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Old 2009-03-12, 22:03   Link #1161
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosauz View Post
your basically asking for it. I mean nasu hasn't state this in any shape or form, just because its technically the "last" route doesn't mean its the true end. I mean your basically putting your own feelings about sakura and projecting them as the end of the story where as me being a die hard rin fan would say ubw is the best route. I don't really want to argue this but I feel that not saying anything is just too unbareable. After playing through hf, I just don't feel that attached to the characters, as I did in UBW.
Go collect all the Tiger Stamps. Then watch the Final Dojo.

Basically, Taiga states that Fate and UBW raise the question of how Shirou should live, and HF presents an answer. Also that Fate and UBW are the "front side" of F/SN, and that HF is the hidden "back side".

Think that suggests True Ending to me. After all, again, you unlock HF last for a reason, right?

And HF really isn't about Sakura. Also I really don't like her that much. Saber is superior. <3
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Old 2009-03-13, 00:31   Link #1162
ShinMasaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Go collect all the Tiger Stamps. Then watch the Final Dojo.

Basically, Taiga states that Fate and UBW raise the question of how Shirou should live, and HF presents an answer. Also that Fate and UBW are the "front side" of F/SN, and that HF is the hidden "back side".

Think that suggests True Ending to me. After all, again, you unlock HF last for a reason, right?

And HF really isn't about Sakura. Also I really don't like her that much. Saber is superior. <3
Exactly, the final Tiger Dojo says that HF is a possible answer to how Shirou should live his life. It is not saying this is the way Shirou is going to live his life, but just a possible answer. The wording on that line and my knowledge of story writing (particularly fanfic writing) leads me to believe that HF is more like a fanfic written by Nasu based on his own work.

Additionally, if you play through Tsukihime, the 'back side' of the story, the 'Far Side of the Moon' stories you unlock later in the game are like this as well. They do not seem like the true ending to Tsukihime even though these are the final endings you get to the game. They are more like additional stories that could happen but probably wouldn't considering the characters.

Just because it is the final ending doesn't mean it is the real ending. You can say that you aren't saying it because it is the final ending, but because it feels 'complete', but after reading Nasu's works, his stories don't really have 'complete' endings. The endings that do have complete endings just don't feel like they are proper to the story.

I don't want to reveal Tsukihime endings nor the Kara no Kyoukai ending because just having them hidden by a spoiler button will not be enough to keep people from clicking it who want to find out on their own.

In short, Nasu's endings are typically not happy endings. Nor are they complete endings. The immediate problem that everyone is facing is finished, but the underlying problem still exists in these stories typically. A good story doesn't have to have a complete ending, a partial ending works as well if it is worked well enough. Destruction of the Great Holy Grail seems too much un-Nasu-like whereas just the destruction of the Holy Grail seems like something he would write. He leaves these stories open which I like because it allows for fanfic writers, like myself, to capitalize on the possibilities that still exist. He presents questions, gives a simple answer, but does not leave not a complete answer.
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Old 2009-03-13, 00:42   Link #1163
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
Exactly, the final Tiger Dojo says that HF is a possible answer to how Shirou should live his life. It is not saying this is the way Shirou is going to live his life, but just a possible answer. The wording on that line and my knowledge of story writing (particularly fanfic writing) leads me to believe that HF is more like a fanfic written by Nasu based on his own work.
It is, however, the only answer the game presents.

I will say now that I am incredibly biased against your opinion, because I really really hate fanfics. To me, they feel like they're denying the real story to replace with what 'YOU', the reader, thinks is better, and it's my personal, deep-seated belief that stories belong to the people who write them.

And how is a writer supposed to write a FANFIC about his own work? Semantically, that doesn't make sense...
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Old 2009-03-13, 01:23   Link #1164
Nosauz
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I have seen the final dojo, but from the follow up game, I just don't see the connection between HF and FH/A. Archer in his reincarnation for the bout with avenger is one that is renewed in a sense, his actions seem more purposeful, his summoning in itself are different, but from what is implied and archer's purpose in the whole time line, the only two endings that really allow for shirou to become archer are fate and UBW. This is the key difference. It really isn't just about shirou sacrificing his ideals to save sakura in HF, in UBW he becomes an Archer who accepts his role as the counter guardian. The whole purpose of shirou is to find HIS ideal, not the one left by his father, that is why HF feels like he doesn't feel like he chooses his destiny. Even though shirou's fate in UBW and Fate are both unknown, the fact that he is in control of it, and even though his future as archer will be painful, he moves on forward, marching toward that end. Until otherwise stated, I'll keep treating all three as canon, and seeing as we probably won't see an sequel anytime soon, it'll just be out there. I just find that what fan's want and what the creator has in mind is usually quite different.
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Old 2009-03-13, 04:28   Link #1165
ShinMasaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
It is, however, the only answer the game presents.

I will say now that I am incredibly biased against your opinion, because I really really hate fanfics. To me, they feel like they're denying the real story to replace with what 'YOU', the reader, thinks is better, and it's my personal, deep-seated belief that stories belong to the people who write them.

And how is a writer supposed to write a FANFIC about his own work? Semantically, that doesn't make sense...
How does it not make sense? A fanfic is a story not intending for it to be canon but as a possible continuation to what the original story may be. An original author can easily write a fanfic of his own work. How? If he writes it without the intent for it to be canon or be a true continuation of the original work.

Nasu's works released by Type-Moon are ALL (with the exception of ONE route in the game) fanfics written by Nasu. There is only one route in the game intended by Nasu to be the true story. Every other story written follows the rules of a fanfic: using characters from the canon universe, and being placed in an alternate universe setting.

Nasu goes and creates the characters for the story, the setting, the plot, and the conclusion. Say he wants the True Heavens Feel ending to be the 'true' story of Fate. Then what are all the rest? Stories that are not 'real' compared to the 'true' story but involve all the canonical characters in an alternate universe that go through different ordeals and/or events than the original story. If you refuse to accept this, than you cannot claim any of the endings in F/SN to be a true ending to the story at all.

My stance on this is that I believe the True UBW story to be the real story and the rest to be fanfics written by Nasu. Heavens Feel, to me, feels the most conjured story compared to all the rest knowing how each character lives their lives and their personalities you learn through the rest of the story. As it is the least likely to be the real story, which by my belief is the True UBW, it easily makes HF to be a fanfic.

Allow me to bring some quotes out from the final Tiger Dojo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Tiger Dojo
As the title "Unlimited Blade Works" indicates, Rin's route is about Shirou. "Fate" and "Unlimited Blade Works" are two sides of one story. Shirou is the protagonist of this game, so the game has to be about Shirou."
...
...
"I said it before, but Fate is Shirou's story. The question of how Shirou should exist is presented in Saber and Rin's routes. One of the answers is Sakura's route, "Heavens Feel".
So we know the story has to be about Shirou, him being the protagonist. The story of F/SN is the combination of Fate and UBW with them being two sides of the same story, so you get both parts of the one story. ONE of the answers as to how Shirou should exist is Heavens Feel. The game says that there are multiple answers to how he should exist, just that the example they give is Heavens Feel.

It says that it is one of the answers among a (supposedly) infinite number of answers. Why? Because the story is Shirou's story, it poses the question in UBW but leaves it open for the reader to decide. That is why HF is a fanfic, written by the author. It is a possible ending, among any number of endings; it is up to the reader to decide what ending they want. Since no 'true' answer exists, that is why I see the True UBW ending to be the real ending, ending the game with the question raised.

As to the way you worded your message, I really dislike fanfics that do the same: denying the ending by changing things on that ending. The fanfics I like (and the ones I write) are stories that continue after the ending is complete. I enjoy a story in its entirety and I write what I think could happen after the ending but not as a degradation to the ending but as another story using the original story, ending included, as a base to write from. I dislike stories that change the original to suit their own work. That seems like you are telling the original author that they wrote a bad story and you could write one better. The ones I like accept the story and continue where the story ends or do like what F/HA does and puts the setting further down the road from the ending of the story to create a new story using the old events.
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Old 2009-03-13, 04:45   Link #1166
ShinMasaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MFSxA View Post
So I found the realta nua hidden end, can someone please translate? There's a rough translation in the link, but I don't really know if its right.
Spoiler for Realta Nua Hidden Ending:
Working on it. I don't have a copy of Realta Nua and the video on YouTube is difficult to read a lot of the kanji for. I'll try to piece together a translation for it, but don't wait up on it...I've got a bunch of other things on my translation plate...Type-Moon Ace v.1 & 2 for one...F/HA...and a handful of doujins that I picked up in LA. Hopefully will get them all done in time for Mahou Tsukai...whenever that will be.
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Old 2009-03-13, 05:55   Link #1167
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
FINALLY finished Heaven's Feel. And I loved it.

So to all you people out there that hate it,
*shrug* Hey, people have different tastes after all. If you loved Heavens Feel, then you loved Heavens Feel. Just because some of us didn't doesn't mean you can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I just don't get the UBW love and the HF hate I keep seeing all over the internet.

UBW was a great route, but I kept hearing so many epic things about it that I expected it to be better than it was... I guess?

And yeah, Lancer is awesome. But I think Kotomine is more awesome, so...

I think I liked HF more than any other route perhaps because it was filled with such ridiculously out-of-left-field plot twists and creepy, darker themes and imagery. And the entire final day and ending.
Kotomine was one of the few saving graces of Heavens Feel... I can't help but keep thinking that less pity-poor-Sakura and more Kotomine would have made the route much more enjoyable for me.

I guess that's why I just can't enjoy Heavens Feel as much as I did the other routes. I don't like seeing girls being stuffed in roles where they can't do anything but be protected. I like my heroines strong and kicking ass just as much as the guys of the story, yet Heavens Feel gave me a 'princess I must protect' as a heroine. I mean, sure Shirou blabs about protecting girls all the time, but at least in the other two routes the girls tell him to stuff it and go on fighting.

Which is also why the final day was the most enjoyable. bye bye pity-poor-Sakura, hello evil-queen-Sakura.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
Shirou dies in any and all of the endings for HF, be it a random bad choice or the true endings to the story. He dies at the end and either doesn't come back (lol) or has to be put into a doll, an imperfect one at that that gives him problems. It kills the possibility of Archer even existing because Shirou's magic circuit is now gone do to maintaining and operating the doll.
Much as I agree that Heavens Feel is not necessarily the 'real' ending of Fate/Stay Night, I don't think Heavens Feel kills of Archer. If you'll note UBW's True End, it states that with Rin looking over Shirou, he should not turn into the Hero Emiya.

Technically speaking, this is the same thing as the ending of Heavens Feel: No Archer. However, as the ending states:

"Even if it ends up that way, the already existing Knight will always be a guardian.

The boy and the knight are two different existences.

They only have the same starting point, and he is an ideal that the boy dreamed off."


In other words, since Archer became a heroic spirit, he exists outside the flow of time and its paradoxes. Even if Shirou at the end of Heavens Feel can no longer become a hero, Archer already exists.
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Old 2009-03-13, 06:51   Link #1168
MFSxA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
Working on it. I don't have a copy of Realta Nua and the video on YouTube is difficult to read a lot of the kanji for. I'll try to piece together a translation for it, but don't wait up on it...I've got a bunch of other things on my translation plate...Type-Moon Ace v.1 & 2 for one...F/HA...and a handful of doujins that I picked up in LA. Hopefully will get them all done in time for Mahou Tsukai...whenever that will be.
That would be great, it would really be nice to know what they are saying in those scenes.
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So I said in my heart, "As it happens to the fool, It also happens to me, And why was I then more wise?" Then I said in my heart, "This also is vanity." For there is no more remembrance of the wise than of the fool forever, Since all that now is will be forgotten in the days to come. And how does a wise man die? As the fool!

Ecclesiastes 2:15-16, NKJV
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Old 2009-03-13, 07:52   Link #1169
eiyuu99
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Please don't assume which path is canon for FSN,
unless you have undeniable facts, like evidence from Kinoko.

Otherwise, I have to stuff you into this.
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Old 2009-03-13, 18:31   Link #1170
soka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MFSxA View Post
So I found the realta nua hidden end, can someone please translate? There's a rough translation in the link, but I don't really know if its right.
Spoiler for Realta Nua Hidden Ending:
There is a translation by WingZero from mirror moon forums.
The video of the ending available in youtube is divided in 2 parts, but there seems to be some scenes missing at the beginning of the first one.

Spoiler for Realta Nua Hidden Ending missing part:

First video
Spoiler for Realta Nua Hidden Ending first video translation.:

Second video
Spoiler for Realta Nua Hidden Ending second video translation:
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Old 2009-03-13, 23:21   Link #1171
MFSxA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soka View Post
There is a translation by WingZero from mirror moon forums.
The video of the ending available in youtube is divided in 2 parts, but there seems to be some scenes missing at the beginning of the first one.

Spoiler for Realta Nua Hidden Ending missing part:

First video
Spoiler for Realta Nua Hidden Ending first video translation.:

Second video
Spoiler for Realta Nua Hidden Ending second video translation:
Wow, thanks a lot.

So much interesting introspection, I'm impressed with the author.

Thanks again man, this was great info.
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So I said in my heart, "As it happens to the fool, It also happens to me, And why was I then more wise?" Then I said in my heart, "This also is vanity." For there is no more remembrance of the wise than of the fool forever, Since all that now is will be forgotten in the days to come. And how does a wise man die? As the fool!

Ecclesiastes 2:15-16, NKJV
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Old 2009-03-15, 01:18   Link #1172
Hyperion
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Well, I have beaten all three routes in F/SN (Haven't done the 'Good/Normal' ends yet) and I must say, after UBW and HF Lancer and Rider are now my favorite servants. This game was amazing, it was like reading an actual book (well, it is a book in a way). UBW is my fav ending so far. I have the feeling I'll love F/HA if it ever get's translated.
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Old 2009-03-15, 13:22   Link #1173
Jaden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki
Shirou dies in any and all of the endings for HF, be it a random bad choice or the true endings to the story. He dies at the end and either doesn't come back (lol) or has to be put into a doll, an imperfect one at that that gives him problems. It kills the possibility of Archer even existing because Shirou's magic circuit is now gone do to maintaining and operating the doll.
Surely not? The "doll" is made by Aozaki Touko after all. Her ability to perfectly replicate bodies is well demonstrated in Kara no Koyukai, so Shirou's magic circuits should be as they were.

Rin also mentions in HF true ending that with training, Shirou should be able to use his reality marble. Though it's unclear how serious she was, since it was in an internal monologue that was part of a gag..
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Old 2009-03-15, 14:51   Link #1174
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
Rin also mentions in HF true ending that with training, Shirou should be able to use his reality marble. Though it's unclear how serious she was, since it was in an internal monologue that was part of a gag..
His Reality Marble would be quite a bit different than Archer's, though, probably more similar to the one he uses at the end of UBW...


Actually, was this why he couldn't use it in HF? Because he was trying to use Archer's and it wouldn't work because they're too different?
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Old 2009-03-15, 21:45   Link #1175
ShinMasaki
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Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
Surely not? The "doll" is made by Aozaki Touko after all. Her ability to perfectly replicate bodies is well demonstrated in Kara no Koyukai, so Shirou's magic circuits should be as they were.

Rin also mentions in HF true ending that with training, Shirou should be able to use his reality marble. Though it's unclear how serious she was, since it was in an internal monologue that was part of a gag..
Touko's ability to perfectly replicate bodies as dolls is conditional. The ONLY body she was able to perfectly replicate was her own. All other bodies have flaws of some sort. Replicating limbs is simple, as she demonstrates with Shiki's arm, but if you listen to Mujou Rasen (Paradox Spiral, Movie 5) Touko says that only her body is the only one she could replicate perfectly. She has it set so that when her body dies, the next doll comes alive with all of her memories and experiences. It's gone to the point where she doesn't remember anymore which body was originally hers.

As far as Shirou's magic circuit goes, I reread the ending to HF. Shirou's magic is still in his body, albeit weak and his ability to use magic less than it was before. It does say he can use magic somewhat and he could possibly by able to use his Reality Marble.

His magic circuit got overloaded initially and completely destroyed, but due to the effects of the Third Sorcery, his soul regenerated his body in the puppet to its original point. It does however say that he does have problems from time to time because of the doll body as well, though.
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Old 2009-03-24, 10:11   Link #1176
sento
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Really people, the game ITSELF says that HF True is the True Ending in Tiger Dojo 39.



And ataraxia means nothing here, it's stated that ataraxia it's not a real sequel, it's a fandisc. And even so, multiple routes never stopped Kinoko into writing outcomes to some of they, as Yoimachi Kanwa to Akiha True, or Melty Blood to Satsuki Normal (a unreleased route, nevertheless). Nasuverse is a multi-canon universe.

And the "Heavens Feel doesn't even end in a true happy ending" it's stupid too, as in the final Onsen Dojo they clearly states that they "will get happy as they can get".

Last edited by sento; 2009-03-24 at 10:35.
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Old 2009-03-24, 23:50   Link #1177
ShinMasaki
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why is it the true ending to f/sn? simply because you can't get to it without clearing the other routes.

what does the tiger dojo say about the game? the Fate route and UBW route ask the question of how Shirou should live his life. One of the answers to this question is heavens feel. it specifically says "one of the answers" meaning that there is any number of answers. the only reason why heavens feel is the true ending is because you've hit all the other endings. there is nothing more, as far as nasu wrote, about f/sn so it is the final final ending.

i don't consider ataraxia at all when talking about f/sn. there are way too many inconsistencies with the main storyline that there is no way to see it instead of as a side-what if story, thus it being on a fandisc.
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Old 2009-03-25, 00:12   Link #1178
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
why is it the true ending to f/sn? simply because you can't get to it without clearing the other routes.
Or, better yet, it's the True Ending because it's the True Ending.

It's not just the "last ending you get", it's the True Ending to the entire damned game. That's what they're saying.

(I will also note that, having seen KnK and having played a bit of Tsukihime, I think that HF is quite a bit more like Nasu's typical style than the other two routes, but whatever.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
what does the tiger dojo say about the game? the Fate route and UBW route ask the question of how Shirou should live his life. One of the answers to this question is heavens feel. it specifically says "one of the answers" meaning that there is any number of answers. the only reason why heavens feel is the true ending is because you've hit all the other endings. there is nothing more, as far as nasu wrote, about f/sn so it is the final final ending.
It's still the only answer the game presents us with. I'd say, because of this, that it's the ending we're meant to see.

And you're kinda ignoring the implications of what they're saying.

Fate and UBW are the "Question". HF is an "Answer". Hence, True Ending.

It's not the only ending possible, (obviously, as we have Fate and UBW as well) but it's the True Ending of the game.

How I see it, anyway.
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Old 2009-03-26, 04:25   Link #1179
ShinMasaki
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Or, better yet, it's the True Ending because it's the True Ending.

It's not just the "last ending you get", it's the True Ending to the entire damned game. That's what they're saying.

(I will also note that, having seen KnK and having played a bit of Tsukihime, I think that HF is quite a bit more like Nasu's typical style than the other two routes, but whatever.)



It's still the only answer the game presents us with. I'd say, because of this, that it's the ending we're meant to see.

And you're kinda ignoring the implications of what they're saying.

Fate and UBW are the "Question". HF is an "Answer". Hence, True Ending.

It's not the only ending possible, (obviously, as we have Fate and UBW as well) but it's the True Ending of the game.

How I see it, anyway.
That is exactly what I said. It is not the only ending possible, just the only one present in the game. Just because it is the only one present in the game does not mean that it is the intended final conclusion, but rather A conclusion among numerous other POSSIBLE conclusions.

With it being the only answer presented in the game, that is like me asking for a number larger than 5 and Nasu chose 8. That doesn't mean that 7 or 9 is wrong either, it is just that he chose 8 because he felt like choosing that one. Since I see it like that, I cannot accept that HF is the true ending just because it is the only one presented. It is simply the story that Nasu decided he wanted to present to us.

TO ME, F/SN ended with the UBW ending, and the follow up, Heavens Feel, is just a possible ending that Nasu wrote not intending for it to be a true conclusion but a sample of an infinite number of conclusions. The game even says that HF is just an answer, but not the answer. Note that although I am saying UBW is seemingly the truer of the endings, this still is just an opinion founded by several things including Nasu's other works, the wording used in the game, the personality of Shirou, etc etc.

And what do you mean after KnK? Did you read it? If anything, the ending to KnK has a lot more in common with the UBW ending. If you only watched Kara no Kyoukai, they are only through the first 5 movies. Although all the big action occurs in book 5 (movie 5) the actual ending is on the seventh installment. If you are reading it via Baka-Tsuki, they only have the first 4 translated with the 5th about 50% complete.

Tsukihime's endings typically leave Shiki with living with the weight of his actions. Most of the time he is satisfied with the ending, satisfied, but not truly happy. The only "happy" ending I can think of is Kohaku's ending which is one of the final endings to the game (although what happens in the middle is nowhere near "happy"). The Good Endings to all the routes that have them seem way too optimistic and cheerful for it to be what Nasu intends, so I don't even consider them when discussing the endings. Despite that, Ciel's Good Ending is by far my favorite...I don't see it as a True Ending though.

Although I did say earlier that HF doesn't end happily, it does give perhaps the brightest image, the happiest conclusion to the game. HF seems too much like a happy ending to be something Nasu would write or intend. (Just about) everyone is alive and well, the family is together at the end, things are bright and cheery...definitely not what I see when I see Nasu's writings. Fate/Zero, Tsukihime, Kara no Kyoukai, Angel Notes...all of them end with a dreary but satisfying ending. None of them are near as pleasing as the HF ending.

Still waiting patiently for Mahou Tsukai and I'm trying to find a place where I can find his other works Kori no Hana and Decoration Disorder Disconnection.
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Old 2009-03-26, 07:40   Link #1180
sento
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Happy or "seemingly" Happy endings are typical in Kinoko Nasu's complete works (Notes isn't really a full work, even Kinoko said it's more a mini-story about something bigger).

- In Tsukihime, 3 True Endings are happy (as Yoimachi Kanwa to Akiha True is the continuation). And Ciel True and Kohaku's one are happy enough. And it's said that he wrote first Good Endings, but then Takeuchi said him that the True Endings will be more fitting here (as Tsukihime it's Kinoko's darkest work, Fate is far brighter).
- Kara no Kyoukai = Absolute happy ending. And I don't see the "link" that you saw between UBW and Rakkyo aside from counter force (a thing that if you really are perceptive, is present in all Kinoko works in some way), because UBW is considered the route less Nasuverse related.
- Fate/stay night. Saber ending isn't really supposed to be absolutely sad, as even they accept it without any tears and looking forward for their own paths. Rin's True End is a happy one. And Sakura's True End too.

Fate/Zero is written by Urobuchi, a guy who didn't know how to write properly happy endings. Heck, he even wrote Fate/Zero with that in mind, calling Kinoko Nasu "the warrior of love". He said that he was looking for you, after the reading of Fate/Zero, run to your computer to find the happy ending that the characters deserve.

And the wall of text saying about the true ending. I think that the picture I posted clear it all. Really, in that dojo they didn't say "the grand finale, the Heaven's Feel True Ending", they say "the grand finale, Fate/stay night True Ending". And that answer, even if it's one answer, its the same answer that Kiritsugu found in Fate/Zero, even if he realized it late. So it's the only answer we had. You can say that it's the whole point about Fate saga. Of course, it's not the only ending possible, but they clearly said that it's the true ending to the whole story.

Last edited by sento; 2009-03-26 at 08:16.
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