting him in a position where a Moral Event Horizon crossing was possible would pretty much destroy the possibility of an even remotely good end.

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Huh? You were responding to my Live Blog which I'm sure specified at what point this was. Tsk, tsk. Excuses, excuses...
Originally I was, yes. But, the argument got somewhat side-tracked, and how you were arguing made it seem to me like you were talking about MoS.

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The Joker doesn't have incredibly hax supernatural powers so I'm pretty sure Batman can rely on the police a bit more.
Except that he always escapes. After the tenth time, you'd think Batman would have caught on....

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The law, however, could possibly forgive Shirou for killing a potential A-bomb.
The law is entirely irrelevant here....

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I don't think that's a dsictinction that's possible to make.
Except that you clearly are making it. Dark Sakura is clearly self-aware and sentient, yet Sakura is not responsible for her actions. Ergo, they are effectively different people.

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Even if SHE thinks that killing Rin crosses the Moral Event Horizon, the fact remains is that she had no more control over her actions as Dark Sakura than she did when she killed people as the shadow, so regardless of what she thinks, she didn't cross the Moral Event Horizon after killing Rin and so therefore, we didn't not see Shirou coosing to kill Sakura after crossing the Moral Event Horizon. What we saw was Shirou choosing to kill someone who simply could not be saved anymore.
Well, OK, this is true. However, it's the closest to genuinely crossing it that Sakura will ever come, because she's simply not the sort of person who would do something that Shirou (or anyone reasonable) would see as a genuine Moral Event Horizon crossing.

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Fair enough, but the original point was that "He believed that the only way to save Sakura involved having her survive to the end of the war and at the same time believed that doing so would take more innocent lives". And that wasn't just a hunch. It's just absurdly lucky for Shirou's beliefs that it didn't happen.
Well, this is partially true, although he didn't know that she would take more innocent lives, and I'm sure that he has enough faith in her to believe that she'd take every possible step to prevent it once she realises what she is (which she does indeed do, albeit in a manner which backfires spectacularly).
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Old 2010-10-05, 01:37   Link #3078
Haak
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I think this has mostly just been degraded to simply having different perspectives, so i don't think we're gonna get much further anymore. I just want to make one comment:

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We're never given the opportunity to see this because putting him in a position where a Moral Event Horizon crossing was possible would pretty much destroy the possibility of an even remotely good end.
Even so I think it still greatly undermines Shirou's position. Given the tone of the storyline we're evidently supposed to believe that Shirou is doing everything right even though the more morally ambigious aspects of his newly found perspective aren't fully explored.

I think this is actually what Shirou killing Saber should've been. It's just that it doesn't really work very well because we knew that servants disappear anyway and there wasn't really anyway Shirou could've saved Saber even if he did break her from the darkness.
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Old 2010-10-05, 11:22   Link #3079
Cherry_Lover
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Even so I think it still greatly undermines Shirou's position. Given the tone of the storyline we're evidently supposed to believe that Shirou is doing everything right even though the more morally ambigious aspects of his newly found perspective aren't fully explored.
And, to me, killing someone is never "right", even if it may sometimes be necessary.

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I think this is actually what Shirou killing Saber should've been. It's just that it doesn't really work very well because we knew that servants disappear anyway and there wasn't really anyway Shirou could've saved Saber even if he did break her from the darkness.
Well, Shirou killing Saber was the closest that it could ever come, really. The reason there is nothing genuinely villainous that Shirou had to do in order to save Sakura is because he wouldn't have done it, and since the canonical story requires Sakura to live, such situations could not therefore come up.
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Old 2010-10-05, 17:55   Link #3080
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Well, Shirou killing Saber was the closest that it could ever come, really. The reason there is nothing genuinely villainous that Shirou had to do in order to save Sakura is because he wouldn't have done it, and since the canonical story requires Sakura to live, such situations could not therefore come up.
I gotta say, though, that would have been a rather interesting twist, honestly. Then again, maybe I just enjoy torturing Shirou too much?

Anyway, after playing through some scenes of HF again, I have to say...

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