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Old 2010-12-20, 07:25   Link #3281
Cherry_Lover
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Look, I'm not the one who came up with the story, Nasu did. Further, you have no evidence whatsoever for your assertion that Shirou's "feelings and experiences" were slightly altered depending on route (and, indeed, it totally contradicts the way the story is written, since it's possible to get most of the way onto the Sakura rotue and then stop at the end, and in the case of the Rin route, the choice that gets you onto it has notihng whatsoever to do with liking Rin (since you don't know who it is at that point)).

If you look at HF, it's clear that the point behind it is not that Shirou is developing feelings for Sakura, but that he is discovering them. Of course, you are right that having feelings for someone is not the same as actual romantic intimacy (which does indeed "develop" over the course of HF), but nevertheless the basic feelings that he has for Sakura (both the familial ones and the more erotic ones) are present at the start.

Now, you can argue that he has a sexual attraction to Rin prior to the game, too, but there's no connection between them beyond that. With Sakura, it's clear from how their relationship is portrayed in HF that the basis for a Shirou x Sakura relationship is already fully-formed, it's just that neither of them really have the will to pursue those (Shirou is desperately trying to repress any sexual attraction he has to her because he thinks it's "wrong", and Sakura is not pursuing him because she thinks she's "not worthy" and because she knows that doing so will endanger him). Of course, post-UBW (and possibly post-Fate) any residual feelings he may have for Sakura will be buried beneath the feelings he has for the heroine, but that doesn't change the fact that they were there (and, really, if Shirou getting with Rin post-HF is plausible, then Shirou getting with Sakura post-UBW certainly is).
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Old 2010-12-20, 09:07   Link #3282
Tenchi Hou Take
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Look, I'm not the one who came up with the story, Nasu did. Further, you have no evidence whatsoever for your assertion that Shirou's "feelings and experiences" were slightly altered depending on route (and, indeed, it totally contradicts the way the story is written, since it's possible to get most of the way onto the Sakura rotue and then stop at the end, and in the case of the Rin route, the choice that gets you onto it has notihng whatsoever to do with liking Rin (since you don't know who it is at that point)).

If you look at HF, it's clear that the point behind it is not that Shirou is developing feelings for Sakura, but that he is discovering them. Of course, you are right that having feelings for someone is not the same as actual romantic intimacy (which does indeed "develop" over the course of HF), but nevertheless the basic feelings that he has for Sakura (both the familial ones and the more erotic ones) are present at the start.

Now, you can argue that he has a sexual attraction to Rin prior to the game, too, but there's no connection between them beyond that. With Sakura, it's clear from how their relationship is portrayed in HF that the basis for a Shirou x Sakura relationship is already fully-formed, it's just that neither of them really have the will to pursue those (Shirou is desperately trying to repress any sexual attraction he has to her because he thinks it's "wrong", and Sakura is not pursuing him because she thinks she's "not worthy" and because she knows that doing so will endanger him). Of course, post-UBW (and possibly post-Fate) any residual feelings he may have for Sakura will be buried beneath the feelings he has for the heroine, but that doesn't change the fact that they were there (and, really, if Shirou getting with Rin post-HF is plausible, then Shirou getting with Sakura post-UBW certainly is).
Ok so you admit it's not love as to be quite frank that's just stupid. Anyway if you think about there was no major event that caused Shirou to fall in love with Rin he didn't find out there was something wrong with her and decide to save her like in the other two routes. The only real event is that he found out about the real her which sorta makes sense as it's heavily implied that he's the same as Rin in that he's happy for her existence. I mean heck. He finds herself wanting Rin to be happy and wonders if he's cheating

Point being that although there was no ground work there was instant chemistry hence why she plays an important part in all routes plus she is generally the one who looks out for Shirou's mental well being.
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Old 2010-12-20, 10:23   Link #3283
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Ok so you admit it's not love as to be quite frank that's just stupid. Anyway if you think about there was no major event that caused Shirou to fall in love with Rin he didn't find out there was something wrong with her and decide to save her like in the other two routes. The only real event is that he found out about the real her which sorta makes sense as it's heavily implied that he's the same as Rin in that he's happy for her existence. I mean heck. He finds herself wanting Rin to be happy and wonders if he's cheating

Point being that although there was no ground work there was instant chemistry hence why she plays an important part in all routes plus she is generally the one who looks out for Shirou's mental well being.
Actually it worked the same for Rin, he was in a perilous situation with her, spent more time with her, and therefore the feelings he had for her (respect, some attraction, and admiration) came to the surface given the circumstances. It just turned from "I want to protect you based on the fact I want to protect people" to "I want to protect you because I really like you, and it'd bother me greatly if you died". Which is pretty much the same for any girl he gets involved with, they are elevated from the "regular people" he wants to save to a solid priority.

He starts his feelings in flux, and they move between the attraction/admiration he feels for the girls to develop into something more over time. He hid his feelings for Sakura because he thought of them as not right to feel for a family member, and she is my friends sister ("There is no way I can go there" - Remember the boy is woefully conservative at the oddest times). Rin is the unapproachable school idol, and all the things that come with that, and he had his own misconceptions regarding her (which he clears up as he gets to know her) as well. Saber was a cute girl, but he also admired her strength.
He IS a one woman man, but feelings are difficult to pin down, and attraction can settle in any one of them. His heart isn't fickle, feelings are just that complicated. But whoever he does settle on, he goes full tilt for.
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Old 2010-12-20, 10:28   Link #3284
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Is anyone else having an intense case of déjà vu?
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Old 2010-12-20, 12:29   Link #3285
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Old 2010-12-20, 12:30   Link #3286
Tenchi Hou Take
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Actually it worked the same for Rin, he was in a perilous situation with her, spent more time with her, and therefore the feelings he had for her (respect, some attraction, and admiration) came to the surface given the circumstances. It just turned from "I want to protect you based on the fact I want to protect people" to "I want to protect you because I really like you, and it'd bother me greatly if you died". Which is pretty much the same for any girl he gets involved with, they are elevated from the "regular people" he wants to save to a solid priority.

He starts his feelings in flux, and they move between the attraction/admiration he feels for the girls to develop into something more over time. He hid his feelings for Sakura because he thought of them as not right to feel for a family member, and she is my friends sister ("There is no way I can go there" - Remember the boy is woefully conservative at the oddest times). Rin is the unapproachable school idol, and all the things that come with that, and he had his own misconceptions regarding her (which he clears up as he gets to know her) as well. Saber was a cute girl, but he also admired her strength.
He IS a one woman man, but feelings are difficult to pin down, and attraction can settle in any one of them. His heart isn't fickle, feelings are just that complicated. But whoever he does settle on, he goes full tilt for.
Complete missed my point. He wanted to mentally save Saber and Sakura he did not do that for Rin. He was also pretty much completely in love with her before Archers betrayal considering shortly afterwards he starts talking of his feelings pretty casually.
Anyway I never got a single hint that Shirou was troubled with his feelings. Sure he started to notice Sakura physically but so would any man and such a realization doesn't even hint at feelings notice during those times he only talks about her body. He's just not the type to ponder who he likes more generally something just happens
and he unknowingly falls in love with them. Attraction and admiration wasn't the reason he fell in love with any of them hence why he's attracted/admires all of them in all routes

Hence why he's a completely blank sheet up until the holy grail war his mind was preocupied with other things like. Making his ideal a reality honing his skills, helping those in need etc
He just did't have any feelings for any of them if he did knowing shirou's character it'd be blatantly obvious. When he fell in love with saber any initial feelings for Rin and Sakura were proven to be non existent. He gave up his "feelings" for sakura far too easily without a second thought for them even to be considered feelings. This is freaking Shirou we're talking about there's no way in hell that he could have fallen in love three different women and still be considered in love witch. He also had a genuine crush on Rin if he was in love this would not be the case considering once he has feelings for someone he doesn't have tfor anyone else and feels guilty when attracted to someone. I'm sorry but there's no way in hell that he could have been in love.

Last edited by Tenchi Hou Take; 2010-12-20 at 13:10.
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Old 2010-12-20, 12:59   Link #3287
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since it's possible to get most of the way onto the Sakura rotue and then stop at the end.
Elaborate, please.
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Old 2010-12-20, 13:18   Link #3288
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Well, you can pick some of the choices that lead you onto the Sakura route, and then not pick the last one.
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Old 2010-12-20, 13:23   Link #3289
Tenchi Hou Take
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Is it just me or is HF the least likely route probability wise. I mean you have to pick all sakura related choices miss one and your on ubw. Compare with the choice of letting saber strike archer or not and the chances of shirou picking all of the sakura related chances are mathematically exponentially lower
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Old 2010-12-20, 13:30   Link #3290
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Old 2010-12-20, 13:38   Link #3291
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Well, you can pick some of the choices that lead you onto the Sakura route, and then not pick the last one.
I don't see how that contradicts Shirou's feelings being different in each route. That's actually WHY I thought Shirou's feelings were different in each route. That and the Saber difference.
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Old 2010-12-20, 14:43   Link #3292
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Is it just me or is HF the least likely route probability wise. I mean you have to pick all sakura related choices miss one and your on ubw. Compare with the choice of letting saber strike archer or not and the chances of shirou picking all of the sakura related chances are mathematically exponentially lower
I simply saw all of that as a way to make the game aspect more challenging. Whether it is more likely in regards to the plot is irrelevant.
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Old 2010-12-20, 14:59   Link #3293
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Complete missed my point. He wanted to mentally save Saber and Sakura he did not do that for Rin. He was also pretty much completely in love with her before Archers betrayal considering shortly afterwards he starts talking of his feelings pretty casually.
Anyway I never got a single hint that Shirou was troubled with his feelings. Sure he started to notice Sakura physically but so would any man and such a realization doesn't even hint at feelings notice during those times he only talks about her body. He's just not the type to ponder who he likes more generally something just happens
and he unknowingly falls in love with them. Attraction and admiration wasn't the reason he fell in love with any of them hence why he's attracted/admires all of them in all routes

Hence why he's a completely blank sheet up until the holy grail war his mind was preocupied with other things like. Making his ideal a reality honing his skills, helping those in need etc
He just did't have any feelings for any of them if he did knowing shirou's character it'd be blatantly obvious. When he fell in love with saber any initial feelings for Rin and Sakura were proven to be non existent. He gave up his "feelings" for sakura far too easily without a second thought for them even to be considered feelings. This is freaking Shirou we're talking about there's no way in hell that he could have fallen in love three different women and still be considered in love witch. He also had a genuine crush on Rin if he was in love this would not be the case considering once he has feelings for someone he doesn't have tfor anyone else and feels guilty when attracted to someone. I'm sorry but there's no way in hell that he could have been in love.
And you've pretty much just proven that you breezed through the game on a flowchart and don't know what you're talking about. Whether through bias or lack of understanding, you're very resistant.

Feelings are more complicated than a mere like/do not like. He was attracted to them all at different points throughout the game. As Rin said, though he may have been a broken individual, but he still had feelings, a conviction for why he sought the ideal. He wasn't completely empty. He just purely respected the man who saved him, and thought of being the same for someone else. As a UBW supporter, I can't beleive that you didn't grasp that part of the route.

As for the girls, he blatantly shows interest in Sakura from a romantic standpoint in more than just HF, just like when he is talking to Sakura in HF he went on about how he admired Rin.

Also, in HF, when he starts to relaize his feelings, he goes back in his memories and remembers all the time he had spent with Sakura, and said, many times, how he did not realize how attracted he was to her (more than just physically, and how grateful he was she supported him after Kiritsugu's death). How he enjoyed cooking with her, how knew his habits and just clicked with him. He just refused to admit it.

Now as for Rin, she was the unapproachable school idol, someone to be admired from afar for him, like the other guys did. The Grail War was the pivotal point, because Rin herself did not seem to covet interpersonal relationships, and even kept 'close' friends at a distance. Without the Grail War, she very well would not have pursued that small flame of attraction. And if she didn't Shirou was unlikely to, as he is a rather shy fellow. Only with the Grail War did they both see the excuse to see the other's true face and come to realize their love. The feelings they had there were undeniable, but they both didn't pursue them. This was similar to Sakura's relationship with Shirou, where both parties found excuses not to pursue those feelings (Shirou's shyness, because hey, "this is the freaking idol of our school Tohsaka Rin, a person who rejects guys handily all the time!") or with Sakura ("I just can't lay hands on my friend's sister, I am a trusted senpai, so I can't take advantage of our relationship!")

Saber was the "girl who plopped down from the sky" situation. Someone who struck a chord in him in his moment of flux and took up residence in his heart. Simple as that. Or not so simple, as feelings aren't very simple.

This doesn't stop him from being a one woman man, nor does it mean that he is likely to cheat. Feelings are just more complicated than you care to see. And there are many levels to love. Frankly, I'm not going to have a "who was most truly loved by Shirou" argument. Love just isn't as cut and dry as you seem to think, imo.

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I simply saw all of that as a way to make the game aspect more challenging. Whether it is more likely in regards to the plot is irrelevant.
He's not right about that anyway. There are so many ways in HF to make up Sakura points it's not even funny, you can miss a couple.
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Old 2010-12-20, 15:01   Link #3294
Tenchi Hou Take
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I simply saw all of that as a way to make the game aspect more challenging. Whether it is more likely in regards to the plot is irrelevant.
Doesn't make it more challenging it makes it more convoluted. If you don't know how to get to heavens feel or even know that sakura is the heroine the your just randomly picking evey combination answer. Unless you actually want t do that it's just a convoluted grind. Otherwise you listen to what people said and just pick all sakura options. Neither of these require any conscious brain activity.
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Old 2010-12-20, 15:10   Link #3295
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Is it just me or is HF the least likely route probability wise. I mean you have to pick all sakura related choices miss one and your on ubw. Compare with the choice of letting saber strike archer or not and the chances of shirou picking all of the sakura related chances are mathematically exponentially lower
If you're talking about from a reader's standpoint, then yeah, especially without prior knowledge. But not in the story itself. Probability is not taking into account Shirou is already very good friends with Sakura prior to the game, and really, there's no reason why he wouldn't spend more time with her. Even in the face of servants.

Oh, but I guess Shirou is a robot and does things based on probability and not emotion. Because he does that so often.
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Old 2010-12-20, 15:15   Link #3296
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And yet she's told to buzz off for her own safety in the other two routes in order to keep her safe. I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to keep someone close to me OUT of the possible killzone, not put them inside of it.
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Old 2010-12-20, 15:25   Link #3297
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Is it just me or is HF the least likely route probability wise. I mean you have to pick all sakura related choices miss one and your on ubw. Compare with the choice of letting saber strike archer or not and the chances of shirou picking all of the sakura related chances are mathematically exponentially lower
Well, only if you assume that picking the Sakura-related options is equally likely as picking the alternatives, which doesn't necessarily have to be the case. Also, HF branches off first, so in order to get onto Fate or UBW (once HF is available), you first have to avoid going towards HF (which means answering at least one of the HF branch questions "wrongly"). Therefore, to get onto either of the first two routes actually requires two choices (one to avoid HF, and one to select Fate or UBW).

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I don't see how that contradicts Shirou's feelings being different in each route. That's actually WHY I thought Shirou's feelings were different in each route. That and the Saber difference.
So, then, at what point do his feelings "change"? When you make the last Sakura choice, and are locked into the HF route?

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And yet she's told to buzz off for her own safety in the other two routes in order to keep her safe. I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to keep someone close to me OUT of the possible killzone, not put them inside of it.
Well, yes, but in the first three days, there isn't a "killzone" for him to keep her out of, so that argument doesn't apply.

As for after that, in HF, he decides to let him stay with him because a) since Shinji is also a master, her house is no safer in that respect than his is and b) Shinji is unstable due to losing the war and he can't be sure of her safety if he lets her return there. In the other two routes, he doesn't find out that Shinji is a master until later and he doesn't know that Shinji is abusing her so severely, so he sends her home for her own safety. The fundamental difference between HF and the other two routes, ultimately, is not that Shirou cares more for Sakura and, thus, wants to protect her personally (rather than sending her home to be out of harms way), but that, as a result of interacting with her more, Zouken is able to begin his Xanatos Gambit, part of which involves Sakura living with Shirou, and so he orchastrates events such that Shirou will invite her to.
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Old 2010-12-20, 15:28   Link #3298
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And that's why Shrio is an idiot. If you take the extra few seconds to think things through logically, he would've come to the most practical, yet worst, conclusion. That conclusion would have been to kill her. If they did that, though, there wouldn't be a story, hence Shiro remains and idiot in all 3 paths.

Had I been in his place, I would've killed her. Minimize the casualties, no matter the cost.
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Old 2010-12-20, 15:45   Link #3299
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Had I been in his place, I would've killed her. Minimize the casualties, no matter the cost.
Same here. What is a single life compared to a million or the whole world's populace? You know, HF isn't screwed up because of Sakura or the shit that is and has been happening to her, it's actually the theme of letting a thousand+ die for a single person who may not revert.

Yeeeaaah.... uh, yeah.... Just yeah, I'd turn Sakura into a bloody mess of guts if even a hundred people's lives were at stake. Because by quantity, those people also have loved ones and hopes too. Robbing one single person of their life to make sure they live isn't wrong.

Being selfish to that degree is fucking stupid, period. There is no justifications for it. HF even trying to make it seem okay is bullshit, and which is why I can't stand the route and why I want Sakura's route re-done.
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Old 2010-12-20, 15:52   Link #3300
Tenchi Hou Take
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And you've pretty much just proven that you breezed through the game on a flowchart and don't know what you're talking about. Whether through bias or lack of understanding, you're very resistant.

Feelings are more complicated than a mere like/do not like. He was attracted to them all at different points throughout the game. As Rin said, though he may have been a broken individual, but he still had feelings, a conviction for why he sought the ideal. He wasn't completely empty. He just purely respected the man who saved him, and thought of being the same for someone else. As a UBW supporter, I can't beleive that you didn't grasp that part of the route.

As for the girls, he blatantly shows interest in Sakura from a romantic standpoint in more than just HF, just like when he is talking to Sakura in HF he went on about how he admired Rin.

Also, in HF, when he starts to relaize his feelings, he goes back in his memories and remembers all the time he had spent with Sakura, and said, many times, how he did not realize how attracted he was to her (more than just physically, and how grateful he was she supported him after Kiritsugu's death). How he enjoyed cooking with her, how knew his habits and just clicked with him. He just refused to admit it.

Now as for Rin, she was the unapproachable school idol, someone to be admired from afar for him, like the other guys did. The Grail War was the pivotal point, because Rin herself did not seem to covet interpersonal relationships, and even kept 'close' friends at a distance. Without the Grail War, she very well would not have pursued that small flame of attraction. And if she didn't Shirou was unlikely to, as he is a rather shy fellow. Only with the Grail War did they both see the excuse to see the other's true face and come to realize their love. The feelings they had there were undeniable, but they both didn't pursue them. This was similar to Sakura's relationship with Shirou, where both parties found excuses not to pursue those feelings (Shirou's shyness, because hey, "this is the freaking idol of our school Tohsaka Rin, a person who rejects guys handily all the time!") or with Sakura ("I just can't lay hands on my friend's sister, I am a trusted senpai, so I can't take advantage of our relationship!")

Saber was the "girl who plopped down from the sky" situation. Someone who struck a chord in him in his moment of flux and took up residence in his heart. Simple as that. Or not so simple, as feelings aren't very simple.

This doesn't stop him from being a one woman man, nor does it mean that he is likely to cheat. Feelings are just more complicated than you care to see. And there are many levels to love. Frankly, I'm not going to have a "who was most truly loved by Shirou" argument. Love just isn't as cut and dry as you seem to think, imo.
Insulting my reading comprehension of and saying I used a flowchart. Pretty sad you resorted to that how about we leave personalttacks out of this conversation. Anyway what you don' seem to understand are not all feelings are romantic. There are those shared by close, admiration, familarly. All you proved was that Shirou regard Sakura like close family and that he admired Rin not in crush way but the - wish - could be more like them sort of way. You appear to push romantic feelings everywhere and seem abhortant to the fact that shirou just may not have any real romantic feelings at the start. Those feelings are romantic to you because of your personal bias they're unromantic to me . You can't convincingly prove those feelings are romantic and I can't con' tsay theiy're not

It's typical pairing bullshit that can only be proven by the author which you uneededly got agressive over. Either way it's a stretch to call those feelings deep as it's mostly just a few sparse occations of shirou looking up to Rin or being thankful to sakura while still being completely unwaveringly in love with the route heroine.
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