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Old 2009-03-08, 17:42   Link #1121
kaizer63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
The problem lies in that that Caliburn is not one of Saber's Noble Phantasm's. If berserker can only be defeated by Excalibur in 'Noble Phantasm form', so to say, how come Caliburn, which is not a Noble Phantasm, defeat Berserker?
Caliburn IS one of Saber's Noble Phantasms. It's a mythical weapon she used in her lifetime and a legend has grown up around it associating it with her and granting it powers. In this case, the power of the kingship (and an attack that can only be used by the true king of England). Shirou doesn't just project swords, he projects complete swords--all of their history and power. The Caliburn he projected is no different than the Caliburn Saber wielded in her life (except for the rank down).

As for the reason Saber can't just pull Caliburn out of nowhere-- she simply doesn't have it anymore. I'd imagine that if she were a true servant she'd be able to use Caliburn as well as Excalibur because Servants are normally pulled from their prime and have access to all the NP's they used in their lifetime but the incomplete Saber didn't have Caliburn so the only one she could use was Shirou's projection of it.

Edit- Also, you seem to be misinterpreting the way Noble Phantasm's work. The weapon is always a Noble Phantasm with its own statistics, normally just a ranking, but sometimes they provide other things like K&B's magic resistance. A NP in the form of a weapon can always be used as a weapon, and in most cases its rank will never matter (Berserker's God Hand is the only exception that I know of). The difference is that for most NPs there's also another "special ability" that can only be used by declaring its name. This attack or form is considered a different NP that is part of the base weapon but not counted for the likes of God Hand immunity. This activation normally requires a mana-input as well.
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Old 2009-03-08, 18:37   Link #1122
Keroko
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Right, so I made a little slip-up considering the meaning of a Noble Phantasm. However, the mean reason I am contesting Caliburn being 'activated' is because it was never listed as such in the Status Screen, whereas the Boundary Field, Excalibur, and Avalon were, despite it being such a critical attack in the Fate route. I'll have to re-read the route to be sure, but I don't recall the name being called out either.
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Old 2009-03-08, 22:43   Link #1123
ShinMasaki
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Well, I guess looking over the details of the Noble Phantasms, I can see what I overlooked.

We are assuming that Saber is fighting with Excalibur when she actually isn't. It's Invisible Air she is fighting with.

Invisible Air, the wind that masks Excalibur is what Saber initially attacks with. Think of it as a foam bat. On the exterior is soft foam that doesn't hurt too much, but at the core is a much sturdier damage dealing base. When you hit with a foam bat, only the foam deals contact and the impact is only foam.

The same can be said about Invisible Air. Although Excalibur is the base, only the Invisible Air is attacking. Invisible Air is ranked as a rank C Noble Phantasm. When Invisible Air is released and Excalibur is revealed, Excalibur itself is a rank A++ Noble Phantasm.

Berserker's abilities due to his Divinity + Berserkerness makes him immune to all damage from attacks below that of A rank. Therefore Invisible Air may not be able to hurt Berserker even if he let it hit him, but Excalibur would definitely be able to kill him. The Excaliblast at full power could very well kill him 12+ times over in a single shot, but Saber was not able to use this due to lack of mana.

If we consider Caliburn to be of lower rank than Excalibur, it could very well be an A rank or A+ rank Noble Phantasm. I suppose it would have to be an A+ initially since Shirou's projections are one rank lower than the original. Combine that with it being wielded by Saber (or Saber's knowledge of the sword recreated through Shirou) and that it is a very high level and powerful Holy sword, it alone could very well destroy Berserker.

Excalibur - A++
Caliburn - A+
Shirou's Caliburn - A
Invisible Air - C

What I want to know is, since Saber was already going to use the Excaliblast (only to be stopped by Shirou) and reveal her true identity, why didn't she just release Invisible Air and fight with Excalibur instead of the Invisible Air. Excalibur as a sword is definitely strong enough to take on Berserker. That and releasing the magic that conceals Invisible Air should have made it easier on Saber since she wouldn't have to spend magic points into keeping the blade concealed.
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Old 2009-03-08, 23:47   Link #1124
rastilin
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Aren't you over thinking this? Invisible air is just an illusion, an illusion that can be burned away for a powerful long range attack but nevertheless just an illusion. Saber fights with her A+ sword the entire time.

Quote:
What I want to know is, since Saber was already going to use the Excaliblast (only to be stopped by Shirou) and reveal her true identity, why didn't she just release Invisible Air and fight with Excalibur instead of the Invisible Air. Excalibur as a sword is definitely strong enough to take on Berserker. That and releasing the magic that conceals Invisible Air should have made it easier on Saber since she wouldn't have to spend magic points into keeping the blade concealed.
Because invisible air is an advantage, it's hard to parry a sword you can't see. Not unless you perfectly figure out it's shape like Assasin or you've seen it before like Archer.

Incidentally, the rank-down should be something like A+ to B+. If it's only A+ to A then other parts of the story make less sense, for <spoiler> reasons.
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Old 2009-03-09, 01:02   Link #1125
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by rastilin View Post
Incidentally, the rank-down should be something like A+ to B+. If it's only A+ to A then other parts of the story make less sense, for <spoiler> reasons.
There is no "B+".

The ranks go E, D, C, B, A, A+, A++, and EX.
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Old 2009-03-09, 02:14   Link #1126
ShinMasaki
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Well, I could be over thinking it, but if we are trying to get a solid answer as to why Saber couldn't overtake Berserker without the Excaliblast, this is the only valid explanation I can think of. When you go through the weapon descriptions, it says her sword normally is named Invisible Air and it is ranked as a rank C Noble Phantasm.

Next to that, it lists Excalibur. Excalibur is listed as an A++ Noble Phantasm. Of course the description talks about the Excaliblast, but that can't be the only way the sword can be used. If we assume that Invisible Air only enhances Excalibur as it says in the description of Invisible Air (enhances the power of the slash) and is still only a rank C, then normal Excalibur and Caliburn must be trash swords even though they are listed as two of the highest class holy swords ever.

Now this doesn't make sense, so the only explanation I can think of is Saber's invisible sword is only dealing damage equivalent to Invisible Air's rank. When it is released, Excalibur becomes its full form and would be as powerful as it is ranked A++.

Oh and a 1-point downgrade from a probable A+ Caliburn would make Shirou's Caliburn a rank A which puts it at the level able to harm and kill Berserker.
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Old 2009-03-09, 02:15   Link #1127
Blade_Lord
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Quote:
There is no "B+".
No Lancer's Gae Bolg rank rise to B+ in spear of striking death flight mode.

And Archer's K&B is rank C-.
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Old 2009-03-09, 02:38   Link #1128
rastilin
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Saber can overtake Berzerker when...

Spoiler for UBW:


Quote:
Next to that, it lists Excalibur. Excalibur is listed as an A++ Noble Phantasm. Of course the description talks about the Excaliblast, but that can't be the only way the sword can be used. If we assume that Invisible Air only enhances Excalibur as it says in the description of Invisible Air (enhances the power of the slash) and is still only a rank C, then normal Excalibur and Caliburn must be trash swords even though they are listed as two of the highest class holy swords ever.
The description of invisible air only describes it's power as a magic. It's a rank C magic. It says nothing about the sword it's shielding.

Quote:
No Lancer's Gae Bolg rank rise to B+ in spear of striking death flight mode.

And Archer's K&B is rank C-.
Yeah, I'm sure that's right.
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Old 2009-03-09, 02:39   Link #1129
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post
No Lancer's Gae Bolg rank rise to B+ in spear of striking death flight mode.

And Archer's K&B is rank C-.
I stand corrected then.

Still, one step down from "A+" is "A".
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Old 2009-03-09, 03:08   Link #1130
rastilin
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Quote:
I stand corrected then.

Still, one step down from "A+" is "A".
If that's true then it makes...

Spoiler for UBW spoiler:
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Old 2009-03-09, 03:15   Link #1131
Kaisos Erranon
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Archer was still weakened from his 'battle' with Saber in Fate, right?

At full power, he could easily take down Berserker. Just that Berserker took him down before he could be totally pwned by UBW.

Also, a clear difference between GoB and UBW... using GoB doesn't cost Gil prana to use. I think.
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Old 2009-03-09, 03:46   Link #1132
rastilin
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At full power, he could easily take down Berserker. Just that Berserker took him down before he could be totally pwned by UBW.
There's no reason to think Archer uses UBW in the Fate route. There really is no reason to think so, except for the anime.

Quote:
Also, a clear difference between GoB and UBW... using GoB doesn't cost Gil prana to use. I think.
Probably but it barely blips for Archer either.

I'd bet on Archer too but it wouldn't be easy. If he kept to his 4 mile maximum range and moved between every shot, he'd eventually whittle Berzerker down with BPs like he used in the first part of UBW. As long as he exploits his advantage, he can definitely win but killing him 7 times in hand to hand is more than one would expect.
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Old 2009-03-09, 04:32   Link #1133
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
Invisible Air, the wind that masks Excalibur is what Saber initially attacks with. Think of it as a foam bat. On the exterior is soft foam that doesn't hurt too much, but at the core is a much sturdier damage dealing base. When you hit with a foam bat, only the foam deals contact and the impact is only foam.
Except that Invisible Air is noted to increase the cutting power. So rather then a foam bat, you'd be wielding a spiky bat.

Yet, Excalibur doesn't become powerful enough to defeat Berserker until after activated. If Excalibur really is A++ right of the bat, it makes no sense that it didn't cut Berserker from the start, as Invisible Air would only be boosting it's power.
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Old 2009-03-09, 04:46   Link #1134
rastilin
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Yet, Excalibur doesn't become powerful enough to defeat Berserker until after activated. If Excalibur really is A++ right of the bat, it makes no sense that it didn't cut Berserker from the start, as Invisible Air would only be boosting it's power.
Excalibur doesn't defeat Berzerker, Caliburn does. What precisely do you mean?
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Old 2009-03-09, 04:51   Link #1135
Keroko
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I know that. What I mean is that an unpowered Excalibur is unable to defeat Berserker. She needs to activate it (as in 'fire da lazor' activate) in order to defeat Berserker.

Yet Caliburn received no such activation, and was powerful enough to defeat Berserker multiple times in one blow, despite being listed as the weaker of the two swords.
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Old 2009-03-09, 05:06   Link #1136
rastilin
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Yet Caliburn received no such activation, and was powerful enough to defeat Berserker multiple times in one blow, despite being listed as the weaker of the two swords.
Yeah, to be honest that part never gets explained in so far as I know. Maybe it's a special ability it has, maybe it's just an author thing.

Quote:
I know that. What I mean is that an unpowered Excalibur is unable to defeat Berserker. She needs to activate it (as in 'fire da lazor' activate) in order to defeat Berserker.
It is quite able to defeat Berzerker, at least once. The problem is Saber can't get a shot in. When her stats go up it's stated now she could do it with just hand to hand.
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Old 2009-03-09, 15:06   Link #1137
ShinMasaki
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Ok, here's a question relating to the entire Nasuverse, not just F/SN.

I'm in the process of writing a Nasuverse fanfic focusing on the events after the UBW true ending. Just throwing this question out in case anyone know. I think this would be better in a Kara no Kyoukai board, but whatever...I'm active on here and not there.

Fate/Stay Night - Fuyuki City
Tsukihime - Misaki Town
Kara no Kyoukai - ?

Feel free to ignore the question as it is not really a F/SN question. Just cant think of where the stupid place is.

Edit: Correction...there is no Kara no Kyoukai board as far as I can find on this site.
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Old 2009-03-09, 17:17   Link #1138
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
Edit: Correction...there is no Kara no Kyoukai board as far as I can find on this site.
Under "fansubbed" you'll find the topic for the movies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rastilin View Post
There's no reason to think Archer uses UBW in the Fate route. There really is no reason to think so, except for the anime.
I meant the "firing swords from a range like Gil does" thing.
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Old 2009-03-09, 21:32   Link #1139
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hmm does anyone know what color saber's eyes are? I was thinking teal or green o_o
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Old 2009-03-09, 21:55   Link #1140
ShinMasaki
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Originally Posted by Caliburn9P View Post
hmm does anyone know what color saber's eyes are? I was thinking teal or green o_o
You are correct.
Spoiler for Saber pics of win:

Last edited by ShinMasaki; 2009-03-10 at 02:04.
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