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Old 2011-02-27, 11:40   Link #3601
Altima of the Gates
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
It's a matter of opinion with the jewel sword, I think. I personally found it every bit the Dues Ex Machina it wasn't intended to be. Personally, I think the fight between Dark Sakura and Rin could have been much, much better than what it ultimately was, with how Nasu was building up the whole conflict.
Well I know it was an opinion, and I countered with, "imo", lol.

It was planned out for most of the route, which is why imo it is not really DEM-ish. Besides, Rin had no jewels left at that point. It would be a hopeless fight for Rin otherwise.

Besides that fight could have been shorter than it was, if only Rin didn't try to antagonize.
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Old 2011-02-27, 11:57   Link #3602
Mozzy1979
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Originally Posted by careph View Post
Oh boy have I become bad at this. Irony does not work well on the net, and I can see why GDB would call me a troll. Nobody understood what I was trying to convey, so I guess it was my mistake. There's no room for apologies or concessions either, the damage is already done. Just a few clarifications:
My entire point was that while usually the environmental factors influencing Sakura's behaviour/personality are seen as quite apart from her „true nature“, the effects they produced on the girl are taken as a basis for future prognoses. We only got a rather small, extremely one-sided - I daresay – glimpse of her in the course of the game(s). I see no reason to allot these effects any significance in her future endeavours. Further, I'd even say they shouldn't play any role in her future.
Well, the thing is, whilst some of her personality is definitely a result of the abuse she's been through and her situation with Shirou (her very low self-esteem and her liking for domestic chores (which comes from the fact that she wants to be with and help Shirou), for instance), a large part of it (such as her generally kind, caring nature) is not, so there's no reason to assume that she would not be apeople person.

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Any claim to the universal value of a behaviour must be rejected. What is beneficial or useful in one situation may be detrimental and meaningless in another. And I do not believe the specialized coping strategies Sakura developed in the course of her life would prove to be much use in a more “normal” setting. Therefore I wouldn't encourage their prolonged use beyond their original purpose.
This is just my opinion, feel free to call it bullshit, feel free to call it trolling.
Well, of course, but being a generally kind, selfless person is not something that should be considered a bad thing, and nor is it a "defense mechanism", and that's the main point of the argument here. Sakura is the sort of person who I think would enjoy helping others.

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Originally Posted by DezoPenguin View Post
In other words, the reactions and defense mechanisms that one uses to retain one's sanity over ten or so years of torture and sexual abuse at the hands of a near-immortal demonic worm monster that more-or-less used to be a mage and that required massive power levels, titanic self-sacrificing moments by many people, and, I believe, a Zelretch Ex Machina to successfully resolve, are not likely to be the same ones that appropriately deal with when a co-worker steals your lunch out of the fridge.
Yep, basically. Although, I don't think her situation is quite as impossible to resolve as you think, or at least I hope it's not.

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Or in other words, part of why Sakura is so passive is that up until HF rolled around, her situation was by any rational standard hopeless and actively fighting against it would only make it worse, if one can imagine such a thing. In post-HF life, facing situations that can successfully be resolved by action rather than endurance, she may well...act.
Exactly.

Sakura does not fight because she cannot fight.

Quote:
(On the other hand, I can also see her being perfectly happy as Emiya Sakura, housewife, too. Lots of different possible paths in the future.)
Yeah, if she's with Shirou, I think she'd be happy to just look after him, their kids and the house. However, I don't think Shirou would be happy with that. Most likely, if she did take on that role, she would do something additionally, or at least learn magic (their kids would likely be high-quality magi too, so someone would have to teach them).

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Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
It's a matter of opinion with the jewel sword, I think. I personally found it every bit the Dues Ex Machina it wasn't intended to be.
I think it makes perfect sense, given the situation, and the idea of Shirou being able to trace it is hardly implausible.

Quote:
Personally, I think the fight between Dark Sakura and Rin could have been much, much better than what it ultimately was, with how Nasu was building up the whole conflict.
Well, I think it was never about the fight, although that was IMO pretty awesome. The point was the emotions passing between the two girls.
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Old 2011-02-28, 00:00   Link #3603
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Originally Posted by Mozzy1979 View Post
*blah blah blah*
...

You sound a lot like CL. It's kind of creepy.
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Old 2011-02-28, 08:08   Link #3604
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Secretly it is CL under another account. :P
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Old 2011-02-28, 09:39   Link #3605
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Originally Posted by Mozzy1979 View Post
Well, the thing is, whilst some of her personality is definitely a result of the abuse she's been through and her situation with Shirou (her very low self-esteem and her liking for domestic chores (which comes from the fact that she wants to be with and help Shirou), for instance), a large part of it (such as her generally kind, caring nature) is not, so there's no reason to assume that she would not be apeople person.
This boils down to a nature vs. nurture debate. Is a human born as a blank slate, to be engraved with experience by its environment, or is there an essence which precedes its existence(1)? There is an abundance of arguments for and against either, but I fear that would go beyond the scope of this discussion. Nonetheless, I feel emotionally inclined to agree with you on a “nature” that may be overshadowed or repressed, yet rationally I would have to reject such a notion, based on my research on that topic.

(1) Please note that I am referring to cognitive development here only. Physically, a new-born baby is already well equipped to deal with its environment.

Quote:
Well, of course, but being a generally kind, selfless person is not something that should be considered a bad thing, and nor is it a "defense mechanism", and that's the main point of the argument here. Sakura is the sort of person who I think would enjoy helping others.
Have you ever thought about the constituents that make up the word “selfless”? Self – less. Without a self. The self may be described as the ever-changing nucleus from which all output, to which all input flows. If that input is excessively negative and harmful, one strategy is to try to remove that core in order to cut off the pain. At the same time, the self is the engine that powers a human. Removing that energy generator necessitates the creation of a substitute – you stop living for yourself, but live for others instead. This is also why I would advocate finding a way to live for yourself, and for your self.
This explanation is excessively simplistic and selective, but I hope it makes sense.

Last edited by careph; 2011-02-28 at 11:57.
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Old 2011-02-28, 23:22   Link #3606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mozzy1979 View Post
Well, I think it was never about the fight, although that was IMO pretty awesome. The point was the emotions passing between the two girls.
Fair enough point, but really, the fight could have been much better without losing that exchange of emotions. The actual confrontation itself was a major letdown considering how much Nasu built up to it and foreshadowed it. One can have a good fight between characters and still have emotions pass between them.

Apologies for the double post, but I have a question that's been nagging at me.

Spoiler:
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2011-03-01 at 17:23. Reason: merge double-post; please just edit instead of double-posting
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Old 2011-03-01, 15:23   Link #3607
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Sakura seemed to have a knife of her own, which she stabbed Rin with. Dunno how exactly, though. Presumably it came from the same place where Rin's knife came from (i.e. straight out of her ass).
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Old 2011-03-01, 15:27   Link #3608
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike1984 View Post
Sakura seemed to have a knife of her own, which she stabbed Rin with. Dunno how exactly, though. Presumably it came from the same place where Rin's knife came from (i.e. straight out of her ass).
But it was never even remotely hinted in the game that Sakura had her own knife. I know Nasu's writing can be rather flawed at times, but I like to think that if Sakura had a knife on her, it was still something he would have foreshadowed.
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Old 2011-03-01, 15:29   Link #3609
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Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
But it was never even remotely hinted in the game that Sakura had her own knife. I know Nasu's writing can be rather flawed at times, but I like to think that if Sakura had a knife on her, it was still something he would have foreshadowed.
Like I said, it came from the same place that Rin's knife came from.
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Old 2011-03-01, 17:14   Link #3610
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Didn't Sakura stab her with her tenticles?
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Old 2011-03-01, 17:29   Link #3611
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It wasn't a knife she stabbed Sakura with, it was Angra Mainyu. Re-read that bit, you'll see what happened was Sakura's body "automatically tried to defend itself". Probably using the same spear-projection things she used to beat up Shirou with a bit later.

edit: wups beaten to it. although tentacles sound so... inelegant.
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Old 2011-03-01, 22:21   Link #3612
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Kind of odd that it wasn't mentioned, but I guess it was just one of those things Nasu assumed you would know from previous scenes. Thanks for clearing it up. ^^
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Old 2011-03-02, 04:45   Link #3613
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Didn't Sakura stab her with her tenticles?
I read that as "testicles"....



edit:

Wait, when was CL banned?
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Old 2011-03-02, 21:01   Link #3614
Altima of the Gates
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
Kind of odd that it wasn't mentioned, but I guess it was just one of those things Nasu assumed you would know from previous scenes. Thanks for clearing it up. ^^
Well we know it goes out of control and has a mind of it's own throughout the route. Sakura at that point was pretty much, "Screw it. I can die now." then AM was like, "Oh no you don't, you're my host, forget about dying." Remember guys, we are dealing with possession here.

Which is why it tried to fight Shirou off later despite Sakura protesting it.
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Old 2011-03-03, 19:57   Link #3615
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Originally Posted by Seitsuki View Post
It wasn't a knife she stabbed Sakura with, it was Angra Mainyu. Re-read that bit, you'll see what happened was Sakura's body "automatically tried to defend itself". Probably using the same spear-projection things she used to beat up Shirou with a bit later.

edit: wups beaten to it. although tentacles sound so... inelegant.
Yeah, I looked back at it again, and you're right. It wasn't a knife she had, it was her body "trying to defend itself". Although, my comment on where Rin's knife came from (in case you can't tell, I was Mike1984) still stands....

Quote:
Originally Posted by careph View Post
This boils down to a nature vs. nurture debate. Is a human born as a blank slate, to be engraved with experience by its environment, or is there an essence which precedes its existence(1)? There is an abundance of arguments for and against either, but I fear that would go beyond the scope of this discussion. Nonetheless, I feel emotionally inclined to agree with you on a “nature” that may be overshadowed or repressed, yet rationally I would have to reject such a notion, based on my research on that topic.

(1) Please note that I am referring to cognitive development here only. Physically, a new-born baby is already well equipped to deal with its environment.
Well, the correct answer to the nature vs. nurture debate is that, in fact, it is both which matter. Which is more important is, of course, a matter of some debate (with much evidence for both sides).

However, you are forgetting something important here. In Sakura's case, it's not nature vs. nurture, but rather nature and four years of (most likely) loving nurture from her mother and (to a lesser extent) her sister vs. eleven years of torture by Zouken designed to over-ride that. Whilst nurture definitely has a big effect on a person's personality, even at a deep and very fundamental level, your base personality is seemingly set at a very young age, so Sakura's fundamental nature was likely shaped not by Zouken's abuse, but by her treatment in her early years at the Tohsaka house. What Zouken did to her buried that fundamental nature below layers of self-hatred and crippingly low self-confidence, but it never actually erased it.

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Have you ever thought about the constituents that make up the word “selfless”? Self – less. Without a self.
Erm, no, that's not what it means at all. It means "does not think about themselves", not "does not have a self".

Quote:
The self may be described as the ever-changing nucleus from which all output, to which all input flows. If that input is excessively negative and harmful, one strategy is to try to remove that core in order to cut off the pain. At the same time, the self is the engine that powers a human. Removing that energy generator necessitates the creation of a substitute – you stop living for yourself, but live for others instead. This is also why I would advocate finding a way to live for yourself, and for your self.
This explanation is excessively simplistic and selective, but I hope it makes sense.
Well, I would not disagree that a person should like for themselves to some extent, and that excessive self-sacrificial tendancies (of the kind Shirou and Sakura exhibit) are bad. In fact, this is the reason why I think HF is the best route in terms of the pairing and the character development, because Shirou learns to actually think of himself and what he wants, and pairing him with Sakura will assist him with that because they are both the same, and thus will have to learn to look after themselves to make each other happy.

However, wishing to help others and putting them first is not a bad thing, provided that the person in question recognises that they are a person too, with human needs and wants, and that it is perfectly OK for them to act in their own interest as well. This is what Kiritsugu failed to understand, and what MoS Shirou could not understand.

Last edited by Cherry_Lover; 2011-03-03 at 20:35.
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Old 2011-03-03, 21:14   Link #3616
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Yeah, I looked back at it again, and you're right. It wasn't a knife she had, it was her body "trying to defend itself". Although, my comment on where Rin's knife came from (in case you can't tell, I was Mike1984) still stands....
It's Rin. She's a master of pulling things out of thin air and we have no clue where she keeps any of them. That's part of the fun of it.
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Old 2011-03-03, 21:23   Link #3617
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Originally Posted by RadiantBeam View Post
It's Rin. She's a master of pulling things out of thin air and we have no clue where she keeps any of them. That's part of the fun of it.
Being a proper magus, I'm going to assume she has a magical bag/cloth like Lina Inverse does. It doesn't change the weight of the items inside, but it lets one carry things of any size with them discreetly (assuming they have the strength to carry it).

That explains away any inconsistencies.
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Old 2011-03-03, 21:50   Link #3618
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Well, the thing is, there's no real reason for her to bring a knife in the first place (for one thing, I don't genuinely think she could have killed Sakura even if she had stabbed her), and it's never mentioned at any point that she either has such a bag or that she has picked up a knife to use.
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Old 2011-03-03, 21:52   Link #3619
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Wait, where is this knife coming from? She was carrying a freaking sword. I'm pretty sure you can stab someone with a sword. You don't need a separate knife for that.
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Old 2011-03-03, 22:16   Link #3620
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What, you mean the sword which she blew up in the previous scene?
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