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Old 2011-10-08, 05:07   Link #3821
Haak
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
I disagree. She clearly cares for Sakura, and if she shits on her like you're saying she would be "entitled" to and follows her father's bullshit "true magus" ideal at Sakura's expense then I have absolutely no wish to see her "happy". If she does that then she's just a total failure as a sister and a failure as a human being.
Why is she shitting on her? Because she hasn't factored in why Sakura is unhappy unless she's around Shirou?

If that's the case can I just point that if that's not a factor anymore, then you would acknowledge that she's totally in line to do what she likes, right?

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How? How could she "take that into account" and then go through with it anyway, without even making any effort to check up on why Sakura is always unhappy?
It's not hard to guess why Sakura is always unhappy *cough*Shinji*cough*. In any case it's more than possible that Rin already checked up on why and couldn't find anything wrong (Like in that scene where she goes off screen with Sakura to patch things up with her). Or she may have simply gauged how reasonable it was from Shirou who also decided it's no problem to leave Sakura without a second thought.

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Are you seriously claiming that he's going to be more upset about a bunch of orphans he doesn't know than a girl who is like family to him and who he actually reasonably could have saved?
Okay, first things first. They were more than just a bunch of orphans to Shirou. That was made all too clear in the VN and I think you're seriously undermining what they meant to Shirou. Secondly could he have reasonably saved Sakura? No. The only way for Shirou to save Sakura in HF was for Sakura to become Dark Sakura and become suicidal enough to rip the worm zoken out of her body, and Shirou to see and use Rule Breaker. Also Shirou had the chance to save the orphans as well. Finally, I'm not claiming he would be more upset. I'm not even claiming it would be the same. What I'm saying is that whilst Shirou might care more for Sakura it's not significant enough for him to treat her more seperately. I think this is actually the reason why Sakura's fate was made ambiguous in the other two routes in the first place. Because this was how he would've treated her tragedy.

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I don't think it's likely, especially not for someone like Shirou. Sakura is very close to him, as is Taiga, and I don't see him just forgetting about them.
I think it's likely. Consider how little Sakura came up in the other two arcs, how litle she mattered when Shirou made the deicison to leave town with Rin and now times that tenfold and you've got an idea of how little Sakura is going to mean to Shirou from now on. Imagine if Shirou is already embroiled in another conlifct (as only Shirou could be) and then finds out that Sakura's dead. Do you think he's going to be any position to leave that conflict and get the next plane to Fukuyu? I don't think so. If Shirou plans to become a superhero then unless he has Facebook I don't see him keeping a significant contact with Sakura.
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Old 2011-10-08, 21:01   Link #3822
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by BladeEntity View Post
Agreed, this is obviously assuming that the paradigms in which the FSN world is different and the magus have to live by different rules. Rin had absolutely no obligation to look out for Sakura as far as the society of magicians are considered, once Tokiomi gave Sakura to the Matou, she was not Rin's sister anymore, therefore looking out for Sakura is part of her own decision. However that was all she could do, since she would not go against the decision her father made.
I disagree with this. She is still Sakura's sister, no matter what Tokiomi says. Further, she does care for her, and to let go of that without ensuring that Sakura is OK is just nasty.

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I say Sakura was selfish because, her character would have forsaken everything for Shirou making her love for Shirou a very selfish one. And that would be similar to the mindset that Shirou has during the HF route.
How is loving someone "selfish"?

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I noticed that a lot of the dislike pointed at routes not HF is because the Sakura situation is not resolved, yeah well her character completely disappeared during the earlier routes in other words she was insignificant in those routes therefore by those routes standards and since Sakura is deemed not important, the other routes are happy. And its always nice to assume that if and only if Shirou finds out about Zoken, then Sakura can be saved. And he would save her but that would be the big IF in the earlier 2 routes.
The fact that Sakura's situation isn't explicitly mentioned does not mean that it's OK to leave her to suffer.

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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Why is she shitting on her? Because she hasn't factored in why Sakura is unhappy unless she's around Shirou?
Because she takes the only person that gives Sakura's life any meaning whatsoever and runs off to London with him, without even checking up on Sakura's situation at all.

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If that's the case can I just point that if that's not a factor anymore, then you would acknowledge that she's totally in line to do what she likes, right?
But how is it "not a factor"?

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It's not hard to guess why Sakura is always unhappy *cough*Shinji*cough*.
Except no, because he's dead (or being nicer) and she's still unhappy.

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In any case it's more than possible that Rin already checked up on why and couldn't find anything wrong (Like in that scene where she goes off screen with Sakura to patch things up with her).
Then she didn't fucking look closely enough, did she...?

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Or she may have simply gauged how reasonable it was from Shirou who also decided it's no problem to leave Sakura without a second thought.
How the hell is that "reasonable"? Shirou doesn't even know that she's sad, because she's always happy around him, and that in itself should only throw up more problems, unless Rin decides to be a selfish uncaring bitch and shit all over her own fucking sister without a second thought.

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Okay, first things first. They were more than just a bunch of orphans to Shirou. That was made all too clear in the VN and I think you're seriously undermining what they meant to Shirou.
They mean a hell of a lot less than Sakura does.

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Secondly could he have reasonably saved Sakura? No. The only way for Shirou to save Sakura in HF was for Sakura to become Dark Sakura and become suicidal enough to rip the worm zoken out of her body, and Shirou to see and use Rule Breaker.
He could have at least tried, and he would certainly blame himself ofr not noticing.

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What I'm saying is that whilst Shirou might care more for Sakura it's not significant enough for him to treat her more seperately.
In what way is someone who he sees as family dying without him even noticing that something was wrong and at least trying to help her the same as a bunch of orphans dying?

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I think this is actually the reason why Sakura's fate was made ambiguous in the other two routes in the first place. Because this was how he would've treated her tragedy.
Bullshit.

Shirou would not have just forgotten about it, he's too caring for that, and he sure as hell isn't going to overlook the fact that a fucking girl who he knows was tortured to death under his fucking nose....

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I think it's likely. Consider how little Sakura came up in the other two arcs, how litle she mattered when Shirou made the deicison to leave town with Rin and now times that tenfold and you've got an idea of how little Sakura is going to mean to Shirou from now on. Imagine if Shirou is already embroiled in another conlifct (as only Shirou could be) and then finds out that Sakura's dead. Do you think he's going to be any position to leave that conflict and get the next plane to Fukuyu? I don't think so. If Shirou plans to become a superhero then unless he has Facebook I don't see him keeping a significant contact with Sakura.
What, so she comes over every fucking day for a year, he sees her as "family" and he's just going to fucking forget about her like that? And not even mourn her fucking death?

You might think Shirou is an uncaring asshole, but I sure as hell don't.
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Old 2011-10-09, 03:58   Link #3823
Haak
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I'm going to put my debate with Cherry Lover under spoiler tags. Anyone who doesn't wish to see or has a problem with it for whatever strange reason, doesn't have to look anymore. And in the future, if anyone wants to give me a neg rep then please make sure you state a reason, otherwise I won't know what it is I'm doing wrong.

Spoiler for space:
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Last edited by Haak; 2011-10-09 at 10:37.
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Old 2011-10-09, 08:59   Link #3824
Jaden
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Magi are inhumane in many ways. The lives of their ancestors ride in their magic crests, that ambition and pride is their highest priority. Rin lost her guidance quite early and had a good environment, so she grew up to be more normal. But even normal people don't love their relatives unconditionally. Rin and Sakura had hardly spoken for like ten years.

In HF they bump into each other in the war and open their hearts to one another, then regain their relationship. In the other stories they don't, and continue to be distant. I don't think there is anything strange with that. Certainly HF is the happier ending to the main human characters, but I don't find the other endings to be unreasonable or out of character.
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Old 2011-10-09, 12:39   Link #3825
Cherry_Lover
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Spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
Magi are inhumane in many ways. The lives of their ancestors ride in their magic crests, that ambition and pride is their highest priority.
Magi are, by and large, total assholes. Rin and Sakura are not, because they're fundamentally decent people, but if Rin decides to go down that "asshole" route then honestly I don't want her to have a "happy ending", especially not at Sakura's expense.

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Rin lost her guidance quite early and had a good environment, so she grew up to be more normal.
Erm, what?

Since when did Rin have a "good environment"?

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But even normal people don't love their relatives unconditionally. Rin and Sakura had hardly spoken for like ten years.
Which is Rin's fucking fault, along with her idiot father. Sakura couldn't seek her out, because Zouken explicitly forbade it, but there's no reason Rin could not other than caring more about some fucking 400-year-old pact that they'd already broken anyway.

Quote:
In HF they bump into each other in the war and open their hearts to one another, then regain their relationship. In the other stories they don't, and continue to be distant. I don't think there is anything strange with that. Certainly HF is the happier ending to the main human characters, but I don't find the other endings to be unreasonable or out of character.
Because they clearly still care about each other. The way Rin acts towards Sakura in Fate and UBW makes that quite clear. In the short-term, she may not overcome her father's idiocy enough to actually reconcile with her sister, but I don't see Rin just forgetting about her entirely.
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Old 2011-10-09, 13:26   Link #3826
Haak
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Spoiler for space:
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Last edited by Haak; 2011-10-09 at 14:15.
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Old 2011-10-13, 04:02   Link #3827
Reckoner
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Mandatory F/S N fagging for this song. I might even like it more than Emiya.



I'm kind of skeptical of Kaijura's abilities to bring anything like this to the table in her OST for fate/zero.

Last edited by Reckoner; 2011-10-18 at 01:17.
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Old 2011-10-13, 10:33   Link #3828
LostHanyou
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Hikari to Yami is the real badass fight theme of the series. But really, the FSN ost had some amazing soundtrack. Not expecting f/z to be as memorable, honestly.
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Old 2011-10-13, 10:51   Link #3829
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Originally Posted by LostHanyou View Post
^
Hikari to Yami is the real badass fight theme of the series. But really, the FSN ost had some amazing soundtrack. Not expecting f/z to be as memorable, honestly.
It really did. Somehow the composer went under the radar. I think it's Haga Keita, right??
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Old 2011-10-13, 12:06   Link #3830
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It really did. Somehow the composer went under the radar. I think it's Haga Keita, right??
Yeah, it's Haga Keita. Don't know anything else he did. Of course his music in F/SN was memorable (though I'm not really that fond of the song you posted above somehow) but since we're dealing with a totally different medium and a totally different style here I doubt we can expect anything in that direction. But we should give the anime-music time and scenes to prove itself, since we often remember the best soundtracks with the best scenes along them (make the good scenes the soundtrack good? Or the good soundtrack the scenes? Or both? Or whatever? XDDD). But I think there is a high probability Kajiura won't do an Emiya remix, I don'
t remember her doing something like this before though it could be possible here since a lot of fans would request it and there was a scene it went along really well in the Sound Drama.

Sorry for this lengthy answer, if you wish to discuss this issue further let's move to the OST thread.
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Old 2011-10-13, 19:09   Link #3831
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So, can someone explain the Lesser and Greater Grastils? I've looked at the wiki but I'm still lost about it.
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Old 2011-10-14, 00:55   Link #3832
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From what I understand from reading the original VN...

The Greater Grail is the actual main source of the Grail wars. It collects mana from the surrounding area over time in order to facilitate the grail war, a process that generally takes 60 years to complete. The primary function of the Great Grail and the purpose for the grail wars in the first place is to open a pathway to the Root. If I recall correctly, the Great Grail is also what summons the servants and selects the masters. In essence, almost everything in the war is done by the great grail.

The Lesser Grail is created seperately for each war. When they speak of the 'vessel' for the grail, they generally are speaking of the Lesser Grail, ie Illya in the fifth war and so on. The purpose of the Lesser Grail is to collect the spirits of the fallen Servants and hold them until the end of the grail war. Once it has collected 6 Servants (or possibly just enough energy) and once enough time passes, the Lesser Grail activates to open a pathway to the Greater Grail in order to provide the mana to grant the prize to the winner.

Since the Greater Grail was corrupted, whenever the Lesser Grail opened the pathway to the Greater Grail it would start pouring out the corrupted energy (which materialized as the black mud). In most routes and in Fate Zero, the heroes attempt to solve the problem by destroying the Lesser Grail, which while closing the connection to the Great Grail, doesn't really solve the problem of the corruption.

In Heaven's Feel Illya closes the gate to the Great Grail which stops the corruption from leaking out as well. The Cavern then caves in due to the battle overtop of it at the end of the story destroying the Greater Grail. Whether the cave-in was augmented by Kiritsugu's efforts, I suppose we'll have to ask Nasu :x


Also keep in mind I'm recalling all this purely from memory, so I could be wrong on some of the finer details :x

Last edited by TwilightsCall; 2011-10-16 at 19:34. Reason: for derping up Route and Root >.<
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Old 2011-10-15, 10:45   Link #3833
cecil
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Wow... just wow.
I cant believe you guys delete alumnox post. Well since the mod says we ask that in the don't know what other thread can you please please alumnox reupload the information. I asked his insight in the matter because I couldn't understood the DAMN WIKI and to this point its the best one answering but hey... who cares right ?
Thanks for "answering" my question about the church but its pretty much what I already read . How exactly they don't care for something that one way or another can destroy the world.
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Old 2011-10-15, 11:21   Link #3834
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So if I'm getting this correct, the Lesser Grail is made separately for each war. And when it's destroyed/purified that closes off the threat of the Greater Grail. So what happens when Waver disables and later dismantels the Greater Grail? Is the curruption released into the world or does it just go away? What exactly happens to it?
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Old 2011-10-15, 11:29   Link #3835
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Originally Posted by cecil View Post
Wow... just wow.
I cant believe you guys delete alumnox post. Well since the mod says we ask that in the don't know what other thread can you please please alumnox reupload the information. I asked his insight in the matter because I couldn't understood the DAMN WIKI and to this point its the best one answering but hey... who cares right ?
Thanks for "answering" my question about the church but its pretty much what I already read . How exactly they don't care for something that one way or another can destroy the world.
Lol no need to jump from a building. Just ask the question where the mod suggested and Ill answer it the best I can.

The church thing is really interesting but I'm afraid I don't have permission to explain things anymore beyond superficial answers so what I can tell you is that for the fateverse page 265 from the complete materials collection. The church although they care for lives is not really in charge of protecting or saving them their job is to protect the souls but not the people or their bodies who are just vessels.

There are very good "dots" connecting the cease of hostilities between the church and the magic association, the Tohsaka family and its embroilment with them, when how and why it was formed, the Assembly of the Eighth Sacrament, the burial agency and a long etc. Look for that information for yourself (sorry) and that pretty much will let you understand why the church works as an arbitrary.
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Originally Posted by .:Jason:. View Post
So if I'm getting this correct, the Lesser Grail is made separately for each war. And when it's destroyed/purified that closes off the threat of the Greater Grail. So what happens when Waver disables and later dismantels the Greater Grail? Is the curruption released into the world or does it just go away? What exactly happens to it?
Avenger comes forth to the fate reality from the swirl of root using energy from the origin to manifest itself (Caren Ortensia's - fate hollow ataraxia and Dead Apostles extra material the section of the corruption of alaya) so you can do whatever you want to the system Avenger will remain in it because of his special class skill as long as its not purified from it or he cast off the skill.

Edit..

Pure speculation: Even when he is nothing else that just disembody energy I think its still a paradox so Alaya will hinder it at some point (what she does in my opinion in hollow ataraxia) to eventually remove him.
Spoiler for IMAGE FROM HA:
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Old 2011-10-15, 13:22   Link #3836
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Originally Posted by TwilightsCall View Post

The Cavern then caves in due to the battle overtop of it at the end of the story destroying the Greater Grail. Whether the cave-in was augmented by Kiritsugu's efforts, I suppose we'll have to ask Nasu :x

Not quite and Nasu already answer this questions. if you want you can ask in the really really spoiling thread and i can answer it.

spoilers here
Spoiler:
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Old 2011-10-16, 07:10   Link #3837
Aqua Knight
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When did Shirou use Rho Aias in HF?
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Old 2011-10-16, 07:18   Link #3838
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He used it in his fight against Saber alter, IIRC.
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Old 2011-10-16, 07:19   Link #3839
Haak
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When did Shirou use Rho Aias in HF?
Against Alter Saber when she was fighting Rider

[edit]

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Old 2011-10-16, 15:51   Link #3840
Altima of the Gates
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .:Jason:. View Post
So if I'm getting this correct, the Lesser Grail is made separately for each war. And when it's destroyed/purified that closes off the threat of the Greater Grail. So what happens when Waver disables and later dismantels the Greater Grail? Is the curruption released into the world or does it just go away? What exactly happens to it?
As long as the gate isn't opened, AM can't come out from the other side. Dismantling the system and destroying the giant magic circle in the cavern under Ryuudo Temple will end his link to this plane for good.

Why it came out through Sakura and why Kotomine was able to use it, was because the Gate to the other side was opened. It can't be purified because it's source is on the other side, so what you need to do is to close the gate (the link to this world) to end the threat or destroy the magic circle either before or after the gate is opened.
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