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Old 2010-10-28, 15:39   Link #3181
Haak
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Yeah, I'm just going to go ahead and believe A Wizard Did It, then. True both figuratively and possibly literally.
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Old 2010-10-29, 10:25   Link #3182
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Hm, it can be quite possible. This is Merlin,the top Deus est Machina kind of mage in about every fiction that mentions him. Good point.

About the True Magic: the real magic is something that can't be explained by the modern theories of magecraft. They are powers that should be impossible by their current knowledge. For example real instantaneous teleportation, resurrection of the dead, traveling in time, reaching alternate dimensions, breaking the laws of energy conversation etc...

The True Magic is a miracle since it doesn't follow the regular laws of magecraft. Also each True Magic has strong connection with Akasha, the origin. Since the Grail is an incomplete Heavens Feel it can do things akin to a miracle and may even grant wishes. The wishgranting is closely related to reaching Akasha and thus using god-like power.

I hope that was satisfying enough.
You forgot the part where True Magic means deus ex machina.
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Old 2010-10-29, 10:31   Link #3183
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You forgot the part where True Magic means deus ex machina.
Well, yes that's true, but we don't like to say that part out loud.
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Old 2010-10-29, 11:04   Link #3184
Haak
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Hey let's be fair. Even something as game breaking as 'True magic' can avoid feeling contrived if it's set up properly...
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Old 2010-10-29, 11:05   Link #3185
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Hey let's be fair. Even something as game breaking as 'True magic' can avoid feeling contrived if it's set up properly...
And it really was. Everything is explained, everything. Nasu explains so much you need an explanation to his explanation.
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Old 2010-11-04, 20:47   Link #3186
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I have a question. According to the game you need prana to maintain a RM from the corrective impulses of the World. If so, would archer be able to maintain his RM indefinitely outside Gaia's sphere of influence;unless Akasha or other higher entities tries to crush it.
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Old 2010-11-04, 20:52   Link #3187
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I... think that as a Counter Guardian, Archer's RM gets an 'exemption' from the prana cost. Like, he's a part of the world, so his version of UBW is as well, and the world doesn't try to crush it like it does a normal Reality Marble.

I'm not sure about this, though, I'll openly admit that, so don't take it as gospel.
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Old 2010-11-04, 21:21   Link #3188
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I... think that as a Counter Guardian, Archer's RM gets an 'exemption' from the prana cost. Like, he's a part of the world, so his version of UBW is as well, and the world doesn't try to crush it like it does a normal Reality Marble.

I'm not sure about this, though, I'll openly admit that, so don't take it as gospel.
Yeah, this is rubbish. For a start, Archer is contracted with Alaya (the spirit of humanity), not Gaia (the spirit of the world). He has to pay a prana cost to keep UBW up but, since his prana source is Rin, that's not too much of an issue (plus, he only uses it once in the entire game, and that's a fairly brief usage).
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Old 2010-11-04, 21:24   Link #3189
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Yeah, this is rubbish. For a start, Archer is contracted with Alaya (the spirit of humanity), not Gaia (the spirit of the world). He has to pay a prana cost to keep UBW up but, since his prana source is Rin, that's not too much of an issue (plus, he only uses it once in the entire game, and that's a fairly brief usage).
If I remember right, it's that in the Grail War Archer gets his source of mana from Rin, it's just that he's not as powerful as the other Servants in terms of stats, so he has to make up for it with his speed and experience. I know I read that somewhere before, but don't quote me on it.
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Old 2010-11-04, 22:26   Link #3190
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Yeah, this is rubbish. For a start, Archer is contracted with Alaya (the spirit of humanity), not Gaia (the spirit of the world). He has to pay a prana cost to keep UBW up but, since his prana source is Rin, that's not too much of an issue (plus, he only uses it once in the entire game, and that's a fairly brief usage).
Okay, yeah, I realized where I read that; it's on UBW's entry in the Type-Moon wiki. It says 'Emiya has no penalties from the world while utilizing his version of Unlimited Blade Works' but doesn't go into more detail.

And besides, the only time he used the actual Reality Marble he didn't have a Master, remember. He'd already lost his contract with Rin and killed Caster.
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Old 2010-11-04, 23:14   Link #3191
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Okay, yeah, I realized where I read that; it's on UBW's entry in the Type-Moon wiki. It says 'Emiya has no penalties from the world while utilizing his version of Unlimited Blade Works' but doesn't go into more detail.
So, it was an unsubstantiated and vague assertion that you got from the TM wiki?

Yeah, I think we can safely dismiss this one....

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And besides, the only time he used the actual Reality Marble he didn't have a Master, remember. He'd already lost his contract with Rin and killed Caster.
Yeah, but he was still had a full 'tank' of prana at that point, most likely, since he had been connected to Caster and Rin. Plus, he didn't use it for that long.
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Old 2010-11-08, 07:37   Link #3192
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Okay, first of all, since I forgot to mention this earlier, I can't help but appreciate the way Nasu made Shirou out to be some sort of machine in the narrative. The static noise we get when Shirou feels fucked up. The glass cracking we get when Shirou tries to use Archers arm and breaks his mind. The magic circuits, and how it looks like wires with electricity running through. The way his mind is just switched off like a TV in some of the bad endings. I just wanted to make that point.

Anyway, moving on I can't help but feel a bit confused by Shirou's UBW ideology. Namely the whole 'saving as many people as possible' thing. It's pretty vague really and could be interpreted in all manor of ways. Here's some examples of how it's applied in the UBW and Fate route:
1) Shirou objected to Archer letting Caster go because she killed many people and would go on killing more, despite the fact that it would get him to the Holy Grail. It seems here he doesn't believe the ends justify the means.
2) Shirou is willing to give up his command spells to save Taiga when Caster threatens to kill her. It seems he doesn't wish to have blood on his hands if that's what it takes to gain the holy grail.
3) Shirou is willing to try his ultimate best to save Ilya right in front of him when he realises he has no chance and would've just gotten himself killed. Again, he'd rather give up his life to save someone than to gain the holy grail.
4) Shirou is willing to kill someone if he is a genuine threat to others (Shinji) but would rather find a peaceful alternative.

What I can see here it doesn't seem as if choosing to save Sakura the first time is in anyway contradictory to his UBW ideal. So why, in the UBW route, is Shirou's Ideal called 'borrowed from Kiritsugu's when it seems as if Kiritsugu's ideal is a lot colder (following Kiritsugu's ideal would involve killing Sakura). It seems the extent to which is is willing to find a peaceful alternative is rather vague and ill-defined. This is my problem.
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Old 2010-11-08, 08:58   Link #3193
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That's what I am telling like for a year. Shirou never wanted to kill people, especially not someone close to him. Shirou in HF isn't that different, he didn't throw away his ideal and became a selfish murderer like some people like to make him out to be. He definietly changed but more like a postitive way. He realized his own worth as a person. Otherwise he's still the same.

Back to your question: Shirou never exactly adopted Kiritsugu's real ideal. Well, maybe MoS Shirou did. He took in the pure hero of justice kind of ideal what Kiritsugu tried to chase. That's why Archer ends up broken when he's forced to be an Executor as CG. That's not something Shirou wants.He's idealistic defender of justice. For him, people always deserve a second chance. Perhaps he's not as oblivious to ignore the evil deeds of someone. Evil must repent or to be punished. Shirou fights evil in order to preserve the order and he yearns for the happiness of everyone. Indeed, that's damn idealistic but Shirou takes it in such a serious way that it becomes admirable. UBW and Fate Shirou just don't realize or choose to not realize the real reason behind their actions. That's the only way they are different from HF Shirou
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Old 2010-11-08, 09:07   Link #3194
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Anyway, moving on I can't help but feel a bit confused by Shirou's UBW ideology. Namely the whole 'saving as many people as possible' thing. It's pretty vague really and could be interpreted in all manor of ways. Here's some examples of how it's applied in the UBW and Fate route:
1) Shirou objected to Archer letting Caster go because she killed many people and would go on killing more, despite the fact that it would get him to the Holy Grail. It seems here he doesn't believe the ends justify the means.
2) Shirou is willing to give up his command spells to save Taiga when Caster threatens to kill her. It seems he doesn't wish to have blood on his hands if that's what it takes to gain the holy grail.
3) Shirou is willing to try his ultimate best to save Ilya right in front of him when he realises he has no chance and would've just gotten himself killed. Again, he'd rather give up his life to save someone than to gain the holy grail.
4) Shirou is willing to kill someone if he is a genuine threat to others (Shinji) but would rather find a peaceful alternative.

What I can see here it doesn't seem as if choosing to save Sakura the first time is in anyway contradictory to his UBW ideal. So why, in the UBW route, is Shirou's Ideal called 'borrowed from Kiritsugu's when it seems as if Kiritsugu's ideal is a lot colder (following Kiritsugu's ideal would involve killing Sakura). It seems the extent to which is is willing to find a peaceful alternative is rather vague and ill-defined. This is my problem.
Well, there is a distinction between Shirou's ideal, Kiritsugu's ideal and Shirou's true wish. Kiritsugu's ideal is to save as many as possible, even if that means killing innocents (and even if those people are entirely faceless), whereas Shirou wishes to save everyone. However, Kiritsugu's ideal is one possible evolution of Shirou's (impossible to achieve) ideal and, indeed, Kiritsugu once held the same ideal that Shirou now holds, and passed it on to Shirou in that way (he never told Shirou to kill some to save others, because he himself became sick of that ideal after seeing what it caused in Fate/Zero).

Complicating that is Shirou's true wish, which is likely something that he would follow even if he hadn't met Kiritsugu. As Rin says in UBW (about Archer), all Shirou truly wants to do is make people happy, and see them smile. He is truly selfless and has no sense of self-worth, and thus can only obtain joy through the happiness of others. Archer, unfortunately, only realised this too late, after he had made an irrevokable decision to follow Kiritsugu's ideal and accept the contract with the world. Hence why Archer is so broken, because all he ever gets to see is death and sadness. If he truly wanted to follow Kiritsugu's ideal, and was happy doing it, then UBW wouldn't have happened, because Archer would be quite happy with the fact that he was saving people (a Counter-Guardian is basically the ultimate expression of Kiritsugu's ideal), even if he never got to see it and spent all his time murdering innocents.

As for the MoS decision, you're right that choosing to save Sakura isn't truly in conflict with Shirou's ideal. However, Shirou is self-depreciating, and sees it as being a selfish act (which, to some extent, it is, I suppose) to put the girl he loves above faceless masses even though, if it had been some random innocent girl, he'd have likely done just the same (indeed, he passes up several opportunities to stop the bad guys in order to avoid bloodshed, like you stated in your post). In fact, had it been some random innocent girl, he'd have probably thought less bad about it, because he would have seen it as only natural to attempt to save this poor, innocent girl who had, as yet, done nothing wrong, rather than as him selfishly putting the people he loves first.

Regarding what you posted in the Zero thread, this is why MoS couldn't just go like UBW. UBW Shirou still follows the un-corrupted form of Kiritsugu's ideal, which Archer still respects, even if he knows it is impossible to implement in reality, because it is fully compatible with what Shirou truly wants (HF Shirou's approach is an alternate degredation of that ideal, and one which is far more suited to Shirou's personality). What Archer objects to is the degraded form, which he ended up following and which has led him into a hellish life. UBW Shirou convinces Archer that, even if the corrupted ideal is broken, the original form is worth fighting for, and Rin will (hopefully) stop Shirou from falling into the same trap as Archer fell into. MoS Shirou has already taken the degraded form to heart, and thus Archer would have no compunction about killing him at the first opportunity. That, coupled with the fact that Rin would be on his side and that MoS Shirou is less powerful than UBW Shirou, means that a MoS Archer vs Shirou fight would only have one possible outcome.
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Old 2010-11-08, 10:42   Link #3195
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Well, there is a distinction between Shirou's ideal, Kiritsugu's ideal and Shirou's true wish. Kiritsugu's ideal is to save as many as possible, even if that means killing innocents (and even if those people are entirely faceless), whereas Shirou wishes to save everyone. However, Kiritsugu's ideal is one possible evolution of Shirou's (impossible to achieve) ideal and, indeed, Kiritsugu once held the same ideal that Shirou now holds, and passed it on to Shirou in that way (he never told Shirou to kill some to save others, because he himself became sick of that ideal after seeing what it caused in Fate/Zero).

Complicating that is Shirou's true wish, which is likely something that he would follow even if he hadn't met Kiritsugu. As Rin says in UBW (about Archer), all Shirou truly wants to do is make people happy, and see them smile. He is truly selfless and has no sense of self-worth, and thus can only obtain joy through the happiness of others. Archer, unfortunately, only realised this too late, after he had made an irrevokable decision to follow Kiritsugu's ideal and accept the contract with the world. Hence why Archer is so broken, because all he ever gets to see is death and sadness. If he truly wanted to follow Kiritsugu's ideal, and was happy doing it, then UBW wouldn't have happened, because Archer would be quite happy with the fact that he was saving people (a Counter-Guardian is basically the ultimate expression of Kiritsugu's ideal), even if he never got to see it and spent all his time murdering innocents.

As for the MoS decision, you're right that choosing to save Sakura isn't truly in conflict with Shirou's ideal. However, Shirou is self-depreciating, and sees it as being a selfish act (which, to some extent, it is, I suppose) to put the girl he loves above faceless masses even though, if it had been some random innocent girl, he'd have likely done just the same (indeed, he passes up several opportunities to stop the bad guys in order to avoid bloodshed, like you stated in your post). In fact, had it been some random innocent girl, he'd have probably thought less bad about it, because he would have seen it as only natural to attempt to save this poor, innocent girl who had, as yet, done nothing wrong, rather than as him selfishly putting the people he loves first.

Regarding what you posted in the Zero thread, this is why MoS couldn't just go like UBW. UBW Shirou still follows the un-corrupted form of Kiritsugu's ideal, which Archer still respects, even if he knows it is impossible to implement in reality, because it is fully compatible with what Shirou truly wants (HF Shirou's approach is an alternate degredation of that ideal, and one which is far more suited to Shirou's personality). What Archer objects to is the degraded form, which he ended up following and which has led him into a hellish life. UBW Shirou convinces Archer that, even if the corrupted ideal is broken, the original form is worth fighting for, and Rin will (hopefully) stop Shirou from falling into the same trap as Archer fell into. MoS Shirou has already taken the degraded form to heart, and thus Archer would have no compunction about killing him at the first opportunity. That, coupled with the fact that Rin would be on his side and that MoS Shirou is less powerful than UBW Shirou, means that a MoS Archer vs Shirou fight would only have one possible outcome.
You know, now that you've explained it like that, I'm actually curious to see someone try their hand at a MoS!Shirou fic.
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Old 2010-11-08, 11:14   Link #3196
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You know, now that you've explained it like that, I'm actually curious to see someone try their hand at a MoS!Shirou fic.
Well, I'll have a go....

Kotomine trolls Shirou and Rin to breaking point, Shirou works with Gil to kill Rin and Archer, Shirou 'wins' the war along with Gil, only to be restrained and forced to watch as Gil summons the Grail to destroy humanity whilst Kotomine laughs. Kotomine then continues laughing as Shirou runs around the world desperately fighting to undo Gil's contamination. Eventually, Shirou makes a deal with the world like Archer did and becomes an even more broken version of him, who is summoned by Rin into another Grail War where he proceeds to knock some sense into her and get her to save her sister before her situation blows up in their faces.

The end.

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Old 2010-11-08, 12:19   Link #3197
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Thanks for the reply, Cherry Lover, it made a lot of sense. Now that I think about it, the difference in Shirou's ideal and Archer's ideal is also illustrated in their UBW reality marbles. Shirou's didn't have those wheel cogs in the background, indicating that his ideal is less machine-like.
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Old 2010-11-08, 12:33   Link #3198
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Whichever why you look at it for Kirei keeping Sakura alive was the better option making Shirou's choice play right into his hands. Kirei wants grief and for avenger to be born and keeping Sakura is the best way. It had nothing to do with Rin and Shirou drowning in despair about not being possible to save Sakura they drowned in despair anyway. Shirou completely believed that when he made the promise to Sakura to see the sakura bloom that it would never happen but made the promise anyway. He had to slowly kill himself essentially destroying any dreams he had of them being happy together with her in order to save her while knowing that his actions could result in the destruction of mankind if he failed. Then you have the hundreds of families mourning over the loss of their loved ones killed by Sakura. Compare that to the death's of Sakura and Rin and Shirou turning his mind to steel and you'll see the levels of grief aren't even comparable. Kirei was right the longer sakura lived unless a solution was quickly made the more grief she caused.

Sure there are many other ways but some of them can only be given in hindsight which a beautiful thing which likely even you probably wouldn't have thought of if you had the amount of information they had and other solutions require an equal amount of sacrifice as those made during the path that was made. Let's take your "dollified aproach" where exactly do you expect Ilya to gain the prana to complete such a task? Oh yeah that's right she takes it from the holy grail after she had taken over Sakura's role as the container which requires 7 heroes in order to fill it up. Waiting for the 7 herioc spirits to be absorbed by Ilya would of required the same amount of sacrifice as the path they took not to mention using it may in fact kill her. The third magic is not as simple a task as you make it out to be.

Solving the problem isn't half as easy as your making it out to be especially if you have the life of a loved one on your mind which is extremely stressful and often stops you from choosing the logical path and have a pretty limited amount of information.

Anyway Sakura had everything to do with the avenger why do you think Kotomine called her his mother, sure he would of tryed to be born anyway but Sakura was Shirou's main obstacle to preventing it from being born. Without Sakura it more than likely became exponentially easier to win the holy grail war as Mind of Steel Shirou with no powers projection was pretty much assumed to win.

Anyway lol at the fact you think that being a fan of HF of not as anything to do with our arguement. It has nothing to do with it and it doesn't mean anything for your arguement nor mine. Stop stating it like it matters I could care less about it.
Well first, thanks for the patronizing comments....

Anyway:

Kotomine's thought process are all over the spectrum, we cannot be sure where exactly he gets the most lulz. I cite the last fight he had with Shirou, he's flip-flopping everywhere. Also, in this situation, to basically then call her life worthless (which is what you have essentially done) over something she is not even responsible for, is crazy. This is quite the hasty decision here.

Actually, were I in such a situation I would see many things that Rin and Shirou had not, and this is not just as as a player. I care not to go into everything at the moment, but there are several points in Heaven's Feel that could have been avoided had there been careful planning. You are making the same mistake as they would, and taking everything at face value. You paint HF Shirou as being irresponsible, however...to make such a decision like ending her life because you were too frazzled to think of a better way is rather foolish and irresponsible as well, don't you think?

Also as CL had said in the other thread, Ilya is able to move souls, so it is a viable option had more relaxed minds thought of it. Ilya herself would have known what to do as well, and she was practically the most neutral party there, so your argument about frazzled minds and me using information in hindsight is a moot point . Ilya had several ways to end this without killing her and making sure there were no more victims. Remember that dead end? She has exhibited powers that enable her to have some control over souls, since she was able to keep Shirou alive with just a head like CL pointed out. Rin performs freaking neurosurgery on Shinji while under duress in UBW. There was just flagrant irresponsibility here on the part of the people with superior abilities, so I do not blame Shirou for being hesitant to just off her. I'd actually like to see you talk your way out of that. I was not even making the argument for her to use the Third at all, and there is also no evidence that states she needs all the souls to use the Third, it is just stated to be "incomplete". But that is neither here nor there, my "doll plan" only required her to be able to move souls, and she can do that easily.

On your last point, Kotomine couldn't have cared one way or the other as long as AM was born, whether that be through Sakura or not, so he is actually more of the obstacle here, as he can pervert information that could relieve her of that burden. Also on Shirou "winning", I call unreliable narrator there.
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Old 2010-11-09, 11:28   Link #3199
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Thanks for the reply, Cherry Lover, it made a lot of sense. Now that I think about it, the difference in Shirou's ideal and Archer's ideal is also illustrated in their UBW reality marbles. Shirou's didn't have those wheel cogs in the background, indicating that his ideal is less machine-like.
Another way of looking at is seeing how things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive in themselves, it is how things are combined together that affects whether they are mutualistic or antagonistic in outcome.
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Old 2010-11-20, 21:06   Link #3200
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