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Old 2010-10-22, 19:34   Link #3141
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Shirou in HF burdens sin for the sake of happiness. Not just his own but for anyone close to him. Shirou realized his own ideal which is saving people close to him. Saving nameless and faceless people don't bring him happiness he so sought for.They disappear as soon as he saved them and maybe only show a little gratitude. What Shirou wants to share his happiness with others and see happy people around him.
Actually I'd like to point this is slightly wrong and missing the point by quite a bit. Saving people made him content, he died with a smile on his face. Saving Sakura had very little to do with his happiness, being with Rin or Saber would have made him equally as happy as being with Sakura hence why the ideal had nothing to do with happiness. The reason he was unhappy was because of guilt the reason why he truly followed the ideal was because he believed it to be beautiful. Shirou's guilt and his ideal are mutually exclusive. He can deal with his guilt, be happy and still follow his ideal as shown by UBW.

Anyway people saying that Shirou's ideal and his choice to save Sakura as being the same are quite blatantly missing the point. Saving Sakura is furthest you can get from shirou's ideal, the absolute furthest. Shirou wants to save as many people as possible in order to reduce the likeliness of the events that occured 10 years from happening again. He can't save everyone so he selflessly saves as many people as possible. HF Shirou actively produces fires like those that happened 10 years ago for selfish reasons, not only is their actions oposite their reasons for doing it are also opposite. If UBW or Fate Shirou met HF Shirou they would try to kill him as he is precisely the anti-thesis to their ideal. They are in no way the same. How would anyone believe they are following the same ideal, UBW and Fate revolve around selflessness, HF revolves around selfishness it's about as different as good and evil.
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Old 2010-10-22, 20:07   Link #3142
LostHanyou
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Different perspectives, I guess. But remember Shirou is still the exact same person in HF as he is in the other routes. He completely throws away his ideal that we all very well know is incredibly important to him. He does it to save someone he loves. I think that's an amazing thing to do.

You can't compare what he did to what everyone else would do in that situation. "Everyone else" does not have their whole life revolving around one ideal. It wasn't just him throwing his ideal away, it was him throwing away his being up to that point away. Really everyone seems to undermine that fact - he abandoned himself for someone else. In that regard, he is still doing the same thing as before.

Of course, in reality his actual ideal certainly changed... Even abandoned. But I don't think that makes Shirou less admirable.
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Old 2010-10-23, 06:39   Link #3143
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by LostHanyou View Post
Different perspectives, I guess. But remember Shirou is still the exact same person in HF as he is in the other routes. He completely throws away his ideal that we all very well know is incredibly important to him. He does it to save someone he loves. I think that's an amazing thing to do.

You can't compare what he did to what everyone else would do in that situation. "Everyone else" does not have their whole life revolving around one ideal. It wasn't just him throwing his ideal away, it was him throwing away his being up to that point away. Really everyone seems to undermine that fact - he abandoned himself for someone else. In that regard, he is still doing the same thing as before.

Of course, in reality his actual ideal certainly changed... Even abandoned. But I don't think that makes Shirou less admirable.
Admirable but extremely dodgy. Sure he was throwing away himself for her and pretty much sacrificed a large part of his being to be with her, but he did this for the closest person to him and sacrificed hundreds of peoples lives people who more than likely equally had the right to be saved. Why did Sakura live but hundreds die, because she was close to him... tell that to their grieving families.

He did all this for extremely selfish reasons mostly to make him and Sakura happy. Shirou's ideal may not be perfect and cause a fair amount of harm especially to himself but it's selfless fair and just and it's how most of the world works. The ideal for a war is to minimise the number of casualities, the ideal for a natural disaster is to save the most amount of people possible. Why because it's fair and just.

Shirou's ideal may not be perfect but it's far, far superior morally to what he did for Sakura.
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Old 2010-10-23, 07:03   Link #3144
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And yet.. if you go into battle ceding in your heart the determination that all can be saved you have already lost.

The slope there descends to Minority Report levels. You basically admit that not everyone can be saved, and so you won't even try. You will forfeit those who seem beyond salvation, even if all hope was not lost.

RL example- the charity which is currently offering money for sterilisation for drug addicts (Project Salvation). Their argument is that those people would simply give birth to "litters" of addict children and fuel social problems. Yet what of those who have been able to come around? To stop their addiction, be successful, have a family? Had they accepted this program, that family wouldn't exist. The counter argument is that it "saves" many more than may be harmed, and yet in the end to sacrifice the happiness of even a few for the "good" of many is not a solution. It is merely evasion.

To be a "hero if justice" is to try and save everyone. Not just many, EVERYONE. Not calculating the numbers, the odds, and deciding who lives and who dies. To have abandoned Sakura, that's a foregone outcome- 100% death. As long as you keep trying, no matter how small the chance, is the hope that you can save everyone.

"If you don't try to save one life, you'll never save any."

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Old 2010-10-23, 08:58   Link #3145
Tenchi Hou Take
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And yet.. if you go into battle ceding in your heart the determination that all can be saved you have already lost.

The slope there descends to Minority Report levels. You basically admit that not everyone can be saved, and so you won't even try. You will forfeit those who seem beyond salvation, even if all hope was not lost.

RL example- the charity which is currently offering money for sterilisation for drug addicts (Project Salvation). Their argument is that those people would simply give birth to "litters" of addict children and fuel social problems. Yet what of those who have been able to come around? To stop their addiction, be successful, have a family? Had they accepted this program, that family wouldn't exist. The counter argument is that it "saves" many more than may be harmed, and yet in the end to sacrifice the happiness of even a few for the "good" of many is not a solution. It is merely evasion.

To be a "hero if justice" is to try and save everyone. Not just many, EVERYONE. Not calculating the numbers, the odds, and deciding who lives and who dies. To have abandoned Sakura, that's a foregone outcome- 100% death. As long as you keep trying, no matter how small the chance, is the hope that you can save everyone.

"If you don't try to save one life, you'll never save any."

Not a Sakura fan
For starters trying to save Sakura had nothing to do with breaking Shirou's ideal, however what Shirou should have done if he was going to try to save her was to absolutely make sure Sakura did not kill anyone and if she did make sure the person she killed was Shirou and that he would in turn make sure she died during or directly after she killed him. This was stated in the game.

Anyway it is foolish to attempt to save everyone, why because it's greedy, those who try to over shoot themselves end up with nothing. It is simply an ideal to strive towards because the closer you get the more people will be happy but it will never be achieved.

The problem with HF is that he is trying to be God. No human has the right to determine whether another human deserves to live or die. I personally can not decide that you should die because you've killed 10 people when I myself am not blameless.

Now you could say that the ideal is no different from this but it is in fact fundamentally different. The ideal does not take into account prejudice, personal morality or any other factors. It considers every human life equal and so is completely fair. It is not UBW or Fate Shirou that decides whether people live or die but that fact if all lives are considered equal then the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Now tell me would you rather have had everyone that was close to die simply because they simply weren't close to Hf Shirou or would you rather have them die in order to save a magnitude more live. HF Shirou judges thousands of peoples lives completely on his whims, he judges them on the prejudice that Sakura is more important than everyone. He is in essence attempting to be god when he is but a man. It is the difference between a Justice system and personal vigilantism.

Why did you state that you didn't like Sakura, that has nothing to do with this discussion, I actually like Sakura's character but that has nothing to do with why I consider what HF Shirou did to be wrong.
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Old 2010-10-23, 12:11   Link #3146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Actually I'd like to point this is slightly wrong and missing the point by quite a bit. Saving people made him content, he died with a smile on his face. Saving Sakura had very little to do with his happiness, being with Rin or Saber would have made him equally as happy as being with Sakura hence why the ideal had nothing to do with happiness. The reason he was unhappy was because of guilt the reason why he truly followed the ideal was because he believed it to be beautiful. Shirou's guilt and his ideal are mutually exclusive. He can deal with his guilt, be happy and still follow his ideal as shown by UBW.

Anyway people saying that Shirou's ideal and his choice to save Sakura as being the same are quite blatantly missing the point. Saving Sakura is furthest you can get from shirou's ideal, the absolute furthest. Shirou wants to save as many people as possible in order to reduce the likeliness of the events that occurred 10 years from happening again. He can't save everyone so he selflessly saves as many people as possible. HF Shirou actively produces fires like those that happened 10 years ago for selfish reasons, not only is their actions opposite their reasons for doing it are also opposite. If UBW or Fate Shirou met HF Shirou they would try to kill him as he is precisely the anti-thesis to their ideal. They are in no way the same. How would anyone believe they are following the same ideal, UBW and Fate revolve around selflessness, HF revolves around selfishness it's about as different as good and evil.
Its not as cut and dry as that.

Um, no, saving as many people as possible is not the core of his ideal. The ideal he had was to not see the people in front of him cry(he respected Kiritsugu, but he wanted to take the ideal further than just being a matter of balancing the scale). Lots of people miss that and look at the rather machine-like part of the ideal that Kiritsugu followed. What Shirou believes he has to follow is the ideal that says that no matter what, evil must be punished. Its not about saving people, its about justice. This part of it was hollow, because if all you care about is ideals, how can you care about people. Lots of times throughout the visual novel, when he comes into conflict with the idea of "necessary sacrifices" he loses it. The only reason he was so torn so much in HF was because he is inherently broken as an individual. He castigated himself for not expunging what was evil, because of his memories of the fire and how he was the only one who survived. Therefore, he cannot stand to allow anyone to be hurt, because he thinks of himself as sinful, so it is his obligation to protect people. There is always two things at work inside Shirou: The ideal, which demands that people be saved at any cost, and his true desire, to not see anyone cry.

In the Fate route, he admits that he abandoned the orphans to their Fate, now, we know the Grail is corrupted, but if it hadn't have been, wouldn't it not be quite cruel to say that the orphans don't deserve the wish and to be saved? He didn't have to reverse time, but he could save them since they were still alive with a wish if the Grail wasn't corrupted. What went on there was a self-righteous montage of "having the grace to accept what you cannot change" but in bad context (since he didn't know at that point the Grail was corrupted).

The best way to show us what he really wanted is to look at this scene:



Quote:
For starters trying to save Sakura had nothing to do with breaking Shirou's ideal, however what Shirou should have done if he was going to try to save her was to absolutely make sure Sakura did not kill anyone and if she did make sure the person she killed was Shirou and that he would in turn make sure she died during or directly after she killed him. This was stated in the game.

Anyway it is foolish to attempt to save everyone, why because it's greedy, those who try to over shoot themselves end up with nothing. It is simply an ideal to strive towards because the closer you get the more people will be happy but it will never be achieved.
First of all, Sakura did not kill anyone who was not attacking her. This has been stated in the game that they acknowledge that she is blameless but was also a threat. Like how you cannot place blame on a soldier who had been turned into a cyborg against his will and made to kill people. There is no easy cut and dry answer here, but to make things easier, people would say that Sakura would be at fault, because saying that a vague "All Evils of this World" is the culprit doesn't have a solid person to balance on the scale, because it cannot contemplate its actions.

Secondly, this doesn't fix the root problem, which is the Holy Grail itself, which, had certain people been more attentive, would have been the logical place to go to. Dismantling the magic circle would have solved a great deal of problems in one go. All killing Sakura does is take care of one issue, and as I said before, proper communication would have worked wonders. Ilya knew where the Great Holy Grail was, Rin had an idea, Ilya knew who the shadow and the other Holy Grail was before Rin and Shirou. People just didn't think on the situation enough.

A great deal of issues would have been resolved,so honestly, I don't blame Shirou at all for not choosing the expedient route. In my opinion, that would have been the foolish choice, because at the end, they would have sacrificed her for nothing but a temporary destruction of one, possibly two dangers. It would be a waste, and neglecting his true desire.

Quote:
Admirable but extremely dodgy. Sure he was throwing away himself for her and pretty much sacrificed a large part of his being to be with her, but he did this for the closest person to him and sacrificed hundreds of peoples lives people who more than likely equally had the right to be saved. Why did Sakura live but hundreds die, because she was close to him... tell that to their grieving families.
All I have to say to that is, where does it end?
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Old 2010-10-23, 15:26   Link #3147
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
Its not as cut and dry as that.

Um, no, saving as many people as possible is not the core of his ideal. The ideal he had was to not see the people in front of him cry(he respected Kiritsugu, but he wanted to take the ideal further than just being a matter of balancing the scale). Lots of people miss that and look at the rather machine-like part of the ideal that Kiritsugu followed. What Shirou believes he has to follow is the ideal that says that no matter what, evil must be punished. Its not about saving people, its about justice. This part of it was hollow, because if all you care about is ideals, how can you care about people. Lots of times throughout the visual novel, when he comes into conflict with the idea of "necessary sacrifices" he loses it. The only reason he was so torn so much in HF was because he is inherently broken as an individual. He castigated himself for not expunging what was evil, because of his memories of the fire and how he was the only one who survived. Therefore, he cannot stand to allow anyone to be hurt, because he thinks of himself as sinful, so it is his obligation to protect people. There is always two things at work inside Shirou: The ideal, which demands that people be saved at any cost, and his true desire, to not see anyone cry.

In the Fate route, he admits that he abandoned the orphans to their Fate, now, we know the Grail is corrupted, but if it hadn't have been, wouldn't it not be quite cruel to say that the orphans don't deserve the wish and to be saved? He didn't have to reverse time, but he could save them since they were still alive with a wish if the Grail wasn't corrupted. What went on there was a self-righteous montage of "having the grace to accept what you cannot change" but in bad context (since he didn't know at that point the Grail was corrupted).

The best way to show us what he really wanted is to look at this scene:

I wouldn't actually say that Shirou was all that concerned about punishing evil, he didn't care about what they did he simply wanted people to be happy, he wanted to ideally save people from those evils. This however did not stretch to himself, he believed humans to be sacred that are worthy to saved from their crimes but he didn't believe himself to be human and so his selfishness must be punished and atoned for.

Kiritsugu's and Archer's practical application of ideal in actuality has nothing to do with punishing evil. It is precisely because of this is the reason why the ideal is fair and just in the first place. They are not judging evil but simply saving as many as possible.

You are right that Kiritsugu and Shirou are different but I don't think it's because of the ideal. Shirou's and Kiritsugu's ideal are in essence the same ideal, Kiritsugu also originally wanted to save everyone but it was a childish ideal that could not be achieved which he learnt the hard way. Shirou is the same it's just that Fate Shirou and early UBW shirou had not yet learnt the problems with their ideal. The reason why Shirou is different to Kiritsugu was that Kiritsugu simply wanted to save people and make people happy but for Shirou the ideal was simply a path towards Shirou's ultimate goal, he simply wanted to live a selfless life that was of benefit to others ever since that fire that was all he ever wanted. In UBW he discovers the real reason he wants to live such a life because he finds it beautiful and that there was no way that such way of life could be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
First of all, Sakura did not kill anyone who was not attacking her. This has been stated in the game that they acknowledge that she is blameless but was also a threat. Like how you cannot place blame on a soldier who had been turned into a cyborg against his will and made to kill people. There is no easy cut and dry answer here, but to make things easier, people would say that Sakura would be at fault, because saying that a vague "All Evils of this World" is the culprit doesn't have a solid person to balance on the scale, because it cannot contemplate its actions.

Secondly, this doesn't fix the root problem, which is the Holy Grail itself, which, had certain people been more attentive, would have been the logical place to go to. Dismantling the magic circle would have solved a great deal of problems in one go. All killing Sakura does is take care of one issue, and as I said before, proper communication would have worked wonders. Ilya knew where the Great Holy Grail was, Rin had an idea, Ilya knew who the shadow and the other Holy Grail was before Rin and Shirou. People just didn't think on the situation enough.

A great deal of issues would have been resolved,so honestly, I don't blame Shirou at all for not choosing the expedient route. In my opinion, that would have been the foolish choice, because at the end, they would have sacrificed her for nothing but a temporary destruction of one, possibly two dangers. It would be a waste, and neglecting his true desire.



All I have to say to that is, where does it end?
Temporary solution for one maybe two dangers? Hundreds of people died in Fugyuki or did you miss that part. Sakura didn't just simply kill the perverts that came to her she engulfed a large proportion of the town filled with purely innocent bystanders. Killing Sakura would have actually have completely solved the problem as after that all that would be needed to be done would to destruction of the holy grail like in the Fate route. Sakura was their only real opposition and her link to Avenger was the main problem.

The fact Sakura could have been saved without any sacrifice's was something that was compleyely out of Shirou's control. Sure you could blame Rin or Ilya but in the end they did not realise the problem and should simply be put down as bad luck (or to be precise as something Nasu simply didn't want to happen).

I think I need to iterate this again but Shirou does not "judge" people had he killed her he would not of judged her as that is not how the ideal works. Sakura was a harm to the happiness of others and would need to be removed. It did not take into account whether Sakura was consciously killing people or not. It does not judge anyone

"Where does it end?" That question goes both ways, would Shirou be willing to destroy all of humanity in order to save Sakura? Just how far would he be willing to go in order to save her. This goes for both paths, but the fundamental reason is the reason for one is selfish and the reason for the other is selfless. Not matter how far Shirou went or what happened to him he always knew what he was doing was not wrong. The opposite is true for HF. That is the fundamental difference between the two.
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Old 2010-10-23, 16:02   Link #3148
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I wish I could download all of those videos. That YouTube page is such a mess and they are so small too.

I just watched the end of Fate, when Gil and Kirei are defeated...I got goosebumps.
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Old 2010-10-23, 16:15   Link #3149
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I think the apt way to say it is that in HF he took the easier route for his peace of mind. To be the true idealist he was seeking to be in Fate in particular, is to choose the hardest road. He did what every other apathetic and cynical person does in life and gives up on any sort of idealism. To me, this idealism is what I find to like about Shirou as a character, because really, most of us are too weak to put themselves on that path.
Definietly not. If anything Shirou always took the hardest path in every route. Killing Sakura would be an easy and fast solution but he can't...or to be correct he won't do that. See the rest of my post.
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Actually I'd like to point this is slightly wrong and missing the point by quite a bit. Saving people made him content, he died with a smile on his face. Saving Sakura had very little to do with his happiness, being with Rin or Saber would have made him equally as happy as being with Sakura hence why the ideal had nothing to do with happiness. The reason he was unhappy was because of guilt the reason why he truly followed the ideal was because he believed it to be beautiful. Shirou's guilt and his ideal are mutually exclusive. He can deal with his guilt, be happy and still follow his ideal as shown by UBW.

Anyway people saying that Shirou's ideal and his choice to save Sakura as being the same are quite blatantly missing the point. Saving Sakura is furthest you can get from shirou's ideal, the absolute furthest. Shirou wants to save as many people as possible in order to reduce the likeliness of the events that occured 10 years from happening again. He can't save everyone so he selflessly saves as many people as possible. HF Shirou actively produces fires like those that happened 10 years ago for selfish reasons, not only is their actions oposite their reasons for doing it are also opposite. If UBW or Fate Shirou met HF Shirou they would try to kill him as he is precisely the anti-thesis to their ideal. They are in no way the same. How would anyone believe they are following the same ideal, UBW and Fate revolve around selflessness, HF revolves around selfishness it's about as different as good and evil.
Indeed, it doesn't matter much if it's Saber, Rin or Sakura. He can love either of the three. About that's the only thing I agree with you since the situation Shirou and Sakura was what really mattered.

Now, on the rest...To be polite you have the wrong idea. Shirou's own ideal isn't about saving as much as possible, that's Kiritsugu's. Recklessly and unconditionally saving people was Shirou's way to redeem himself from the guilt 10 years ago. He wanted to save people to experience the same happiness Kiritsugu felt back when saved Shirou. Shirou resolved his guilt by UBW? Not at all. He didn't really mention it. If anything he took on Archer's burden and said "fuck no" to giving up on his ideal. As I said if Shirou has to choose between the easy and the hard route he chooses the later. He doesn't give up if some kind of huddle pops up all of sudden. If he bumps into an obstacle he doesn't stop but go right through it with renewed force.

Now back to UBW, he admits that his ideal would kill him but he doesn't care. And that's why I find it wrong. Yes, his ideal is rather admirable...from distance or as a complete stranger. But imagine yourself in Rin's shoes. No, just see what he did in UBW. He got into fights he shouldn't all the time. "saving" Saber from the BA explosion(she didn't need it), ran out of hiding after Gil killed Illya(stupid and needless), Fighting Gil alone instead with Saber etc... You see the schematic. Shirou runs out alone to face his foe. It's like he has a death wish. He actively refused the assistance of others and was damn stubborn about fighting anyone he saw as evil. And now back to Rin, imagine as a crazy boy risks his life over and over again for any random reason. She(and anyone else close to Shirou) would rightfully feel dead-worried of him. But he brushes them off like he's trying to isolate himself. He selfishly want to fight every battle himself, for his own ideals. Can you really call it healthy? Rin, Archer or even UBW Shirou certainly not. They all admitted that this ideal is crazy.

Ok, Heaven's Feel. I am not Mike so I won't start explaining how and why Sakura was blameless. Some people just want a clear villain(or scapegoat) because they can't understand the world is never just white and black. You make it look like Shirou was a villain there while he certainly not. He had no way to save those people. Killing Sakura may prevented some further deaths, I guess that's your point. On a different look though he would've killed an innocent person who just happened to be used for evil deeds. Doesn't it the act of villain? Yeah, you can't sugarcoat things with the likes of "greater good". It would be still a coldblooded murder of an innocent girl. In objective view it may have some gain but people are damn subjective. To add Sakura was someone close to him, someone he loved. Can you do that? I am certain you can't if you have a soul. See how the Mind of Steel scenario turned out. To add Shirou had no idea what's going on in about the whole time.

Yeah, back to the ideals. Shirou borrowed Kiritsugu's ideal of saving everyone(or at least as many as possible). After facing his guilt from 10 years back, he realized his original ideal. He didn't want to just protect people as numbers. What he really wished for just save people. He never ever wanted anyone to cry around him. He also realized that it isn't just about him. In a sense he became actually less selfish. He was willing to co-operate with Kirei, ask for Rider's help and even let Rin fight alone. He learned to trust people and notice when he needs help. I can say he grew up. He developed a more healthy character who can actually care for himself. No, he won't cause fires just to save Sakura. His sense of justice didn't change much. He fights evil whenever it needed but he considers his own and his friends safety. At the end of HF, Shirou learned to be contempt with his life. That's how I view it.
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Old 2010-10-24, 02:46   Link #3150
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Definietly not. If anything Shirou always took the hardest path in every route. Killing Sakura would be an easy and fast solution but he can't...or to be correct he won't do that. See the rest of my post.


Indeed, it doesn't matter much if it's Saber, Rin or Sakura. He can love either of the three. About that's the only thing I agree with you since the situation Shirou and Sakura was what really mattered.

Now, on the rest...To be polite you have the wrong idea. Shirou's own ideal isn't about saving as much as possible, that's Kiritsugu's. Recklessly and unconditionally saving people was Shirou's way to redeem himself from the guilt 10 years ago. He wanted to save people to experience the same happiness Kiritsugu felt back when saved Shirou. Shirou resolved his guilt by UBW? Not at all. He didn't really mention it. If anything he took on Archer's burden and said "fuck no" to giving up on his ideal. As I said if Shirou has to choose between the easy and the hard route he chooses the later. He doesn't give up if some kind of huddle pops up all of sudden. If he bumps into an obstacle he doesn't stop but go right through it with renewed force.

Now back to UBW, he admits that his ideal would kill him but he doesn't care. And that's why I find it wrong. Yes, his ideal is rather admirable...from distance or as a complete stranger. But imagine yourself in Rin's shoes. No, just see what he did in UBW. He got into fights he shouldn't all the time. "saving" Saber from the BA explosion(she didn't need it), ran out of hiding after Gil killed Illya(stupid and needless), Fighting Gil alone instead with Saber etc... You see the schematic. Shirou runs out alone to face his foe. It's like he has a death wish. He actively refused the assistance of others and was damn stubborn about fighting anyone he saw as evil. And now back to Rin, imagine as a crazy boy risks his life over and over again for any random reason. She(and anyone else close to Shirou) would rightfully feel dead-worried of him. But he brushes them off like he's trying to isolate himself. He selfishly want to fight every battle himself, for his own ideals. Can you really call it healthy? Rin, Archer or even UBW Shirou certainly not. They all admitted that this ideal is crazy.

Ok, Heaven's Feel. I am not Mike so I won't start explaining how and why Sakura was blameless. Some people just want a clear villain(or scapegoat) because they can't understand the world is never just white and black. You make it look like Shirou was a villain there while he certainly not. He had no way to save those people. Killing Sakura may prevented some further deaths, I guess that's your point. On a different look though he would've killed an innocent person who just happened to be used for evil deeds. Doesn't it the act of villain? Yeah, you can't sugarcoat things with the likes of "greater good". It would be still a coldblooded murder of an innocent girl. In objective view it may have some gain but people are damn subjective. To add Sakura was someone close to him, someone he loved. Can you do that? I am certain you can't if you have a soul. See how the Mind of Steel scenario turned out. To add Shirou had no idea what's going on in about the whole time.

Yeah, back to the ideals. Shirou borrowed Kiritsugu's ideal of saving everyone(or at least as many as possible). After facing his guilt from 10 years back, he realized his original ideal. He didn't want to just protect people as numbers. What he really wished for just save people. He never ever wanted anyone to cry around him. He also realized that it isn't just about him. In a sense he became actually less selfish. He was willing to co-operate with Kirei, ask for Rider's help and even let Rin fight alone. He learned to trust people and notice when he needs help. I can say he grew up. He developed a more healthy character who can actually care for himself. No, he won't cause fires just to save Sakura. His sense of justice didn't change much. He fights evil whenever it needed but he considers his own and his friends safety. At the end of HF, Shirou learned to be contempt with his life. That's how I view it.
He WILL cause fires to save Sakura that was blatantly made obvious during the game, that why he had to abandon the ideal in the first place, it's why he said he had betrayed himself as would have to end up causing the very things he sought to prevent, it's why he couldn't look down upon Kirei because he was no better than him. Sure he had morality but it was superceeded by his want to save Sakura hence why when it comes between Sakura or hundreds, thousands, millions or even perhaps the entire human race he would choose her.

TBF I personally consider the death of thousands of innocents worse than that of one. Neither are easy choices but imagine the unhappiness and grief caused by one death and multiply it by thousands. Having the weight of thousands of deaths on your conscious will be just as bad if not worse than the life of that little girl. It is precisely these types of choices are what many soldiers have to face.

Anyway in all 3 routes he learns to attempt the help of others so he actually becomes less selfish in all of them not just in HF.

In the end we'll just end up going round in circles so I'm going to end thid discussion. But I leave you with this. Do you honestly believe it's right to sacrifice the life millions, billions or even the entire human race for the sake of a girl close to you? I don't and I think that's true for the majority of people because if you then you have no sense of morality.
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Old 2010-10-24, 09:55   Link #3151
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Again, I think you are trying to villainize HF Shirou too much here. He will not cause fires to save Sakura. He is more likely to put some thought into a decision before taking it out. Again, he is not just on Sakura's side, he still loves people. He is just more likely to defend Sakura (or his loved ones) than making a needless sacrifice. This makes him not so different from the other Shirous.
Quote:
Kiritsugu's and Archer's practical application of ideal in actuality has nothing to do with punishing evil. It is precisely because of this is the reason why the ideal is fair and just in the first place. They are not judging evil but simply saving as many as possible.
No it is not fair, and it is not just. Because as Archer explains it, it is a calm, rational numbers game, that does not take into account things on a case by case basis. So you can call it unfairly fair, but it is not totally fair.

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Temporary solution for one maybe two dangers? Hundreds of people died in Fugyuki or did you miss that part. Sakura didn't just simply kill the perverts that came to her she engulfed a large proportion of the town filled with purely innocent bystanders. Killing Sakura would have actually have completely solved the problem as after that all that would be needed to be done would to destruction of the holy grail like in the Fate route. Sakura was their only real opposition and her link to Avenger was the main problem.

The fact Sakura could have been saved without any sacrifice's was something that was compleyely out of Shirou's control. Sure you could blame Rin or Ilya but in the end they did not realise the problem and should simply be put down as bad luck (or to be precise as something Nasu simply didn't want to happen).
It is a temporary solution, but at the end of this we might just have to agree to disagree here. because I could see that it was a rather stupid decision to take rashly to kill her without proper information. Many people I have argued with take Kotomine's words too literally. He talks a good game, but I will never be convinced that he wasn't hiding something very important, and that Rin didn't think nearly hard enough (which is strange given she is lauded for her genius).

Also, bad luck? Saying that you murdered a suffering person is bad luck to you? Well, then the townpeople getting eaten by Angra Mainyu is bad luck as well, because Sakura couldn't tell it to stop and wasn't even aware of it. But, as willy said, people need a scapegoat to take on the blame here. You acknowledge that there was a better way to handle it, and even in the face of overwhelming evidence throughout the route that this could be brought to a better conclusion, and all you can say that it was "bad luck"? I'll throw those words back at you in the face of the victims.

Quote:
"Where does it end?" That question goes both ways, would Shirou be willing to destroy all of humanity in order to save Sakura? Just how far would he be willing to go in order to save her. This goes for both paths, but the fundamental reason is the reason for one is selfish and the reason for the other is selfless. Not matter how far Shirou went or what happened to him he always knew what he was doing was not wrong. The opposite is true for HF. That is the fundamental difference between the two.
Then we have reached an impasse, because neither of us is going to budge on this. If he was so sure, then why did it take him having to kill his emotions in one scene to go through with it? Why in the second attempt, was he crying his eyes out and even if it clashed with his ideal, it made him sick to his stomach to go through with it? Obviously, there is something wrong here.
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Old 2010-10-24, 12:53   Link #3152
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I just watched Last Episode.

Wow. It almost makes me forgive the fact that their relationship started off in the most BS way possible.
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Old 2010-10-24, 14:12   Link #3153
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I think this is subject to interpretation, but what he called revising in HF I call abandoning. He's putting the lives of many at risk for one life. I can't see how you're not breaking your ideal anymore than that.
Because his ideal was never to kill one to save many. He wanted to save people, and Sakura is a person. In Fate and UBW, he saves/spares the people in front of him (Shinji, for instance, who is a potential future danger), and HF was no different, at least initially.

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I think the apt way to say it is that in HF he took the easier route for his peace of mind. To be the true idealist he was seeking to be in Fate in particular, is to choose the hardest road. He did what every other apathetic and cynical person does in life and gives up on any sort of idealism. To me, this idealism is what I find to like about Shirou as a character, because really, most of us are too weak to put themselves on that path.
Except that to kill Sakura at the first sign of her being a danger is the "easy road". The "hard road" was to try to save everyone, including her, and that's what he did. True, he couldn't do it, but he did try.

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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
Admirable but extremely dodgy. Sure he was throwing away himself for her and pretty much sacrificed a large part of his being to be with her, but he did this for the closest person to him and sacrificed hundreds of peoples lives people who more than likely equally had the right to be saved. Why did Sakura live but hundreds die, because she was close to him... tell that to their grieving families.
Except that he never sacrificed anyone. It's not like he was going out and feeding people to her, after all, and he had no idea that she was killing anyone until near the end.

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Shirou's ideal may not be perfect but it's far, far superior morally to what he did for Sakura.
Bullshit. It is not moral to murder an innocent person in cold blood because of what they might do.

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Originally Posted by Tenchi Hou Take View Post
For starters trying to save Sakura had nothing to do with breaking Shirou's ideal, however what Shirou should have done if he was going to try to save her was to absolutely make sure Sakura did not kill anyone and if she did make sure the person she killed was Shirou and that he would in turn make sure she died during or directly after she killed him. This was stated in the game.
And that is what he did do. However, she wasn't acting as he thought she would be acting, so he was unable to prevent her killing people like he thought he could.

Quote:
Anyway it is foolish to attempt to save everyone, why because it's greedy, those who try to over shoot themselves end up with nothing. It is simply an ideal to strive towards because the closer you get the more people will be happy but it will never be achieved.
And it is foolish to assume that you have the right to decide who should and should not be saved like MoS Shirou or Kiritsugu do.

Quote:
The problem with HF is that he is trying to be God. No human has the right to determine whether another human deserves to live or die. I personally can not decide that you should die because you've killed 10 people when I myself am not blameless.
Lol, what? That is exactly what MoS Shirou does in deciding that Sakura should be killed. HF Shirou makes no such decision. At no point does he decide to kill someone else to save Sakura (well, Kotomine, perhaps, but I think that is pretty easy to defend...).

Quote:
Why did you state that you didn't like Sakura, that has nothing to do with this discussion, I actually like Sakura's character but that has nothing to do with why I consider what HF Shirou did to be wrong.
To avoid accusations of pro-Sakura bias, probably....
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Old 2010-10-24, 15:28   Link #3154
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I just watched Last Episode.

Wow. It almost makes me forgive the fact that their relationship started off in the most BS way possible.
On the otherhand, it's kind of a Broken Aesop now. Wasn't the whole point of Fate that it was NOT okay to go back to the past to try and fix things?

NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! TVTROPES HAS RUINED MY LIIIIIIIIIIIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 2010-10-24, 16:06   Link #3155
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On the otherhand, it's kind of a Broken Aesop now. Wasn't the whole point of Fate that it was NOT okay to go back to the past to try and fix things?

NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! TVTROPES HAS RUINED MY LIIIIIIIIIIIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Errm... I don't see the relevance. They kept pursuing their ideals, never looking back, and they were finally rewarded in Avalon... What does that have to do with going back to the past?

On another note, the writing during Last Episode is so confusing, I had to read it at least 4 times before I understood what was going on.
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Old 2010-10-24, 16:15   Link #3156
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Since when does Fate have anything to do with time travel? It was more about accepting life and not trying to fix it.
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Old 2010-10-25, 02:19   Link #3157
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OOOOOOOHHHHH. It's in Avalon! That makes a lot more sense. >.<
(Because I was wondering how Saber could've kept on living afterwards)
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Old 2010-10-25, 06:04   Link #3158
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hey is the ending of fate stay night in PS2 canon??
as far as I know Shirou and Saber end up in there
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Old 2010-10-25, 06:51   Link #3159
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Are you refferring to Last Episode? Well Nasu wrote it so I don't see why not. It just wasn't in the original Visual novel, but it doesn't contradict anything in the Fate route.
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Old 2010-10-25, 10:27   Link #3160
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It is considered canon but I do not take it as such. To me, it was added for the fans.
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