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Old 2011-01-13, 18:12   Link #3421
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
So is Fujimura. Still mostly irrelevant to the Fate/UBW narrative.
Yes, but Taiga isn't being slowly tortured to death by her adoptive grandfather....

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Zouken doesn't get involved in the war in Fate or UBW and Rider dies early on as Shinji's Servant in both. Nope, not seeing this WHOAMG HUGE influence from her.
She gave Rider to Shinji (leading to the setting up of the bloodfort) but, more importantly, a huge amount of Rin's personality is shaped by her interactions (or the lack thereof) with Sakura, and a large proportion of her actions (in particular, saving Shirou in the beginning) are influenced by them.

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Seriously, haha oh wow. Talk about overreacting. Looks like I hit a nerve there.
Yes, you did. Because I'm fucking sick of Rin and Saber fans saying "oh, Sakura isn't important in the other two routes, so it's OK to entirely ignore her in fanfics or for Rin to fuck off to London without even giving her a second thought". Just because she's not directly involved in the war, that doesn't mean she's not important.

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So, basically, since Saber fans dislike HF because she gets screwed over in it, you, as a Sakura fan, feel that justifies you disliking Fate/UBW because Sakura gets screwed over in them instead? I see, I see.
No, disliking Fate and UBW (or, rather, the ending) because Sakura gets screwed over in them has fuck all to do with Saber fans disliking HF. Sakura has had a horrible life, and has never been given even a chance to live, and Shirou and Rin both (possibly) fuck off and leave her to die without a second thought. Not only that, but Shirou is supposed to be a fucking hero. Some fucking hero he is, if he can't even protect the girl who has spent the last year cooking for him, cleaning for him etc. and who he cares deeply about because he's too fucking stupid to notice. Not to mention Rin, who has her head so far up her ass when it comes to Sakura that it's poking out of her neck....

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Well I understand the why but I still think it's a lame mindset, no offense. Being obsessed over one character to the point of letting his/her fate alone determine your enjoyment of a route is not a good way to go about reading VNs if you ask me. Archer is my favorite character in FSN and you could say he gets the short end of the stick in Fate, but that doesn't instantly negate or undo everything else that's good in its overall story, because *gasp* there are other characters. Ones more important in the route in question.
But it's just plain unfair. Sakura gets totally fucked over because her moron sister is too wedded to some fucking stupid rule laid down by her long-dead father to check up on her properly, and despite knowing that she's never happy except around Shirou.

Plus, Sakura deserves better than that, and I'm sick of assholes like you claiming that she's "not important". She's a fucking heroine so, yes, she is an important character.

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FSN has a huge cast so obviously not everyone is gonna get their time to shine and their happy endings in all three routes. So instead of being entirely stuck and dependent on one character I think it's better to try and enjoy the whole cast and be entertained by the characters that do get screentime (and possibly a happy ending since that seems to be so important to the fanbase) in each route.
Rin gets a happy ending in every single damn route. Saber gets a happy ending in Fate and UBW (and she's a servant, so she's already lived one life). Sakura, on the other hand, gets one, and further her in Fate and UBW is left totally hanging in the air, and the whole thing is played as a happy ending (including for her) when it most definitely is not. It's just grating, and I don't give a shit if you think it's a "lame mindset". Personally, I think it's pretty "lame" to just dismiss one of the main characters outright.
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Old 2011-01-13, 19:26   Link #3422
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
Seriously, haha oh wow. Talk about overreacting. Looks like I hit a nerve there.
Obviously, since you dared to question the sanctity of Sakura's godliness! Now you face the wrath of her legion.
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Old 2011-01-13, 19:37   Link #3423
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I think this just boils down to different people enjoying media in different ways.
While some enjoy stories on a more general level, others delve deeper and develop strong preferences for certain aspects.
From out a deviant perspective, which is dictated by interest, arise alternative interpretations of the same events.
I find this particularly interesting, since it often shines light on otherwise obscure issues and prevents you from unquestioningly absorbing mainstream interpretations. It makes you think.
But why create and nurture an atmosphere of hostility?
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Old 2011-01-13, 20:54   Link #3424
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Obviously, since you dared to question the sanctity of Sakura's godliness! Now you face the wrath of her legion.
Sakura has a legion?

*flees*
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Old 2011-01-13, 21:07   Link #3425
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Well that is my point here.
It is the lack of civilized conversation when we get to topics about HF. Notice any convo shown about that goes on more than one page. And it is from more than a couple Sakura fans. Talks pertaining to HF always turn nasty. It ends up as such a polarizing topic, and people seem to relieve only negative emotions (very strong ones) in those conversations, and I find that it ruins what could be good discussion.
That was what i ws getting at.
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Old 2011-01-14, 00:12   Link #3426
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It's probably because Cherry and I kinda went out of our way to pick fights, and frankly, nothing's really changed; there's really no point to fighting anymore.
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Old 2011-01-14, 01:04   Link #3427
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Plus, Sakura deserves better than that, and I'm sick of assholes like you claiming that she's "not important". She's a fucking heroine so, yes, she is an important character.
Wait, Sakura's a heroine? Oh sorry, fucking heroine (yeah she fucks a lot all right, but boy you sure love that word).

Well, news to me. All I saw was the Saber route, Rin route and Kotomine route. Call me when Sakura gets her own and then we'll talk.
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Old 2011-01-14, 03:18   Link #3428
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
Well, news to me. All I saw was the Saber route, Rin route and Kotomine route. Call me when Sakura gets her own and then we'll talk.
Been reading too much Yaoi lately, haven't you ? ^^
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Old 2011-01-14, 03:33   Link #3429
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Originally Posted by careph View Post
Been reading too much Yaoi lately, haven't you ? ^^
Nah, just F/SN.

Spoiler:


Kotomine route ftw.
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Old 2011-01-14, 04:35   Link #3430
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It was an Archer Route, not a Rin Route. This game seems to lean more towards yaoi than most other things.
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Old 2011-01-14, 05:47   Link #3431
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Personally I think there are more tragic characters than Sakura. The orphans in the church come to mind. Their happy ending is simply closure, and they only get that in one route.
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Old 2011-01-14, 06:22   Link #3432
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by Flinch View Post
It's probably because Cherry and I kinda went out of our way to pick fights, and frankly, nothing's really changed; there's really no point to fighting anymore.
I don't go out of my way to pick fights, I just defend my viewpoint rigourously. Especially when morons like Endless Twilight post crap like he just posted.

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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
Wait, Sakura's a heroine? Oh sorry, fucking heroine (yeah she fucks a lot all right, but boy you sure love that word).

Well, news to me. All I saw was the Saber route, Rin route and Kotomine route. Call me when Sakura gets her own and then we'll talk.
Oh, come on, now you're just trolling....

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Originally Posted by Flinch View Post
It was an Archer Route, not a Rin Route. This game seems to lean more towards yaoi than most other things.
Yeah, this. If Sakura's route is the "Kotomine route", then Rin's route is most definitely Archer's route. Sakura has far more importance in HF than Rin does in UBW. In HF, the story is based around her and her and Shirou's mutual love for each other. In UBW, the story is based around Archer, and the love story is just a sub-plot that they put in there because it's an eroge and Shirou had to have sex with someone.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Personally I think there are more tragic characters than Sakura. The orphans in the church come to mind. Their happy ending is simply closure, and they only get that in one route.
Arguably, but I'm not convinced they were really aware of the suffering they were going through. Plus, just because they are tragic, that doesn't mean that Sakura isn't, or that Sakura shouldn't be saved.
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Old 2011-01-14, 06:34   Link #3433
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Originally Posted by Endless Twilight View Post
Nah, just F/SN.

Spoiler:


Kotomine route ftw.
This sounds like it could be interesting.

Would you care to elaborate?
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Old 2011-01-14, 06:41   Link #3434
Haak
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Arguably, but I'm not convinced they were really aware of the suffering they were going through. Plus, just because they are tragic, that doesn't mean that Sakura isn't, or that Sakura shouldn't be saved.
I just wanted to point out the characters that get shafted the most. Sakura and HF is a polarized discussion but atleast it's not completely ignored.

I think there's a lot of generalisation, straw men and ad hominems going on here (particularly from you Cherry Lover). Not everyone that disagrees with Heaven's feel, does so because they don't like Sakura and don't want to see her get a happy ending.
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Last edited by Haak; 2011-01-14 at 06:59.
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Old 2011-01-14, 07:16   Link #3435
Cherry_Lover
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I just wanted to point out the characters that get shafted the most. Sakura and HF is a polarized discussion but atleast it's not completely ignored.
Well, possibly, but I guess that's what comes from not being main characters. Plus, I think that Sakura in UBW (and probably Fate) potentially gets shafted just as much as they do (if Rin and Shirou don't find some way to rescue her). The only person who could make her happy is likely to disappear somewhere else in a year's time, and her big sister is probably off to London too, and thus will stop "watching over" her (not that she's done a particularly good job of it...). So, she'll be stuck alone in Fuyuki (without Shirou there, I doubt Sakura would have any reason to continue visiting Taiga) without the guy who gave her the ability to feel again or the ability to just shut her emotions down like she originally did and being slowly tortured to death by Zouken. That's a pretty comprehensive shafting, if you ask me....

Quote:
I think there's a lot of generalisation, straw men and ad hominems going on here (particularly from you Cherry Lover).
Where?

Quote:
Not everyone that disagrees with Heaven's feel, does so because they don't like Sakura and don't want to see her get a happy ending.
Please point out where I said that they did....
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Old 2011-01-14, 08:37   Link #3436
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
No, disliking Fate and UBW (or, rather, the ending) because Sakura gets screwed over in them has fuck all to do with Saber fans disliking HF. Sakura has had a horrible life, and has never been given even a chance to live, and Shirou and Rin both (possibly) fuck off and leave her to die without a second thought. Not only that, but Shirou is supposed to be a fucking hero. Some fucking hero he is, if he can't even protect the girl who has spent the last year cooking for him, cleaning for him etc. and who he cares deeply about because he's too fucking stupid to notice.
Leave her to die? That's a harsh way of saying it, especially since you make it saound like they're aware of this fact. Shirou doesn't know - which isn't surpising considering Sakura doesn't act like she's unhappy/has a problem in his presence. Futhermore, it isn't like she's telling anyone either - and yeah, one can perhaps say that she has good reasons to not to, but really, how are people supposed to know that you have a problem if you don't tell'em about it...?
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Old 2011-01-14, 08:38   Link #3437
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Originally Posted by endless twilight View Post
nah, just f/sn.

Spoiler:


kotomine route ftw.

........................................


Heh.
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Old 2011-01-14, 09:33   Link #3438
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by DarkLordOfkichiku View Post
Leave her to die? That's a harsh way of saying it, especially since you make it saound like they're aware of this fact. Shirou doesn't know - which isn't surpising considering Sakura doesn't act like she's unhappy/has a problem in his presence.
Well, it's true, though. They've gone away to London and left her to die. Even though it's not intentional (although, really, Rin seems to be subconsciously avoiding taking any notice of the signs because discovering the truth would mean that her father's teachings would come directly into conflict with her own feelings), that's still what ends up happening. And, it's not like Rin doesn't know that she will be hurting Sakura by taking Shirou to London, either, even if she doesn't know the full extent of it. I'm not saying that she shouldn't get together with the guy she loves just because her sister loves him too and, indeed, seems to rely on him, but the least she could do is have the courtesy to look into why this is the case, rather than walking out of Sakura's life with the only person who makes it worth living and not even stopping to consider what that might do to her little sister.

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Futhermore, it isn't like she's telling anyone either - and yeah, one can perhaps say that she has good reasons to not to, but really, how are people supposed to know that you have a problem if you don't tell'em about it...?
Because, to anyone who puts a moment's thought into it (except Shirou, who she is actually happy around), it should be blindingly obvious?

Rin knows that Sakura is only ever happy around Shirou (which is a good sign that something is seriously wrong with her life), she knows how magic works (i.e. that passing on a Magic Crest to a non-family member is almost impossible, and that Magi are bastards) and she knows that Shinji is abusing Sakura (although she doesn't know the extent). Given that, she should, at minimum, suspect that something bad is happening to Sakura, and if she has even the slighest suspicion then she should damn well check it out, regardless of some stupid non-interference pact (which was smashed to pieces when Sakura was given to the Matou family anyway).
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Old 2011-01-14, 09:52   Link #3439
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Well, possibly, but I guess that's what comes from not being main characters. Plus, I think that Sakura in UBW (and probably Fate) potentially gets shafted just as much as they do (if Rin and Shirou don't find some way to rescue her). The only person who could make her happy is likely to disappear somewhere else in a year's time, and her big sister is probably off to London too, and thus will stop "watching over" her (not that she's done a particularly good job of it...). So, she'll be stuck alone in Fuyuki (without Shirou there, I doubt Sakura would have any reason to continue visiting Taiga) without the guy who gave her the ability to feel again or the ability to just shut her emotions down like she originally did and being slowly tortured to death by Zouken. That's a pretty comprehensive shafting, if you ask me...
I meant in forum discussions.

Quote:
Where?

Please point out where I said that they did....
Okay, since I was stupid enough to stick my head in this, yet again, I might aswell. I'm just going to go ahead and point out the BS in both sides here:

Spoiler for Endless Twilight:


Spoiler for Cherry Lover:
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Old 2011-01-14, 11:07   Link #3440
Cherry_Lover
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Where did Rin and Saber fans come into it? You see? Generalising.
I never said all Rin and Saber fans. But, I very much doubt that the people ignoring Sakura are Sakura fans, and further both Rin fans (because the UBW ending sucks so much for Sakura, and rectifying it means putting Rin in danger and making her feel guilty for not doing something sooner, so many of them prefer for her to live in ignorant bliss of Sakura's suffering) and Saber fans (because HF is a bad end for her) have some incentive to just pretend that she doesn't exist.

So, yes, many Rin fans (in particular) do take that attitude, simply because it's more convinient for Rin if she never finds out the truth and Sakura just disappears off the face of the Earth. That way, she doesn't have to face up to her mistakes (and, more importantly, her father's mistakes) and can keep living in ignorant bliss, pretending to herself that her sister is happy.

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Either that or you're bringing in frustration from other arguments that have nothing to do with this one.
Well, he asked if he'd "hit a nerve", so I would say that my "frustrations from other arguments" are fully relevant to answering the question....

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And it's perfectly okay for fan fic writers to write off Sakura in their fan fics because it's THEIR fan fics and it's THEIR interpretation. If you don't agree with it, then don't read it.
That doesn't stop it pissing me off....

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This doesn't address his point at all.
Because he hasn't got a "point". You said so yourself. All he's got is an opinion, which I entirely disagree with, and I was explaining why I do not like those routes (or, rather, the endings, because I have no particular problem with the routes themselves).

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And your first sentence makes no sense. It's the exact same thing.
Read what I was responding to. He said (essentially) that Sakura fans only disliked Fate and UBW because Saber fans hate HF (for screwing her over), and I was pointing out that that is simply not true (for me, at least).

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Sakura gets screwed over in Fate and UBW and Saber gets screwed over in HF. Going into depth about just how fucked up Sakura ended up compared to Saber does not change that fact.
We're not sure what happens to Saber in HF, but there's a decent chance that she ends up in Avalon nevertheless, and even if she doesn't, she's already lived her life, so I don't see why it's so awful that she doesn't get another one, and plus the worst outcome is that she just dies (or becomes a CG, I suppose, but that wouldn't hurt her as much as it hurt Archer and it's pretty unlikely, IMO, since it would mean changing the past). Sakura in Fate and UBW, on the other hand, has never even been given a chance, and unless Rin or Shirou save her she just get left to die without ever even having a chance to live. In her entire life, she will have had a couple of years of something resembling happiness (her time with Shirou), and even then she was being tortured constantly, plus he then deserted her and (unwittingly) left her to suffer, having destroyed the mental barriers that protected her for so long.

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Endless Twilight's point was that it's ridiculous to hate a route entirely because of a character getting screwed over.
And I disagree entirely with that "point".

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Talking about just how much said character gets screwed over does not address his point.
No, but it explains why I actually feel that way. It's not just a case of Sakura coming off a little badly, she is totally fucked over, and further she ends up worse off than she was before, solely so Rin can be happy (even though, if Rin knew the truth, she would likely risk everything to save her).

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Again, Endless Twilight's point was that it's ridiculous to hate a route entirely because of a character getting screwed over. Talking about just how much said character gets screwed over does not address his point.
And, again, I disagree entirely with his opinion, and thus I was explaining why I feel that way, in order to make it make more sense to people.

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Sakura is fictional character. She doesn't deserve anything because she doesn't exist.
I don't care. I know she isn't real, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to just ignore her suffering and be OK when other people don't give a shit.

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In HF, yes she is an important character. But the fact of the matter is that she was purely a minor character in both Fate and UBW.
Perhaps, but she's still important to Rin and Shirou, so just leaving her to die is not a reasonable outcome.

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If you consider Fate and UBW as part of the whole story that is Fate Stay Night, then yes you're right Sakura isn't a minor character and her absence is jarring.
After playing HF and seeing what Sakura is going through, I don't see how anyone can see it any other way.

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But Endless Twilight was specifically talking about Fate and UBW, and I'm guessing he considers each route independant of one another. Again, that's his interpretation. Yours is clearly different.
Well, yes, clearly. However, it is one game, not three, and they all share a common backstory and common characters. So, it makes sense to look at the three together, rather than in isolation.

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You should've pointed that out instead of calling him an asshole.
And he shouldn't have told me that my opinion was "lame", because it's not. So, yes, he is an asshole, because he's entirely dismissing my way of looking at the story (and my favourite character) just because she's "not important" in those routes, even though she is important behind the scenes, and her well-being is important to Rin and Shirou.

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Why do Rin and Saber getting happy endings make a difference?
Because, if Rin and Saber can get happy endings outside her route, then why is it so unreasonable for Sakura fans to expect her to?

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You're making it sound as if Endless Twilight is trying to deny Sakura her one happy ending, but that was never his point to begin with.
No, but he is saying that she (and her fans) shouldn't expect a happy ending for her, and that we're being unreasonable for disliking the endings of the first two routes because they don't give her one.
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