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Old 2014-06-22, 11:07   Link #4461
Brother Coa
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Well they improved for me at least. I thought that the story was more complete at the end.
But each to their own I suppose.
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Old 2014-06-22, 15:26   Link #4462
ShadowSamurai365
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I actually feel sorry for Saber fans. It was simply unlucky for "her route" to be Fate, where it seems most characters were infacted by some kind of stupidity disease. If you compared the early parts of the 3 routes, then you would see that Saber herself is a much more interesting and consistent character in UBW and HF, compared to Fate, including her relationship with Shirou, IMO.

I am not sure though what "Saber fans" actually are. Are they people who are actually just liking Saber as character in general? Or are they shippers who want her to come together with Shirou? If it's the former: Do they consider Fate to be the route, where she definitly has the best development, or would it rather be UBW (good end)?
It might be just me misinterpreting things in the different routes, but doesn't it feel like that Saber and Shirou had more camaraderie between each other in the UBW route than the Fate route?
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Old 2014-06-22, 16:32   Link #4463
GreyZone
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It might be just me misinterpreting things in the different routes, but doesn't it feel like that Saber and Shirou had more camaraderie between each other in the UBW route than the Fate route?
Yes, but there are other differences as well. In Fate Saber for some reason wants to attack the Ryudou temple no matter what and goes directly against Shirou's decision by storming the temple without any plan whatsoever, while in UBW she states that it is very foolish to attempt it without a plan and if I remember it correctly, even refers to such an attempt as a "suicide attack".

It seems in Fate Saber is much more hotblooded and as I mentioned before, was also infected with the "stupidity disease" which most characters in the Fate route suffer from.

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I disagree, Fate is ok route. It is not action packed but it has it's moments and it's mostly based on relationship between the two and their struggle to survive and come on top. Lastly, people cannot say that any battle was bad except the Caster one who get sliced by Gil.
The reason why Kotomine is in Fate the way it is is because he is just the observer. The one who move the figures in perfect position and let the show starts. The very reason we don't see Zouken in Fate or UBW is probably because Kotomine hunted him and tried to kill him, only we are not seeing this because of Shirou who don't get involved or even learns about this things.
She is most interesting here because here we actually see her reason to fight ( unlike other routes ) and Shirou's attempts to save her from her own loop by trying to alternate history that cannot be changed. And the ending, the ending was just... perfect. Tow people in love who cannot be together no matter how hard they try. Last episode just made this 100x better.
No matter what, I will never accept the excuse that Kotomine was "shocked for a moment" for letting himself be stabbed by Shirou, although Kotomine is clearly established to be the superior martial artist, who is able to win against a Servant, even if it is just Assassin. Shirou neither had Archer's skills nor his arm in the Fate route and I cannot imagine that a few hours of training with Saber would be enough to be able to successfully attack him like that. Of course, if you did not watch Fate/Zero or played the Heaven's Feel route until then, you wouldn't know about that, however in retrospect, it makes Kotomine look like an idiot, or rather a typical boring comic book villain, who loses because he underestimates his opponent for a moment to show off or whatever his reasons to act like that may be...

As for Zouken, it is as Cherry_Lover said in the Fate/ufotable thread: He did not appear at all, because without Sakura being in a relationship with Shirou, which causes her shadow to unexpectacly appear much sooner than he anticipated, he has no reason to get involved with the 5th holy grail war at all, since he knows that Shinji will fail anyway and he has no reason to take any unnecessary risks.
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Old 2014-06-22, 20:42   Link #4464
Cherry_Lover
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Well they improved for me at least. I thought that the story was more complete at the end.
But each to their own I suppose.
Well, the ending might have been slightly more "complete" in that no-one was really ignored, but that came at the expense of actually making any sense or being any good....
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Old 2014-06-25, 21:44   Link #4465
ShadowSamurai365
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Yes, but there are other differences as well. In Fate Saber for some reason wants to attack the Ryudou temple no matter what and goes directly against Shirou's decision by storming the temple without any plan whatsoever, while in UBW she states that it is very foolish to attempt it without a plan and if I remember it correctly, even refers to such an attempt as a "suicide attack".

It seems in Fate Saber is much more hotblooded and as I mentioned before, was also infected with the "stupidity disease" which most characters in the Fate route suffer from.



No matter what, I will never accept the excuse that Kotomine was "shocked for a moment" for letting himself be stabbed by Shirou, although Kotomine is clearly established to be the superior martial artist, who is able to win against a Servant, even if it is just Assassin. Shirou neither had Archer's skills nor his arm in the Fate route and I cannot imagine that a few hours of training with Saber would be enough to be able to successfully attack him like that. Of course, if you did not watch Fate/Zero or played the Heaven's Feel route until then, you wouldn't know about that, however in retrospect, it makes Kotomine look like an idiot, or rather a typical boring comic book villain, who loses because he underestimates his opponent for a moment to show off or whatever his reasons to act like that may be...

As for Zouken, it is as Cherry_Lover said in the Fate/ufotable thread: He did not appear at all, because without Sakura being in a relationship with Shirou, which causes her shadow to unexpectacly appear much sooner than he anticipated, he has no reason to get involved with the 5th holy grail war at all, since he knows that Shinji will fail anyway and he has no reason to take any unnecessary risks.
Yeah, I realized that there was many differences between the routes (which some differences actually irks me). I was just saying that I feel like the camaraderie (that was shown in the UBW) should have been shown in the Fate route. That way, the Fate route (which was supposed to have Saber has the heroine on the route) would have Shirou's and Saber's relationship develop from strangers to comrades/friends, and then to a couple.
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Old 2014-06-30, 09:12   Link #4466
GreyZone
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Yeah, I realized that there was many differences between the routes (which some differences actually irks me). I was just saying that I feel like the camaraderie (that was shown in the UBW) should have been shown in the Fate route. That way, the Fate route (which was supposed to have Saber has the heroine on the route) would have Shirou's and Saber's relationship develop from strangers to comrades/friends, and then to a couple.
Yes that would have definitly been better than Shirou "forcing her into the ki...", no wrong, he didn't even make her cook meals for him. It seems for Shirou, Saber was supposed to be some passive doll that does nothing at all aside from "being protected"... and depending on the version you play... have sex with him (though that is for a great part Rin's fault).





BTW, has anyone noticed the plot hole in UBW? Rin appearantly has 4 Command Spells...

1. Make Archer Obey in prologue
2. Order Archer not to attack Saber and Shirou until their alliance ends
3. Order Saber to stand back from the "evil mud"

Ater using these 3 command spells she talks about "forcing Saber to destroy the grail" and then the narration proceeds to say that "Tohsaka has 1 more command spell".

I wonder how no one noticed that yet...

Last edited by GreyZone; 2014-06-30 at 09:28.
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Old 2014-06-30, 14:52   Link #4467
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post

BTW, has anyone noticed the plot hole in UBW? Rin appearantly has 4 Command Spells...

1. Make Archer Obey in prologue
2. Order Archer not to attack Saber and Shirou until their alliance ends
3. Order Saber to stand back from the "evil mud"

Ater using these 3 command spells she talks about "forcing Saber to destroy the grail" and then the narration proceeds to say that "Tohsaka has 1 more command spell".

I wonder how no one noticed that yet...
She gained new Command Spells actually. Though the "She has one more Command Spell." line confuses me too, because she only should have used two Command Spells for Saber in UBW.

Apparently, making a new contract gives you new spells. Medea's Master used all his Command Spells before she killed him, yet Kuzuki used at least one Command Spell in one Dead End in UBW. She also gained new Command Spells when she stole Saber by using Rule Breaker and Shirou already used all of his three Command Spells before it happened.
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Old 2014-06-30, 15:37   Link #4468
GreyZone
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She gained new Command Spells actually. Though the "She has one more Command Spell." line confuses me too, because she only should have used two Command Spells for Saber in UBW.

Apparently, making a new contract gives you new spells. Medea's Master used all his Command Spells before she killed him, yet Kuzuki used at least one Command Spell in one Dead End in UBW. She also gained new Command Spells when she stole Saber by using Rule Breaker and Shirou already used all of his three Command Spells before it happened.
I think UBW was very leisurely when it came to the whole Command Spell thing. Tohsaka implied that Shirou could just renew his contract with Saber, even though he used up all of his Command Spells. I see that as ridiculous, because then every master could just continuesly spam command spells that strenghten the Servant in some way and then just "renew the contract", as long as the Servant agrees to such a strategy and doesn't betray the master. That sounds way too convinient.

Moreover If Tohsaka got 3 new command spells, then she should have had 2 left when she was inside the "grail monster" with Shinji, but instead it was just one. Maybe the whole thing with 3 new command spell was a skill that is exclusive to Caster? After all normally Servants shouldn't even be able to become Masters...

I got a feeling that Nasu got himself a bit confused regarding the command spell issue, when he wrote Unlimited Blade Works.
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Old 2014-06-30, 16:04   Link #4469
Lorhand
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Moreover If Tohsaka got 3 new command spells, then she should have had 2 left when she was inside the "grail monster" with Shinji, but instead it was just one.
Basically what I meant when I said

Quote:
Though the "She has one more Command Spell." line confuses me too, because she only should have used two Command Spells for Saber in UBW.
As in, in total, she used two spells as Saber's Master in the whole route.

My headcanon regarding the UBW Command Spell issue:

Shirou uses all three Command Spells on Saber --> Saber gets stolen by Caster, Caster gains three new spells because Caster and Rule Breaker are haxx --> Caster uses one to order Saber to kill Rin and Shirou --> Caster dies and Saber's forced contract with her ends --> Rin makes a normal contract with Saber and gets the remaining two Command Spells --> Rin uses one Spell to stop Saber and another one to destroy the Grail.

Then it would make sense why she only has one spell left after stopping Saber.
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Old 2014-06-30, 16:07   Link #4470
GDB
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Though that's completely contradictory to how Command Spells worked in Fate/Zero.

Easiest way to think about it is just that it was a mistake to say she used a Command Spell to keep Saber out of the mud, or that she didn't actually have any left and whoever thought/said she did was mistaken.
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Old 2014-06-30, 16:16   Link #4471
Lorhand
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Though that's completely contradictory to how Command Spells worked in Fate/Zero.
Why? The only one who made a new contract was Kirei and he is kind of an exception.

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Originally Posted by Fate Zero Volume 3

"In theory, [my Command Spells] should have returned to the Grail. The Command Seals themselves are things that the Grail bestows. People who have lost their eligibility as a Master because of the loss of their Servant, their Command Seals should be reclaimed back by the Grail. Yet, if there appears a Servant whose contract has been lifted because of the loss of his Master, the Grail will then redistribute the unused Command Seals it had previously reclaimed to new contractors."
After Caster's death, her unused Command Spells that she gained through her contract with Saber are redistributed to Rin. Caster used one, so two are left.
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Old 2014-06-30, 16:28   Link #4472
GreyZone
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OK then most makes sense... We can suppose that creating brand new Command Spells is a special ability that from the known characters only Caster (and possibly Zouken, due to his Makiri background) possesses.

Aside from that it seems the regular command spells are not master-bound, but servant-bound (which makes sense, because you cannot use the command spell on a servant that is not yours). That is the only explanation for how Rin got the 2 Command Spells from Caster.

But that does not explain how Shirou could make a contract with Saber, if Rin used her last Command Spell... I see there is still a few debatable things, even with this explanation.
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Old 2014-07-08, 21:47   Link #4473
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But that does not explain how Shirou could make a contract with Saber, if Rin used her last Command Spell... I see there is still a few debatable things, even with this explanation.
Because anyone can make a contract with a Servant (see Kozuki) whether they have command spells or not. You just can't make a contract with a Servant currently bound by command spells to another Master. Once the command spells are gone it seems that its more like there's nothing enforcing the contract rather than saying that it immediately breaks. So Shirou could easily create a new contract with Saber once she wasn't bound by command spells any more. He probably won't get new ones with a new contract, but it should still be enough to serve as an anchor for her (and for a better mage to supply her with mana).
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Old 2014-07-08, 23:34   Link #4474
GreyZone
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Because anyone can make a contract with a Servant (see Kozuki) whether they have command spells or not. You just can't make a contract with a Servant currently bound by command spells to another Master. Once the command spells are gone it seems that its more like there's nothing enforcing the contract rather than saying that it immediately breaks. So Shirou could easily create a new contract with Saber once she wasn't bound by command spells any more. He probably won't get new ones with a new contract, but it should still be enough to serve as an anchor for her (and for a better mage to supply her with mana).
Kouzuki only worked because Caster knows how to create command spells. But you may be right... It is still possible for masters to continue supplying a Servant with mana, even without Command Spells, as long as the trust is there.
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Old 2014-07-13, 16:46   Link #4475
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Kouzuki only worked because Caster knows how to create command spells. But you may be right... It is still possible for masters to continue supplying a Servant with mana, even without Command Spells, as long as the trust is there.
I think the command spells and the contract are seperate. The contract is, I think, just a standard contract (Rin makes a similar contract with Shirou in UBW, and then proceeds to call him her "servant"), the only thing that is unusual is the command spells. For example, I would assume Sakura must have re-contracted Rider post-HF, because Shirou used Rule Breaker on her and that should have broken their existing contract. There was no Grail to hand out command spells, but she still made a contract to supply Rider with prana.
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Old 2014-07-25, 01:43   Link #4476
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Anyone have a rough estimation as to how many hours length is Fate, UBW, and HF?
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Old 2014-07-25, 05:15   Link #4477
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60 to 80 would be the closest estimate.
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Old 2014-07-26, 09:11   Link #4478
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For the Archer vs Lancer schoolyard fight in the beginning, all the CG's were only their swords clashing. Is this going to be a recurring thing for the rest of the fight scenes? I was hoping it'd actually show the character's themselves fighting.
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Old 2014-07-26, 09:26   Link #4479
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For the Archer vs Lancer schoolyard fight in the beginning, all the CG's were only their swords clashing. Is this going to be a recurring thing for the rest of the fight scenes? I was hoping it'd actually show the character's themselves fighting.
Often visual novel companies don't have the budget to animate everything, because of this they will often try to be creative with still images. The same applies to Fate/stay night, the way how the Archer vs. Lancer schoolyard fight was represented is how all the fights in F/SN are represented.
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Old 2014-07-26, 20:42   Link #4480
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It might be just me misinterpreting things in the different routes, but doesn't it feel like that Saber and Shirou had more camaraderie between each other in the UBW route than the Fate route?
Agreed. They didn't work as a team in Fate, whereas they did in UBW. The
Spoiler for spoiler:
was the most irritating part of Fate, among other things. I almost quit reading Fate/Stay because of it. Glad I stuck through though, UBW was amazing, as was Heavens Feel.

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Originally Posted by chaos_alfa View Post
Often visual novel companies don't have the budget to animate everything, because of this they will often try to be creative with still images. The same applies to Fate/stay night, the way how the Archer vs. Lancer schoolyard fight was represented is how all the fights in F/SN are represented.
There is one animated VN out there, School Days, and the animation is so aweful that I prefer still images, lol. VNs are ridiculesley long, so it would cost a bundle to animate it all (and do so well, unlike School Days)



Anyways with the new Realta Nua translation, I've started reading FSN again.

Halp.
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