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Old 2009-03-26, 12:33   Link #1181
ShinMasaki
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If anything, HF is the ending to the story supplied, but I refuse to believe it as the final ending. It does not fit with Nasu's writings.

The thing I see across Nasu's works a lot is the protagonist having to deal with, and accept, himself/herself for who/what they really are and it leaves them with an outlook on life where they confront their past/future/alternate self, and decide or plan on how to live their life based on that.

Spoiler for Tsuki, Fate, KnK spoilers:


I will admit that Notes was listed as merely as a mini-story. It appeared as a doujin work within a compilation of other works so it cannot be seen as a full work. However, it does provide the basis for the Nasuverse albeit being set in a future setting more than 3000 yrs in the future from F/SN, Tsuki, KnK.

In HF, Shirou realizes it at the end who Archer is but as to why Archer is there or what relation Archer has to himself, there is no recognition.

Now this is contradictory to what I've been saying, but I do see the UBW ending as a happy ending. Everything is resolved, the Grail War was not intended to be completely resolved in UBW but just ended for the time being. Shirou knows his possible future and has Rin to keep him on a path away from that ending. Despite this being as happy as it is, I see this as being an ending to Fate.

I don't see Fate as being a closed story, but rather an open-ended question. This is Shirou's life, this is his fate...how is he going to live his life from here on? Simply put, the paths of Fate and UBW put forth this question. There is no doubt, the game even states such. It also says that a possible ending is HF, that said it also says that it is the final ending to the Fate story.

If you guys believe HF to be the only answer to the question, or the correct answer, that is on you to believe the wording however you want to. I'm just saying I don't believe it to be and there is no way you can convince me otherwise. I will admit it is a possible ending, a rather forced and really stretched ending, but an ending. I will not admit it as being the only ending nor the correct ending. Go ahead and provide whatever clues you may throw out, but as the story is written as it is, there are far too many inconsistencies and quirks to HF that is so unlike Nasu's other works that I will not believe it to be an ending he truly intended.
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Old 2009-03-26, 13:05   Link #1182
sento
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I still not get you. HF is clearly the route more Nasu-like in the game, when he puts all his typical Kinoko-Philosophy, linking thematically with Fate/hollow ataraxia with the "worth/meaning" of a life, impossible dreams, eternal life (link with Tsukihime), evolution of the species (link with Notes), importance of your everyday feelings (linking with Kara no Kyoukai - Spiral Paradox)... and a long etc... filled with a lot of references as well.

You can say that it's not of your taste, or that as the game says, there are more answers, but you can't say that it's "so unlike Nasu's" because that's not really true.

Well, it's your opinion, ok then. I only stated what the game says.
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Old 2009-03-26, 17:30   Link #1183
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
TO ME, F/SN ended with the UBW ending
And there's your entire problem. You're trying to justify this belief, and I really don't think it's working.
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Old 2009-03-27, 00:05   Link #1184
ShinMasaki
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Either way, whether I'm trying to justify the belief or not, you cannot convince me otherwise, as it is my belief. I am not saying that you guys are wrong in your belief that HF is the ending to F/SN, I'm just giving all these points as to why you wont be able to convince me.

We've already covered that the game offers a question and leaves an answer. Whether you see the answer as being final or not is up to you to decide, that is most likely why it was worded as such.

This topic we are on is simply an argument of opinions, opinions that parties on both sides feel strongly about. We aren't going to come to a resolution to this anytime soon, or ever, unless Nasu himself states otherwise one way or another.

You can say that the game states HF as the True ending to Fate, but it also states that it is merely one answer to the question about how Shirou is to live his life following the info provided in the previous routes.

Nasulosophy is present in all of his writings regardless of ending. I will agree that HF connects to a lot of his other works, but it is not limited to just HF. UBW you have conflict with your self (Tsuki), ideals vs reality (KnK-A Study in Murder Part 2), belief vs conviction (Notes), and others as well. Of course, you can make the same argument about the Fate storyline with different points of coinciding Nasulosophy. If anything though, inner struggle is perhaps the most universal point of Nasulosophy that I see in his writings. Shiki/Shiki (Tsuki/KnK), Emiya/Archer (F/SN), The Angel/Type-Venus (Notes), Shiki[dream]/Shiki[reality] (Kagetsu Tohya).
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Old 2009-03-27, 05:07   Link #1185
Keroko
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.... Isn't the entire point of a multi-route game that you imagine the end you like the most to be the real end?
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Old 2009-03-27, 06:51   Link #1186
mAc Chaos
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Is HF the one that ends with Kotomine and Shirou beating the stuffings out of each other fist-to-fist? That was pretty cool.
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Old 2009-03-27, 13:14   Link #1187
ShinMasaki
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That is the ending you are thinking of. Kotomine is an awesome character.
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Old 2009-03-27, 14:00   Link #1188
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
You can say that the game states HF as the True ending to Fate
But... we're not just saying it, it DOES say that... oh, whatever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
.... Isn't the entire point of a multi-route game that you imagine the end you like the most to be the real end?
F/SN is like a linear VN disguised as a route-based VN.

Since you have to play the routes in order, you get this sense of linearity and continuity even though there isn't any.


Probably the best explanation of the plot I've ever heard is the following:

F/SN as a whole represents Shirou's journey into adulthood. In Fate, he is a child, clinging to his ideal no matter what. In UBW, he is like a teenager, trying to have both his ideal and reality. And finally, in HF, he becomes an adult, forsaking his ideal for what really matters in reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
That is the ending you are thinking of. Kotomine is an awesome character.
Finally, something we agree on.

ufotable needs to animate Fate/Zero. I really want to see more of him.
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Old 2009-03-27, 14:05   Link #1189
eiyuu99
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A person can fervently believe in a lie, regardless how illogical it may be.
Please do not assume which route is canon, unless you can back it up with concrete evidence.

Existence of The Second Magic already suggests Possibilities.
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Old 2009-03-27, 14:35   Link #1190
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by eiyuu99 View Post
Please do not assume which route is canon, unless you can back it up with concrete evidence.
All are "canon", but the HF ending is the "True Ending", according to the Tiger Dojos.
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Old 2009-03-27, 16:40   Link #1191
mAc Chaos
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Yeah, Kotomine is awesome... my friend said he's a BORING character. I don't know how you can think that.
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Old 2009-03-27, 17:38   Link #1192
ShinMasaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
But... we're not just saying it, it DOES say that... oh, whatever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
but it also states that it is merely one answer to the question about how Shirou is to live his life following the info provided in the previous routes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
ufotable needs to animate Fate/Zero. I really want to see more of him.
I want to see Saber on her motorcycle.
Spoiler for saber's motorcycle:


That is the best image of that I can find, I'll upload a better image later from my Type-Moon Ace issue.
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Old 2009-03-27, 18:34   Link #1193
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
I want to see Saber on her motorcycle.
I had that image as my wallpaper for a while.

So badass.

Supposedly Berserker fights Gilgamesh while in an F-16 or something too.
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Old 2009-03-28, 22:35   Link #1194
Deadwings
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Hi! I have a doubt gentle players of the F/SN game (I can't believe I'm only coming to this forum just to ask questions... Damn type-moon world... so complicated...) And it's a bit related to the different endings. My questions is: what happens to Sakura during the Fate and UBW routes? I mean, HF explains everything about her but after playing the last route I realized that the first two seem to completely ignore her. Ok, rider is killed, but I still don't get why should Zouken and true assasin remain quite. Is there anything I missed that explained why they didn't do anything?
And considering Sakura's nature, I find it hard to believe that she stayed quite during the war...
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Old 2009-03-28, 23:43   Link #1195
Archer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadwings View Post
Hi! I have a doubt gentle players of the F/SN game (I can't believe I'm only coming to this forum just to ask questions... Damn type-moon world... so complicated...) And it's a bit related to the different endings. My questions is: what happens to Sakura during the Fate and UBW routes? I mean, HF explains everything about her but after playing the last route I realized that the first two seem to completely ignore her. Ok, rider is killed, but I still don't get why should Zouken and true assasin remain quite. Is there anything I missed that explained why they didn't do anything?
And considering Sakura's nature, I find it hard to believe that she stayed quite during the war...
Zouken only carries out his plan when he discovers he could use Shirou (HF). All of the other routes he waits for the next war. Unfortunately for him, the Greater Holy Grail is dismantled shortly afterward the ends of the first two routes.

Not that it matters in UBW, since the first thing Shinji does after acquiring Gilgamesh to kill Zouken.
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Old 2009-03-29, 03:38   Link #1196
ShinMasaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadwings View Post
Hi! I have a doubt gentle players of the F/SN game (I can't believe I'm only coming to this forum just to ask questions... Damn type-moon world... so complicated...) And it's a bit related to the different endings. My questions is: what happens to Sakura during the Fate and UBW routes? I mean, HF explains everything about her but after playing the last route I realized that the first two seem to completely ignore her. Ok, rider is killed, but I still don't get why should Zouken and true assasin remain quite. Is there anything I missed that explained why they didn't do anything?
And considering Sakura's nature, I find it hard to believe that she stayed quite during the war...
In addition, True Assassin isn't present at all in the Fate or UBW routes. If you remember from HF, what was used to summon True Assassin was the role of the original Assassin. Since the original Assassin is still present throughout nearly the entirety (till he gets killed) in Fate and UBW, it's apparent that the catalyst is never initiated and True Assassin never joins.

Zouken uses True Assassin as his own Servant during the war, but since he chooses to stay out of it during the Fate and UBW routes, there is no reason for him to need a Servant.

Oh, and in addition...
Spoiler for Saber+ motorcycle = win:

...got that better image that I was saying I'd do.

Last edited by ShinMasaki; 2009-03-29 at 03:52.
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Old 2009-03-29, 06:16   Link #1197
sento
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadwings View Post
Hi! I have a doubt gentle players of the F/SN game (I can't believe I'm only coming to this forum just to ask questions... Damn type-moon world... so complicated...) And it's a bit related to the different endings. My questions is: what happens to Sakura during the Fate and UBW routes? I mean, HF explains everything about her but after playing the last route I realized that the first two seem to completely ignore her. Ok, rider is killed, but I still don't get why should Zouken and true assasin remain quite. Is there anything I missed that explained why they didn't do anything?
And considering Sakura's nature, I find it hard to believe that she stayed quite during the war...
The whole thing with Zouken is that he only wants to enter the war if he can use "his trump card". Sakura is described as a impenetrable will fortress by him, as she didn't want to enter in the war and fight Shirou and Rin. But then, in HF he found a crack in that fortress, her feelings.
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Old 2009-03-29, 13:44   Link #1198
Deadwings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archer View Post
Not that it matters in UBW, since the first thing Shinji does after acquiring Gilgamesh to kill Zouken.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
In addition, True Assassin isn't present at all in the Fate or UBW routes. If you remember from HF, what was used to summon True Assassin was the role of the original Assassin. Since the original Assassin is still present throughout nearly the entirety (till he gets killed) in Fate and UBW, it's apparent that the catalyst is never initiated and True Assassin never joins.

Zouken uses True Assassin as his own Servant during the war, but since he chooses to stay out of it during the Fate and UBW routes, there is no reason for him to need a Servant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sento View Post
The whole thing with Zouken is that he only wants to enter the war if he can use "his trump card". Sakura is described as a impenetrable will fortress by him, as she didn't want to enter in the war and fight Shirou and Rin. But then, in HF he found a crack in that fortress, her feelings.
Thanks for the answers! Now I can rest in peace (?).
BTW, my favourite route is UBW, I can't get enough of servants battles! I'm now rewatching tha anime and it feels so poor compared to the sensation of the VN But I must say that I liked HF too. Contrary to Fate and UBW, HF was for more like a heavy drama and not the epic action/love story that were fate and UBW imho. So, evaluating it from a drama point of wiev, I think it was pretty decent, mostly because there's no action in this route, every time a servant readied himself to battle the shadow appeared and swallowed everything. Man I really hate that shadow, so many potential fights ruined by it
The last thing. Rin FTW!
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Old 2009-03-29, 18:20   Link #1199
sento
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Originally Posted by Deadwings View Post
I think it was pretty decent, mostly because there's no action in this route, every time a servant readied himself to battle the shadow appeared and swallowed everything. Man I really hate that shadow, so many potential fights ruined by it
The last thing. Rin FTW!
Use the Realta Nua CGs patch and you will solve that in some way.
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Old 2009-03-29, 21:39   Link #1200
ShinMasaki
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Rin FTW!
Good answer. The characters in the Nasuverse with the Rin-type character are by far my favorites...Azaka Kokutou, Rin Tohsaka, Akiha Tohno. But then again, I can't possibly forsake Ciel.
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