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Old 2013-05-24, 20:29   Link #4261
Lhklan
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You're not suppose to feel excitement and feeling of this epic war all the time. Those slice of life scenes a bigger picture, showing us how the characters lives in their daily life.
Beside, didn't you used to complain in the Nanoha thread about how we don't see anything?
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Old 2013-05-24, 21:37   Link #4262
Sansker
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Even so doesn’t mean you need to bore people just so we can get the unimportant things like: Saber likes Shirou’s food more than British cooking (Yeah, British food taste bad, never hear that one before) or Fujimura is bad cooking and Saber is like a little kid hitting Shirou because of it. When you give me to choose between boring shenanigans or the plot about a war with magic, ancient beings and legends… I think I prefer the latter.
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Old 2013-05-24, 21:50   Link #4263
Endscape
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Even so doesnít mean you need to bore people just so we can get the unimportant things like: Saber likes Shirouís food more than British cooking (Yeah, British food taste bad, never hear that one before) or Fujimura is bad cooking and Saber is like a little kid hitting Shirou because of it. When you give me to choose between boring shenanigans or the plot about a war with magic, ancient beings and legendsÖ I think I prefer the latter.
You're simply misunderstanding the visual novel genre. Unlike anime for example, VN handle a lot more comtent continuously.You can't possibly have fighting all the time, so they have other stuff. Plus a lot of those scenes have character development and subtle foreshadowing, so they play a significant role.

BTW, Saber wasn't complaining about British food per say, just that the food 1500 years ago didn't taste good.
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Old 2013-05-24, 22:23   Link #4264
Sansker
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Is not misunderstanding. Ok, I will admit I am not a fan of VN but I can find good stuff here. My point is that, at times, the things we break in to in the middle of the action bits are pointless and boring. Character development and foreshadowing is good, but there is ways to let that out. Really is odd to go from a serious life or death situation of action and tension just to cut to “Who will make dinner?” and have a comic relief scene over an ancient king being angry at her bad food. Keep the tone or balance a little better the elements. FSN doesn’t always get it right.

I know with Saber, but she was British and she says the food wasn’t good… is not even a hard connection to make. Is like the Black Ranger being black and the Yellow Ranger being Asian, it just comes on its own.
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Old 2013-05-24, 23:57   Link #4265
Lhklan
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Is not misunderstanding. Ok, I will admit I am not a fan of VN but I can find good stuff here. My point is that, at times, the things we break in to in the middle of the action bits are pointless and boring. Character development and foreshadowing is good, but there is ways to let that out. Really is odd to go from a serious life or death situation of action and tension just to cut to ďWho will make dinner?Ē and have a comic relief scene over an ancient king being angry at her bad food. Keep the tone or balance a little better the elements. FSN doesnít always get it right.
Nope. There's a lot of scenes in between, dealing with the aftermath of the previous life or death situation that they got into - healing, analysing what happened, etc... - before it get to the light hearted slices of life. Beside, once the shit start to hit the fan - and it's pretty easier to notice too. Just take note when Taiga stop coming to Shirou's house and you know that things are about to get a whole lot uglier.

Quote:
I know with Saber, but she was British and she says the food wasnít goodÖ is not even a hard connection to make. Is like the Black Ranger being black and the Yellow Ranger being Asian, it just comes on its own.
Again, like Endscape said, Saber was complaining about food in her times in general. Which actually kinda make sense, seeing as the recipes and technology is much more refined during the 5th War then it was in the Camelot era.
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Old 2013-05-25, 00:39   Link #4266
Sansker
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Yeah you are right, still doesn’t make the other scenes any less boring. Still a joke, I don’t care what Saber likes to eat. In fact we never saw her eating anything in Zero and I didn’t miss it.
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Old 2013-05-25, 01:07   Link #4267
Endscape
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Yeah you are right, still doesnít make the other scenes any less boring. Still a joke, I donít care what Saber likes to eat. In fact we never saw her eating anything in Zero and I didnít miss it.
Comparing F/Sn to F/Z makes no sense, considering F/Z is 4 volume light novel that spent a lot of time following other people.

I repeat, these daily life scenes are there for character development, plus foreshadowing and worldbuilding.
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Old 2013-05-25, 04:19   Link #4268
Lhklan
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Yeah you are right, still doesnít make the other scenes any less boring. Still a joke, I donít care what Saber likes to eat. In fact we never saw her eating anything in Zero and I didnít miss it.
Because she didn't need to? From what I remember, Saber's summoning in F/SN was botched up.
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Old 2013-05-25, 11:17   Link #4269
Sansker
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That is a possibility, still not the point I wanted to make. Overall is just the impression those scenes make on me, despite their function or lack of it, again is really poor. Add there just to bore others, lacks a consistent feeling that could help FSN to be better. Not that is bad, just that after thinking about it isn’t that great as I think the first time around.
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Old 2013-05-25, 12:05   Link #4270
Lhklan
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That is a possibility, still not the point I wanted to make. Overall is just the impression those scenes make on me, despite their function or lack of it, again is really poor. Add there just to bore others, lacks a consistent feeling that could help FSN to be better. Not that is bad, just that after thinking about it isnít that great as I think the first time around.
"Just to bore others" Nope. Don't use your opinions as facts. There are people out there who find these scenes interesting, because they gave more depth to the characters than just what we see in combat scenes.
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Old 2013-05-25, 12:39   Link #4271
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Semantics, there are people who don’t even like this thing for that matter. There is really no point on going in that direction because in the end nothing is true and everything is permitted.
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Old 2013-05-25, 13:12   Link #4272
Lhklan
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Semantics, there are people who don’t even like this thing for that matter. There is really no point on going in that direction because in the end nothing is true and everything is permitted.
And now I'm reminded why I HATE arguing with you.
Let me just cut this short: Anytime you state your opinions, please add a notification about it. Ex: For me, in my opinions, etc... Don't just go around spouting your opinions as facts.
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Old 2013-05-25, 13:55   Link #4273
Sansker
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Sure.

Anyway, back to the original topic. We already saw how this works with the routes. When each route works on its own with their own problems, as a whole they look even worse. Elements from other routes need to be translated so the others make sense, which just seem to enforce the fact they should not separate the plot elements like this. Even characters that don’t appear in one route just to show up in the other, like Zouken or even Avenger (Or whatever his name is).
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Old 2013-05-25, 14:08   Link #4274
GDB
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You're supposed to play them in order. By doing the Fate route, the UBW route makes sense. By doing both Fate and UBW routes, Heaven's Feel makes sense. If you did not do them in order, it's your own fault, since the game forces you to do so unless you downloaded a completed file.

While some scenes in latter routes enhance earlier routes, they are by no means necessary to understand what happens. It appears that you just want everything to happen at once. If that's the case, stick to anime, as visual novels are clearly not for you. But be prepared for hackneyed story-telling, as you can see from the Fate/Stay Night anime and manga what happens when you try to force all the routes together.

The stories are very different and cannot work together. It's already been explained to you why characters appear in one route and not another, or play more significant roles in one route over another. There's no point in continuing the discussion when you blatantly ignore these points and only continue to complain about it.
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Old 2013-05-25, 14:22   Link #4275
Sansker
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Because the explanation are just a way to give away what, in the end, I can’t really put myself behind as story telling detail. I never say it can’t be explain, I am saying isn’t kind of stellar. And there is no point to say it can’t work in a more open story when we already have an example where a Fate series does give more room to all Master/Servant teams. FSN doesn’t do it for any reasons they might had and they create something good, just not flawed.

The discussion is over if this can affect the routes quality and I think it does. Because you can tell me yeah, Zouken wanted to play bingo during the other routes or he take vacations on Hawaii or was waiting for things to happen on its own, etc. that isn’t the point. He didn’t appear and might as well seem he was just not in there at all. You can’t really go away with the “little hints” if in the end the character was so irrelevant to the previous routes we can pretend he was dead on those. Point being, some characters are kind of waste in other routes. I think it does matter and I can’t really just take it, you can. So yes, we agree to disagree there.
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Old 2013-05-25, 14:35   Link #4276
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Pretty sure he was mentioned in both Fate and UBW routes during those slice of life scenes. I believe he called the Emiya estate to have Sakura come home.
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Old 2013-05-25, 14:50   Link #4277
Endscape
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Because the explanation are just a way to give away what, in the end, I canít really put myself behind as story telling detail. I never say it canít be explain, I am saying isnít kind of stellar. And there is no point to say it canít work in a more open story when we already have an example where a Fate series does give more room to all Master/Servant teams. FSN doesnít do it for any reasons they might had and they create something good, just not flawed.
As I already stated earlier, there is no point in comparing F/SN and F/Z, the point of F/SN is to follow Shirou in the Grail War and see how his different choices can lead to a different result.

Quote:
The discussion is over if this can affect the routes quality and I think it does. Because you can tell me yeah, Zouken wanted to play bingo during the other routes or he take vacations on Hawaii or was waiting for things to happen on its own, etc. that isnít the point. He didnít appear and might as well seem he was just not in there at all. You canít really go away with the ďlittle hintsĒ if in the end the character was so irrelevant to the previous routes we can pretend he was dead on those. Point being, some characters are kind of waste in other routes. I think it does matter and I canít really just take it, you can. So yes, we agree to disagree there.
Again, the point of F/SN is to show how different the Grail War can be, depending on Shirou's choices. You've already heard a perfectly logical reason for Zouken not appearing in Fate and UBW. What's important for the characters is the whole, focusing on how a character appears in one particular route is like judging a character in a book by reading two chapters.

If you really cannot understand this, then visual novels just aren't for you.
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Old 2013-05-25, 15:59   Link #4278
Thryfe
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What originally had me wondering if Zouken was dead or not was that possible euphemism and his absence, but like everyone has said he doesn't get a chance to utilize Sakura in the other routes. Which makes a lot of sense, but the more I think about it and look back at the first 3 days of each respective route I end up asking myself why?

The only notable difference is that Shirou walks Sakura home. The scene that Zouken says he has all the pieces and just needs to make a small opening to take advantage of Sakura isn't the result of some major deviation. He mentions Rin winning and that creates the opening in Sakura he needs. If that's all it takes why didn't he do it in Fate? all the pieces are essentially the same. The explanation for that is like what people say, Zouken realizes the connection between Shirou and Sakura. Even then what is so important that happens during those 3 days for him to decide that?
He already knows about shirou because shirou mentions going to the Matou house a few times to play with Shinji before they were estranged. Sakura joins the archery club because of Shirou. Shirou punches out Shinji after he finds out he hit Sakura, that's a huge sign saying hey I like this girl. Only differences in those 3 days are Shirou walks home Sakura as opposed to sakura and Fuji-nee stopping him when he tries to in fate, and they make lunch together. Tbh they've probably made lunch together a bunch of times before during the whole cooperative year thing. I'm not saying im right or claiming stuff as facts but when I think about it this way it just makes me think why didn't Zouken show up? The pieces are there in all routes and nothing major changes in those first days. With that said, I encourage anyone to pick apart my post and explain where I may be wrong I'm just generally interested in a concrete reason why he doesn't do what he does in HF, its still a mystery to me.
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Old 2013-05-26, 10:45   Link #4279
Altima of the Gates
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He originally made her to be a grail that malfunctions because he is just copying the Einzberns' methods and forcing her body to gain resiliency through suffocation, poisoning, and torture methods, also trying to break her mind, so she would succumb to being the grail and be the vessel, it came to the point that nothing he could do externally fazed her and she wasn't fooled by him. In the flashback scene in HF, Bailing Hand, on day 9 right after Shirou decides to protect Sakura and goes back to the Church, it showed how the AM connection came out.

It connected what happened after Sakura pales when seeing the mark of the chosen on Shirou and why she gave Rider to Shinji, besides the fact she didn't want to fight. However, this time Zouken has met with Shirou and now has a better idea of how to use both Rin and Shirou against Sakura. It was her fear after seeing his mark of the chosen and her distrust that Rin would not kill him that spawned that tiny spark of genuine malice that caused the contract to accidentally happen, the gate to open, and for the taint to start flowing into Sakura, making her a malfunctioning Lesser Grail. Basically, Zouken's trolling got a response he desired, by getting at the chinks in her armor. The conversation had him luring her in by saying she didn't have to kill all the masters she defeated, and could keep a couple as pets if she wanted, Sakura sees his game and refuses, saying she would give Rider to Shinji anyway, since she has no idea what he'll do if she agrees to fight. And then things would go like they would in the other routes by her making the book and that being the end of it, except for then Zouken trolls her as I said above and the gears move into motion that make her a Lesser Grail. That is pretty much the difference between HF and the other routes, Zouken uses as much leverage as he can and gets lucky as the stars align.
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Old 2013-05-26, 19:52   Link #4280
Thryfe
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He should already know how to use Shirou without him going to the house right? Kotomine says the crest worm in Sakura is normally used for reconnaissance, he can see what shes doing and in that first day Sakura sorta flirts with Shirou and Shirou says itll be a problem if Fuji-nee hears her talk like that. Zouken SHOULD know this I think. Also in the Fate route Sakura also sees the mark on Shirou's hand, its bleeding rather than just a bruise and her face pales when she sees that as well. So whats confusing me is that the same events happen albeit a bit differently but should have the same result, if that's the case Zouken had no reason not to act in Fate as well. So I guess it comes down to it in Fate that tiny spark does open for whatever reason since they most definitely had the same conversation. While in HF it does, so its sort of like a what IF scenario then? Is that right? idk its just silly to me that such a tiiiiiny difference means he doesn't act in Fate, he even said himself, he has all the pieces he needs, why would he give up on Sakura after a single conversation. He been waiting 500 years. I guess its just my opinion and im being stubborn lol.
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