AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Fate/ Series

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-10-06, 14:59   Link #3801
Cherry_Lover
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auria View Post
Well, it was already admitted that Sakuras situation has to be overlooked to consider that a good ending (and at this point in the game you don't know anything about what will happen in the 3rd route), Rider is a servant so one doesn't expect her to stay in this world (tbh I found her presence in the HF true end even a bit awkward) and Ilya would have died soon anyway, so this route is probably one of the most positive endings F/SN has to offer, though it of course depends on the player's priorities
But the only real difference between HF True and UBW Good is that Sakura has been saved and Saber has been swapped with Rider. Plus Ilya at least gets to die happy. So, how exactly is the UBW Good ending better?
Cherry_Lover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-10-06, 15:09   Link #3802
Endscape
The Mage of Four Hearts
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
But the only real difference between HF True and UBW Good is that Sakura has been saved and Saber has been swapped with Rider. Plus Ilya at least gets to die happy. So, how exactly is the UBW Good ending better?
It all depends on what characters you like. For Saber fans, UBW Good is great because it's all the awesome of UBW with Saber at the end, which is why I like it. For people like those, UBW Good would be better than HF True.

Not to mention, all those innocent townspeople don't die in UBW Good, so if you feel pity for them...
__________________




Illusion, illusion, this is illusion. It cannot harm me.
Endscape is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-10-06, 15:26   Link #3803
Cherry_Lover
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
It all depends on what characters you like. For Saber fans, UBW Good is great because it's all the awesome of UBW with Saber at the end, which is why I like it. For people like those, UBW Good would be better than HF True.
Well, perhaps, but it's clearly not a truly "happy" ending, certainly not any more than HF True is anyway.

Quote:
Not to mention, all those innocent townspeople don't die in UBW Good, so if you feel pity for them...
No, but it's said that there's going to be another big war in ten or so years time to shut down the Grail permanently, and innocent people are sure to die in that, so....
Cherry_Lover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-10-06, 17:44   Link #3804
Ragna92
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
I felt that Heavens feel true end felt the most perfect. The sisters can finally get along with eachother, and no more torture for Sakura. She can finally be happy. Plus the way it ended with Rin, Sakura, Rider, and Shirou looking at the cherry blossoms was just fantastic.

But my favorite end was probably UBW True(I like Rin too much)
Ragna92 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-10-06, 17:45   Link #3805
Cherry_Lover
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 30
Well, if you like Rin, then surely HF True should be your favourite end, because it's the only one where she's not going to have to deal with the fact that she left her little sister to be tortured by a monster whilst she ran off to London....
Cherry_Lover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-10-06, 20:24   Link #3806
Endscape
The Mage of Four Hearts
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Well, perhaps, but it's clearly not a truly "happy" ending, certainly not any more than HF True is anyway.
I like to think that they are equally happy, barring the Sakura thing.
__________________




Illusion, illusion, this is illusion. It cannot harm me.
Endscape is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-10-06, 21:20   Link #3807
LostHanyou
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: USA
Let's be honest, UBW Good End is an extremely (IMO obnoxiously) happy ending - the Sakura issue is never dealt with so people simply do not like drawing parallels that, behind the scenes, very little is actually fixed aside from Shirou's ideals. However, I don't really think people need to go to the extent of acknowledging that the ending isn't happy because Sakura is not involved, since upon completing the ending most people had never finished HF in the first place. Even after completing HF, the feeling of "Wow, UBW good is really happy!" isn't so easy to argue away so long as the feeling is still there.

This discussion reminds me of a fanfic called Dear Tohsaka. Pretty decent read, by the way.
LostHanyou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-10-06, 22:52   Link #3808
DragoZERO
Spoilaphobic
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: USA
Age: 28


UBW good is the best because Saber is there at the end. And I think we talked about how they could go and save Sakura after that and I'd trade one loli for two heroines, sorry.
DragoZERO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-10-07, 01:27   Link #3809
Haak
God Damn Christmas Songs
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Hey, hey, hey. It was the character in your avatar who said it, not me .
...well you've got me there. I guess I'm going to have to change avatars at some point. It would be a bit strange to have a sig of assassin and an avatar of Kamijou Touma, though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
No, but it's said that there's going to be another big war in ten or so years time to shut down the Grail permanently, and innocent people are sure to die in that, so....
I thought the Grail gets dismantled by a certain someone...

In any case I don't think you can compare innocents who definitely die to innocents who might die. If I recall, that was the whole point of not killing Sakura (at least from my perspective).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Well, if you like Rin, then surely HF True should be your favourite end, because it's the only one where she's not going to have to deal with the fact that she left her little sister to be tortured by a monster whilst she ran off to London....
It's more than possible that she moves on from Sakura and never finds out. Heck it's possible that Emiya somehow manages to find out and saves Sakura (at least that's what I'd like to believe). You know that Sakura's Letter fanfic isn't actually canon...
__________________
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-10-07, 03:43   Link #3810
Cherry_Lover
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I thought the Grail gets dismantled by a certain someone...
According to Nasu, no, it doesn't.

Quote:
In any case I don't think you can compare innocents who definitely die to innocents who might die. If I recall, that was the whole point of not killing Sakura (at least from my perspective).
Well, it depends what you're talking about. If you're talking about whether it's morally right to murder an innocent civilian in cold blood then, yeah, that's definitely the case. But, if you're talking about how "happy" the ending is or is likely to be, I see no reason why you shouldn't.

Quote:
It's more than possible that she moves on from Sakura and never finds out.
Then she's a total fucking failure of a sister who doesn't deserve to be happy. You don't just "move on" from your fucking family.

Quote:
Heck it's possible that Emiya somehow manages to find out and saves Sakura (at least that's what I'd like to believe). You know that Sakura's Letter fanfic isn't actually canon...
Yeah, it's possible, but it's not canon. And, even without that, HF True is still just as happy an ending.
Cherry_Lover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-10-07, 04:11   Link #3811
Haak
God Damn Christmas Songs
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Well, it depends what you're talking about. If you're talking about whether it's morally right to murder an innocent civilian in cold blood then, yeah, that's definitely the case. But, if you're talking about how "happy" the ending is or is likely to be, I see no reason why you shouldn't.
What's the difference? If I could choose an ending between one where people might die and one where people definitely die, I'd call that a no brainer.

Quote:
Then she's a total fucking failure of a sister who doesn't deserve to be happy. You don't just "move on" from your fucking family.
Um...why not? Your family is who you percieve it to be. There's nothing wrong with Rin deicidng that she it's not her responsibility to look after Sakura if she doesn't feel there's anything wrong. I don't even think it was her responsibility in the first place and I doubt she considered it that way when she was looking out for Sakura. Imo, it was her own desire to watch over Sakura.

Quote:
Yeah, it's possible, but it's not canon. And, even without that, HF True is still just as happy an ending.
*shrugs* I'm not really arguing against that.
__________________
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-10-07, 06:39   Link #3812
BladeEntity
Anything's Possible
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
From my point of view, in terms of ending all of them are good endings but what ending people think are happy are relative to what kind of ending they want. e.g. which heroine is alive, which girl wins Shirou's heart...

However from a storytelling point of view, all endings are good and equivelent. It's very similar to the law of chaos theory, where one event can lead to similing unrealted events. But such is the why of a VN especially one from Nasu. The initial catalyst, which is paying attention to the different heroines caused the different routes assuming that all routes could be played without having to play one to get to another. I think this choice from Nasu makes the game very linear but also improves the storytelling style of FSN. Firstly we have build up of a single heroine allowing us to get to know one extremely well at a time, in doing so leaves the others more or less shafted this would obviously improve sympathy towards Sakura during HF which from a literature perspective is good writing.

This also sort of makes the story linear and rather biased to which is a more canon route as it would appear that HF is the most important route of all. However since there is a law of cause and effect all routes are valid such is a VN despite FSN seemingly linear nature, for example the initial choices would lead different routes, paying more attention to Sakura to access HF would lead you to realise the issues with her family her life. Or becoming captivated with Saber and sort of leaving Sakura behind.

This leads to a second point about the VN though. From the start I felt that it was a story focused on Shirou and his ideals. The 3 routes show a progression of his idealistic nature. The fate route showed an idealistic Shirou who would try to save as many people as he can as shone when he sacrifices his feelings for Saber and destroys the Grail.
UBW route shows a Shirou with more changing ideals a period of learning, this is done through Archer who wants to change that idealistic nature and Shioru learning that he cannot save everyone.
HF route showed that Shirou takes the most realistic approach to his ideals that he must make a choice of who he wants to save, he cannot save everyone in other words, sacrifice the many for the one.

Oddly enough the different choices of Shirou is reflected on the different heroines.

Idealistic Shirou - Saber who gave up her humnity for her country as king
Growing Shirou - Rin who understands the need to save people but also has the character who is willing to make the necessary sacrifices
Realistic Shirou - No offense to Sakura fans but she while having alot of compassion was also extremely selfish when it came to the lives of people and would have easily sacrificed many for Shirou. You can dissagree on me with that since I can't remember that well.

This points to the idea that each route is equal in importance despite the fact that they had to be played in certain orders. Regardless of which Heroine you like most, I would say that the kind of Shioru chosen would fall for a different girl and lead to different events.

My longest Post ever.... -____-
__________________
Nothing is Impossible
BladeEntity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-10-07, 08:54   Link #3813
Haak
God Damn Christmas Songs
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
I think the real reason people say UBW Good End is the happiest one is because they look at it from Emiya's perspective in what he doesn't lose:
Fate End: Loses Saber
UBW True End: Loses no one
UBW Good End: Loses no one + Bonus Saber
HF Normal End: Dies
HF True End: Loses Ilya (maybe Saber if that counts)
__________________
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-10-07, 14:32   Link #3814
Cherry_Lover
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Um...why not? Your family is who you percieve it to be. There's nothing wrong with Rin deicidng that she it's not her responsibility to look after Sakura if she doesn't feel there's anything wrong. I don't even think it was her responsibility in the first place and I doubt she considered it that way when she was looking out for Sakura. Imo, it was her own desire to watch over Sakura.
But Rin does perceive Sakura as her "sister", and further she knows how much Shirou means to her, and that she's always sad except when he's around. Given that, to run off to London with him and forget about her without even looking into why would be a real dickish move.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BladeEntity View Post
Realistic Shirou - No offense to Sakura fans but she while having alot of compassion was also extremely selfish when it came to the lives of people and would have easily sacrificed many for Shirou. You can dissagree on me with that since I can't remember that well.
OK, what?

Since when is Sakura "selfish", or at least unusually so? Hell, she's not the one who quite willingly fought in a war that would likely result in the deaths of a bunch of people just because she wanted to prove to herself that she could win it....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I think the real reason people say UBW Good End is the happiest one is because they look at it from Emiya's perspective in what he doesn't lose:
Fate End: Loses Saber
UBW True End: Loses no one
UBW Good End: Loses no one + Bonus Saber
HF Normal End: Dies
HF True End: Loses Ilya (maybe Saber if that counts)
He loses Sakura, eventually, unless he finds a way to save her.
Cherry_Lover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-10-07, 15:06   Link #3815
Haak
God Damn Christmas Songs
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
But Rin does perceive Sakura as her "sister", and further she knows how much Shirou means to her, and that she's always sad except when he's around. Given that, to run off to London with him and forget about her without even looking into why would be a real dickish move.
Yes, I'm aware that Rin sees her as her sister. What i'm trying to say is that she has no obligation to. It's her choice, and if she's changed her mind (she was more stuck in limbo really) then that's her choice.

And whose to say that she didn't check with Sakura first? It's not like Sakura has a case anymore. Not when Shirou has already decided where his preferences lie.

@ second point - We don't know what happens to Sakura nor can we be sure how he'd react. They might have already gone their seperate ways and lost contact at that point. If he even learns truth behind her death (and there's no guaruntee that he will) he might simply treat her tragedy the same way he treated the orphans' tragedy in Fate, and move on.
__________________

Last edited by Haak; 2011-10-07 at 15:47.
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-10-07, 16:11   Link #3816
Cherry_Lover
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Yes, I'm aware that Rin sees her as her sister. What i'm trying to say is that she has no obligation to. It's her choice, and if she's changed her mind (she was more stuck in limbo really) then that's her choice.
No, not really. Sakura is her sister, whether she likes it or not, and she clearly does care about her. To just bury that because of some true magus bullshit is not at all justifiable.

Quote:
And whose to say that she didn't check with Sakura first? It's not like Sakura has a case anymore. Not when Shirou has already decided where his preferences lie.
I'm not saying "Rin shouldn't be with Shirou", I'm saying she should check up on Sakura better.

Quote:
@ second point - We don't know what happens to Sakura nor can we be sure how he'd react. They might have already gone their seperate ways and lost contact at that point. If he even learns truth behind her death (and there's no guaruntee that he will) he might simply treat her tragedy the same way he treated the orphans' tragedy in Fate, and move on.
I don't see Shirou just "losing contact" with someone he sees as family, and I certainly don't see him not being very upset that she died, especially if he knows what happened to her. There's a big difference between a bunch of orphans in a basement and a girl who you saw as part of your "family" (and who you abandoned).
Cherry_Lover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-10-07, 16:21   Link #3817
Haak
God Damn Christmas Songs
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
No, not really. Sakura is her sister, whether she likes it or not, and she clearly does care about her. To just bury that because of some true magus bullshit is not at all justifiable.
Lol, subjective-fu. I already made the point that such things can be seen as relative and this is clearly the point of view that Rin chose. And there is absolutely nothing wrong that. It's Rin deicison whether she can see Sakura as her sister. She doesn't have to and has no obligation to. It's her decision and there's no reason why she can't.

Quote:
I'm not saying "Rin shouldn't be with Shirou", I'm saying she should check up on Sakura better.
You mentioned that Rin knows how much Shirou means to Sakura so I pointed out that it's possible she already took that into account.

Quote:
I don't see Shirou just "losing contact" with someone he sees as family, and I certainly don't see him not being very upset that she died, especially if he knows what happened to her. There's a big difference between a bunch of orphans in a basement and a girl who you saw as part of your "family" (and who you abandoned).
Shirou was also very upset with the orphans as well and seriously considered going against his beliefs to save them as well. It's very debatable whether he will still consider Sakura a part of his family as Sakura becomes less and less a part of his life. Bonds can be gradually lost like that. Again, this is all assuming that Shirou doesn't find out about Sakura's true tragedy nor manages to save her. There's simply too many ifs to conclusively say that he loses her the same way he loses the other heroines (This is why I put a question mark over his loss of Saber in HF). The other heroines fates and what they meant to Shirou are made explicitly clear. Sakura's case is far more ambiguous.
__________________

Last edited by Haak; 2011-10-07 at 16:43.
Haak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-10-07, 17:52   Link #3818
Cherry_Lover
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Lol, subjective-fu. I already made the point that such things can be seen as relative and this is clearly the point of view that Rin chose. And there is absolutely nothing wrong that. It's Rin deicison whether she can see Sakura as her sister. She doesn't have to and has no obligation to. It's her decision and there's no reason why she can't.
I disagree. She clearly cares for Sakura, and if she shits on her like you're saying she would be "entitled" to and follows her father's bullshit "true magus" ideal at Sakura's expense then I have absolutely no wish to see her "happy". If she does that then she's just a total failure as a sister and a failure as a human being.

Quote:
You mentioned that Rin knows how much Shirou means to Sakura so I pointed out that it's possible she already took that into account.
How? How could she "take that into account" and then go through with it anyway, without even making any effort to check up on why Sakura is always unhappy?

Quote:
Shirou was also very upset with the orphans as well and seriously considered going against his beliefs to save them as well.
Are you seriously claiming that he's going to be more upset about a bunch of orphans he doesn't know than a girl who is like family to him and who he actually reasonably could have saved?

Quote:
It's very debatable whether he will still consider Sakura a part of his family as Sakura becomes less and less a part of his life. Bonds can be gradually lost like that.
I don't think it's likely, especially not for someone like Shirou. Sakura is very close to him, as is Taiga, and I don't see him just forgetting about them.

Quote:
Again, this is all assuming that Shirou doesn't find out about Sakura's true tragedy nor manages to save her. There's simply too many ifs to conclusively say that he loses her the same way he loses the other heroines (This is why I put a question mark over his loss of Saber in HF). The other heroines fates and what they meant to Shirou are made explicitly clear. Sakura's case is far more ambiguous.
Well, this is definitely true, which is part of why I dislike the UBW endings. There is a huge amount of uncertainty there about how happy the ending really is. Not only for Sakura, but also for Shirou and Rin, by extension.
Cherry_Lover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-10-07, 22:06   Link #3819
BladeEntity
Anything's Possible
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Lol, subjective-fu. I already made the point that such things can be seen as relative and this is clearly the point of view that Rin chose. And there is absolutely nothing wrong that. It's Rin deicison whether she can see Sakura as her sister. She doesn't have to and has no obligation to. It's her decision and there's no reason why she can't.
Agreed, this is obviously assuming that the paradigms in which the FSN world is different and the magus have to live by different rules. Rin had absolutely no obligation to look out for Sakura as far as the society of magicians are considered, once Tokiomi gave Sakura to the Matou, she was not Rin's sister anymore, therefore looking out for Sakura is part of her own decision. However that was all she could do, since she would not go against the decision her father made.

Quote:
Since when is Sakura "selfish", or at least unusually so? Hell, she's not the one who quite willingly fought in a war that would likely result in the deaths of a bunch of people just because she wanted to prove to herself that she could win it....
I say Sakura was selfish because, her character would have forsaken everything for Shirou making her love for Shirou a very selfish one. And that would be similar to the mindset that Shirou has during the HF route.

I noticed that a lot of the dislike pointed at routes not HF is because the Sakura situation is not resolved, yeah well her character completely disappeared during the earlier routes in other words she was insignificant in those routes therefore by those routes standards and since Sakura is deemed not important, the other routes are happy. And its always nice to assume that if and only if Shirou finds out about Zoken, then Sakura can be saved. And he would save her but that would be the big IF in the earlier 2 routes.
__________________
Nothing is Impossible
BladeEntity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2011-10-07, 23:40   Link #3820
Vicious108
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by BladeEntity View Post
I noticed that a lot of the dislike pointed at routes not HF is because the Sakura situation is not resolved, yeah well her character completely disappeared during the earlier routes in other words she was insignificant in those routes therefore by those routes standards and since Sakura is deemed not important, the other routes are happy.
Spoiler:
Vicious108 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
fate/stay night, visual novel

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:46.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.