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Old 2009-03-29, 22:03   Link #1201
aldw
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
All are "canon", but the HF ending is the "True Ending", according to the Tiger Dojos.
With either F/SN or Tsukihime there's no purely singular 'True Ending', otherwise by that logic Kohaku's route would be the 'true ending' there (and Kohaku is one of Nasu's personal favorites). Nasu himself only spoke about probabilities when asked about all this, and certainly not with the absolute declaratives like George Lucas concerning Star Wars. The hardcore experts on Beast's Lair or Mirror Moon can confirm those points.

F/HA doesn't contradict F/SN if one looks at certain elements of the plot, particularly the space/time accident Rin caused during an experiment at Illya's castle, so a convergence of sorts can be considered from that.

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Good answer. The characters in the Nasuverse with the Rin-type character are by far my favorites...Azaka Kokutou, Rin Tohsaka, Akiha Tohno. But then again, I can't possibly forsake Ciel.
Yep, yep, Azaka and especially Rin are great in my book, Akiha's just a bit too tsun-tsun for my comfort.
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Old 2009-03-29, 23:01   Link #1202
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Yep, yep, Azaka and especially Rin are great in my book, Akiha's just a bit too tsun-tsun for my comfort.
Agreed, for Tsuki, Ciel takes Akiha's place.
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Old 2009-03-30, 00:10   Link #1203
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aldw View Post
With either F/SN or Tsukihime there's no purely singular 'True Ending', otherwise by that logic Kohaku's route would be the 'true ending' there (and Kohaku is one of Nasu's personal favorites). Nasu himself only spoke about probabilities when asked about all this, and certainly not with the absolute declaratives like George Lucas concerning Star Wars. The hardcore experts on Beast's Lair or Mirror Moon can confirm those points.
It says right in black and white, in the game. "True Ending of Fate/Stay Night".

I keep saying this, and you people keep discounting it, and I don't know how you can.
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Old 2009-03-30, 01:35   Link #1204
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Yes it does say "True Ending of Fate/Stay Night". But you can deny the possiblity that the other two routes can actually happen. And this is a game of choices, be real or fake, it is the player the one who makes the ending.
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Old 2009-03-30, 04:52   Link #1205
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I wonder, then, what the other 'true endings' are? The game clearly marks both the Fate route, as well as one of the endings in Unlimited Blade Works as 'True Endings' if Heavens Feel is the true ending, what are the other two?
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Old 2009-03-30, 16:47   Link #1206
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
It says right in black and white, in the game. "True Ending of Fate/Stay Night".

I keep saying this, and you people keep discounting it, and I don't know how you can.
The 'Final Dojo' already states clearly that HF is only one possible outcome for F/SN, and your the one being blind to that point, not to mention (again) the author himself never declared it the only true outcome. If HF were the sole 'true ending' then the aforementioned point wouldn't have even been said at all. I don't have that screenshot of the 'Final Dojo' on me, but if you want to be obstreperous about this then that's your problem, not mine.

One thing I like about Nasu is how he is responsive to fan feedback, that's why Sacchin can finally get her route and why Shirou and Saber can meet in Avalon finally. Considering how the anime and manga both follow Fate and UBW, that just adds more credibility to those routes.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I wonder, then, what the other 'true endings' are? The game clearly marks both the Fate route, as well as one of the endings in Unlimited Blade Works as 'True Endings' if Heavens Feel is the true ending, what are the other two?
Nasu did say they were all valid, the 'True Ending' that Kaisos is mentioning only refers to the ending of the game itself, not the totality of the story.
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Old 2009-03-30, 19:57   Link #1207
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Oooh, so that tiger dojo was refering to Heavens Feel being the end of the game, rather then which story is the real one?

Okay, now things make a lot more sense.
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Old 2009-03-30, 21:03   Link #1208
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I wonder, then, what the other 'true endings' are? The game clearly marks both the Fate route, as well as one of the endings in Unlimited Blade Works as 'True Endings' if Heavens Feel is the true ending, what are the other two?
True Endings of those respective routes.

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Originally Posted by Deadwings View Post
Yes it does say "True Ending of Fate/Stay Night". But you can deny the possiblity that the other two routes can actually happen. And this is a game of choices, be real or fake, it is the player the one who makes the ending.
Not in a game with a linear design like F/SN.

With Tsukihime, sure, where all routes are open from the beginning, but with F/SN you have to play the routes IN ORDER.

While I'm sure many people would have liked the game to stop at UBW, it doesn't, and this is for a REASON.

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Originally Posted by aldw View Post
The 'Final Dojo' already states clearly that HF is only one possible outcome for F/SN, and your the one being blind to that point, not to mention (again) the author himself never declared it the only true outcome. If HF were the sole 'true ending' then the aforementioned point wouldn't have even been said at all. I don't have that screenshot of the 'Final Dojo' on me, but if you want to be obstreperous about this then that's your problem, not mine.
I love it when people treat me as though they're superior to me. Very flattering.

Yeah, the final dojo states that HF is one possible outcome, but what it actually says is that HF is "one answer" to how Shirou should live.

It also says that Fate and UBW present "the question" of how he should live.

Logically, this means that they are exempt from being "the answer".

It works too, as HF wouldn't work at all unless the player was already familiar with the concepts presented in the previous two routes.

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One thing I like about Nasu is how he is responsive to fan feedback, that's why Sacchin can finally get her route and why Shirou and Saber can meet in Avalon finally. Considering how the anime and manga both follow Fate and UBW, that just adds more credibility to those routes.
Not really. Most people rag on the anime BECAUSE it followed the Fate route, and the manga is of UBW because that's the most popular route, for reasons I suspect are entirely do to with the collective hard-on most people have for either Rin or Archer.

Alternatively, it has to do with the fact that people cannot "accept" the message HF, and the game, are trying to tell them. How I see it, anyway.

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Nasu did say they were all valid, the 'True Ending' that Kaisos is mentioning only refers to the ending of the game itself, not the totality of the story.
YES. This is what I am saying.

However, all three routes together form a linear path, a MESSAGE, which I covered in an earlier post.

Again, the simple fact that routes have to be played in linear order convinces me that HF is the ending of the story as a whole.


Goddamn UBW fanboys.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Oooh, so that tiger dojo was refering to Heavens Feel being the end of the game, rather then which story is the real one?
No.

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Originally Posted by sento View Post
Really people, the game ITSELF says that HF True is the True Ending in Tiger Dojo 39.
Spoiler for space:
It doesn't matter what Nasu says, in this case, because Nasu makes things up on the spot and contradicts himself constantly.

What should matter is what the game itself says.
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Old 2009-03-30, 22:35   Link #1209
Deadwings
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Not in a game with a linear design like F/SN.

With Tsukihime, sure, where all routes are open from the beginning, but with F/SN you have to play the routes IN ORDER.

While I'm sure many people would have liked the game to stop at UBW, it doesn't, and this is for a REASON.
Well I wasn't thinking about the linear thing but you're right that way. I was trying to say that all the endings, without thinking wich is the first, the last, the asnwer or the question, they don't invalidate each other. But I didn't deny that HF was the true ending or whatever.

And I'm taking the post from the Image thread here because of obvious reasons

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No it didn't. Ilya dies and he becomes Archer.
Ah? when does she die? I see her in the epilogue of the fate route.

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Worth chasing to your own demise? Worth chasing to the point where you sacrifice your own family and your own happiness for an immaterial ideal?

Kiritsugu proved the fatality of that way of thinking.


(snip)


And the choices everyone sides with are the ones he makes in UBW. Of course.

I will say that was my least favorite route, in opposition to everybody on the Internet.

I don't know how one is supposed to reconcile the continued idealism of UBW with the cynicism of HF (and Fate/Zero), for that matter. However, unlike most players, I went into the game with the mindset that HF was the True End to the story... and enjoyed it considerably more for it.

But there's no point in arguing in a place where everyone disagrees with me.
Please don't feel pressured. It's just that that's the point of discussing

I also played the game to see the HF route, but for different reasons (Fate was in the anime and UBW was too spoiled everywhere, hard to not know what happens) and I repeat myself, I liked it, more than the fate route . It's just that it's not the same as the other two routes. IMO, while HF is a drama the other two are action stories and thus they attract more attention.

About Shirou's death wish, I'll just say that through history, heroes were born, used, adored, killed, inmortalized, crucified, martyred and etc. Be it in the form of political/religious figures, rebel leaders, kings, conquerors, liberators and etc. Heroes are needed in the actual society, and heroes are sacrificed for the actual society. It's been like that in the past and will always be like that. Of course, the "heroes" I'm talking about don't have Reallity Marbles but you get the point I'm not saying Shirou's ideals are wrong or right, but they are needed. One might call it a "Necessary evil"?
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Old 2009-03-30, 23:12   Link #1210
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Deadwings View Post
Ah? when does she die? I see her in the epilogue of the fate route.
Ilya always dies one year after the war. Archer/Shirou never quite gets over it.

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Originally Posted by Deadwings View Post
About Shirou's death wish, I'll just say that through history, heroes were born, used, adored, killed, inmortalized, crucified, martyred and etc. Be it in the form of political/religious figures, rebel leaders, kings, conquerors, liberators and etc. Heroes are needed in the actual society, and heroes are sacrificed for the actual society. It's been like that in the past and will always be like that. Of course, the "heroes" I'm talking about don't have Reallity Marbles but you get the point I'm not saying Shirou's ideals are wrong or right, but they are needed. One might call it a "Necessary evil"?
Oh yeah, definitely, and even though he formally "gives up" on his ideals in HF, a modified version of them is still clearly driving his actions and decisions.

And he ends up saving everyone except Saber and Ilya anyway.
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Old 2009-03-31, 00:49   Link #1211
ShinMasaki
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
With Tsukihime, sure, where all routes are open from the beginning, but with F/SN you have to play the routes IN ORDER.
Wrong here. With Tsukihime, when you play, only Arcueid's True Ending is available at the start. After you complete that, it allows for Arc's Good Ending and Ciel's True/Good Endings. After you complete an ending for both Ciel and Arcuied at least once, it opens up the story to the Far Side of the Moon routes: Akiha, Hisui, Kohaku. The game makes you play through Arc's ending, then Ciel's ending first before you even can consider any other ending. Sounds like F/SN where you have to clear Fate before it opens up the option to do UBW only after which you can choose HF.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Yeah, the final dojo states that HF is one possible outcome, but what it actually says is that HF is "one answer" to how Shirou should live.

It also says that Fate and UBW present "the question" of how he should live.

Logically, this means that they are exempt from being "the answer".
This is a given. What I was saying is that the story ends with a question. It only allows for multiple answers. Given that it says specifically that both Fate and UBW set up a question mean that they are definitely part of the story and can be seen as endings to the question. Given that it says that HF is MERELY one possible answer means that there is no real answer and that the story naturally should end at a question. It's like asking a rhetorical question or a question with an infinite number of answers, any answer is right but no answer is 'correct'. (i.e. What number is larger than 5?)

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Not really. Most people rag on the anime BECAUSE it followed the Fate route, and the manga is of UBW because that's the most popular route, for reasons I suspect are entirely do to with the collective hard-on most people have for either Rin or Archer.
Actually, according to the author notes in the manga, the reason why the UBW story part is chosen for the manga is because it was the author's favorite path in the game.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Again, the simple fact that routes have to be played in linear order convinces me that HF is the ending of the story as a whole.
So by this logic, would you consider Kohaku's ending in Tsukihime to be the true ending? The follow-up: Kagetsu Tohya (written by Nasu) and various evidence across a bunch of Tsukihime info sources including but not limited to, Tsukihime Dokuhon PlusPeriod, Tsukihime Plus-Disk, Tsukihime Plus+Disk, Moonlit World encyclopedia, typemoon.wikia, etc. indicate that the biggest probability is that Arcuied's True ending is correct with Akiha's True ending being the next most probable.

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It doesn't matter what Nasu says, in this case, because Nasu makes things up on the spot and contradicts himself constantly.


Did I read that right...This line totally destroys everything...I mean, if the creator of the entire Nasuverse says something, I'm fairly sure that means something. In regards to the Nasuverse, Nasu trumps Akasha.

Well, then what's to say that him writing HF wasn't just him making up another story because the F/SN game felt too short?

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I love it when people treat me as though they're superior to me. Very flattering.
To me, I see it as you refusing to accept what the game itself says.

It does not say that Heavens Feel is the de facto ending, it is merely one possible answer to how Shirou should live his life. If it was intended to be the absolute answer, than this would not be worded as such.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
What should matter is what the game itself says.
Indeed.



Just one of the (many possible) answers is Heavens Feel. That does not mean that it is the only answer, nor is it the right answer, it is just one of them.
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Old 2009-03-31, 01:06   Link #1212
Kaisos Erranon
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Exactly. Fate and UBW are the question, and HF is an answer. This is what it says.

Question =//= answer. But I really want to stop arguing about this.


And that philosophy of never listening to what Nasu says outside of the games is one I've heard touted by Nasuverse fans a lot... you've seriously never heard of it before?

The idea is you only pay attention to what the games/novels say because Nasu contradicts himself and changes his mind a lot.


And I didn't know that about Tsukihime. Thank you for informing me. My argument pretty much falls apart here, though I'd think that all the routes would paint a complete story of the whole plot though, and that none of them would explain everything on their own. Not mutally exclusive, etc.

The game still SAYS HF is the True Ending though. That's all I can really argue at this point. I'm not saying any other routes are less valid, I'm saying that that is how the game, as a whole, is meant to be viewed and that that's how it ends.

I can also see you really don't want to admit HF exists or has any validity though, which is my problem.

Again, it's probably because HF wasn't UBW, right?
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Old 2009-03-31, 02:28   Link #1213
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
True Endings of those respective routes.
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
No.
You are very quick to dismiss these points, and yet both of them are in no way proven incorrect.

Ilya saying 'the true ending of Fate/Stay Night' could very easily be referring to the fact that the game ends soon. In fact, in context with the whole 'it's been a long road' speech that they give prior to that claim, this would be an accurate interpretation.

I mean, if we're going to 'interpret' things, then why don't we look at the description of the Fate route?

"It's a route that represents Fate"

This line, describing the Fate route as the route that represents the game, could be interpreted as Fate being the 'one true route' just as easily as 'the true ending of Fate/Stay Night' can be interpreted as it being the 'one true route'

Now combine the former two points in this new light. Every route has an ending labeled the 'true ending' and the context of the conversation seems to refer to the line talking about the ending of the game, rather then Heavens Feel being the true route.

Seems to me that it's still a matter of 'which route do I want to believe in?'

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Exactly. Fate and UBW are the question, and HF is an answer. This is what it says.

Question =//= answer.
And answer =/= true route.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Again, it's probably because HF wasn't UBW, right?
Was it really necessary to make such a pointless accusation? I can just as easily say that you defend a single line with multiple interpretations 'because Fate isn't Heavens Feel'

Ported from image thread:

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Worth chasing to your own demise? Worth chasing to the point where you sacrifice your own family and your own happiness for an immaterial ideal?

Kiritsugu proved the fatality of that way of thinking.
And Shirou proved that you can do it right. Your point?

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And this is why people whining about how OOC he is in HF are just trying to justify their viewpoint.
OOC? The hell? A persons character is formed story, Heavens Feel formed Shirou to be as he is. I may not like the way he acted in abandoning his ideals instead of seeking to save Sakura while upholding his ideals, but I see no way to call it OOC.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And the choices everyone sides with are the ones he makes in UBW. Of course.
... Yes? So? It's the UBW route that gives us the most happy ending. Hell, it's the only route that allows Shinji to survive and actually betters him. That's how good of an ending it is. Lots of people are drawn towards happy endings.

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I will say that was my least favorite route, in opposition to everybody on the Internet.
Meh, I've seen many think alike. Prior to the route's release I browsed a lot of forums praising 'the epicness of Heavens Feel.'

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I don't know how one is supposed to reconcile the continued idealism of UBW with the cynicism of HF (and Fate/Zero), for that matter. However, unlike most players, I went into the game with the mindset that HF was the True End to the story... and enjoyed it considerably more for it.

But there's no point in arguing in a place where everyone disagrees with me.
I still don't really understand why you're so insistent that Heavens Feel is the one true ending though. I'm of the opinion that you can choose which route attracts you the most, and consider that one the end. Everybody is happy, Nasu doesn't step on anyone's toes.

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I think everyone's problem with HF is that it's not UBW...
Yes, it's not UBW. But why can't we dislike a storyline? Personally, I dislike the Heavens Feel story because of the whole 'pity poor Sakura' thing. At least the Fate and UBW routes gave me girls that could kick ass throughout the game. Heavens Feel only gave me that during the final day, making most of the route 'oh hey, we need to pity Sakura again.'
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Old 2009-03-31, 04:21   Link #1214
ShinMasaki
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And that philosophy of never listening to what Nasu says outside of the games is one I've heard touted by Nasuverse fans a lot... you've seriously never heard of it before?
It's not so much that Nasu contradicts himself, it's more like...who's the creator of this world? If he can't say something is an ending, than who can?

The game obviously says that Fate and UBW present a question. My point I'm trying to say is that HF is not the True ending because there can be multiple True endings, just because it's not there doesn't mean it doesn't exist. What is true, however, is the fact that Fate and UBW together form a question asking about the existence of Shirou. I'm not saying that UBW is the True ending, I'm just saying that F/SN ends in an open ended question with no intent to have a true ending brought to it.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And I didn't know that about Tsukihime. Thank you for informing me. My argument pretty much falls apart here, though I'd think that all the routes would paint a complete story of the whole plot though, and that none of them would explain everything on their own. Not mutally exclusive, etc.
Unfortunately, once you cross over to the Far Side of the Moon routes, the story becomes totally different and everything changes. You don't get a complete story because it becomes a totally different story separate from the original that can't be recovered. The only reason I can see for adding in the Far Side routes is because people like the Tohno house members and would want to have endings with them.

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I can also see you really don't want to admit HF exists or has any validity though, which is my problem.
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However, unlike most players, I went into the game with the mindset that HF was the True End to the story.
Well, you seem to be guilty of the same thing as people that go into the game NOT wanting to believe that HF is the True End...like myself.

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Again, it's probably because HF wasn't UBW, right?
And you won't believe that the game ends with Fate or UBW because it isn't HF, right?

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The game still SAYS HF is the True Ending though.
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Ilya saying 'the true ending of Fate/Stay Night' could very easily be referring to the fact that the game ends soon. In fact, in context with the whole 'it's been a long road' speech that they give prior to that claim, this would be an accurate interpretation.
Given the text provided, the 'it's been a long road' indication that you've been playing the game for a long time, the words of 'the true ending of Fate/Stay Night' could be interpreted as meaning the game is finally at an end...which is what I was saying earlier. It does not necessarily mean that HF is the de facto truth to F/SN, which is further enforced by the Final Dojo where they say that HF is merely one answer to the question of F/SN.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Now combine the former two points in this new light. Every route has an ending labeled the 'true ending' and the context of the conversation seems to refer to the line talking about the ending of the game, rather then Heavens Feel being the true route.

Seems to me that it's still a matter of 'which route do I want to believe in?'


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Exactly. Fate and UBW are the question, and HF is an answer. This is what it says.

Question =//= answer.
And answer =//= true route.
AN answer =//= THE answer. Only means it is a possibility.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
OOC? The hell? A persons character is formed story, Heavens Feel formed Shirou to be as he is. I may not like the way he acted in abandoning his ideals instead of seeking to save Sakura while upholding his ideals, but I see no way to call it OOC.
While you can say that the character is the character he is because of the story, I still feel he is OOC. His actions and decisions that formed his way of life and his foundation for living when shadowed with the deaths of all those from the fire...I feel there is no way he can abandon these as easily as he does in HF. From the start, because of this, HF feels more like a fanfic to me than an actual story meant to be canon with the universe provided by the previous stories of Fate and UBW.

If you look at the previous two stories as a base for Shirou's development as a person, this sudden change of personality can only really be described as OOC. Much like looking at a fanfic story and say...Rin spontaneously is a nice person and ends up going on a date with Issei...the personality is forcefully changed simply to make them fit in the story...that's what I call OOC, and that's how I feel Shirou is in HF.

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Meh, I've seen many think alike. Prior to the route's release I browsed a lot of forums praising 'the epicness of Heavens Feel.'
Likewise. I could not read a thing of Japanese at the time so I didn't bother going through the route, so I browsed forums. A lot of people really enjoyed the route for various reasons. I just didn't like it as much as the others. Not saying their opinion of liking HF over the others is a wrong opinion, everyone is entitled to their preference.

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Personally, I dislike the Heavens Feel story because of the whole 'pity poor Sakura' thing. At least the Fate and UBW routes gave me girls that could kick ass throughout the game. Heavens Feel only gave me that during the final day, making most of the route 'oh hey, we need to pity Sakura again.'
I just disliked it. It was okay, but felt way too forced. Things seemed too sudden and 'why didn't you do that before' 'why did you do that' moments were plentiful for me as I went through the route.
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Old 2009-03-31, 04:56   Link #1215
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While you can say that the character is the character he is because of the story, I still feel he is OOC. His actions and decisions that formed his way of life and his foundation for living when shadowed with the deaths of all those from the fire...I feel there is no way he can abandon these as easily as he does in HF. From the start, because of this, HF feels more like a fanfic to me than an actual story meant to be canon with the universe provided by the previous stories of Fate and UBW.

If you look at the previous two stories as a base for Shirou's development as a person, this sudden change of personality can only really be described as OOC. Much like looking at a fanfic story and say...Rin spontaneously is a nice person and ends up going on a date with Issei...the personality is forcefully changed simply to make them fit in the story...that's what I call OOC, and that's how I feel Shirou is in HF.
By that logic you could just as easily say that Archer at the end of UBW is OOC, or Ilya for switching sides so quickly. While I agree that the switch to abandon his ideals is a rather drastic one, and written a tad to rushed for my tastes, it is by no means a rare occurrence in stories, not even Fate itself.

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Originally Posted by ShinMasaki View Post
AN answer =//= THE answer. Only means it is a possibility.
I'm still confused as to how the whole answer thing makes a route the true one. Or what makes the former two questions at all. I mean, hell, you could just as easily switch UBW and Heavens Feel in order of play and have UBW be an answer.
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Old 2009-03-31, 07:05   Link #1216
ShinMasaki
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
By that logic you could just as easily say that Archer at the end of UBW is OOC, or Ilya for switching sides so quickly. While I agree that the switch to abandon his ideals is a rather drastic one, and written a tad to rushed for my tastes, it is by no means a rare occurrence in stories, not even Fate itself.
I don't really mind by the end of UBW. I agree with you that a character is created by the story they are a part of, however, if the character starts out different than what you know to be the original (Shirou from Fate and UBW vs Shirou from HF) then it is a character that is OOC.

A transition into their new character from event transpiring throughout the story develop a character. Like character A who slowly becomes character B because of the trials and tasks put before him vs a character that starts out as character B.

I'm not too sure if this is a good explanation, it doesn't really seem like one to me, but in short, I do think that the events from UBW and Fate create the characters that exist at the end of their respected routes and I do see them as IC characters. HF, the characters in there seem to have taken a drastic change in too little a time span for it to be a gradual change and acceptance of ideas but rather they had them forced upon them for the benefit of the storyline.

With Archer, the conviction that Shirou has during their fight makes him believe in what he once believed in as well, which should be easy considering who Archer is. With Illya, its not so much that Illya hated Shirou, but rather was jealous of him for 'taking' her father she loved. I can believe jealousy to be overturned rather easily compared to hatred.
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Originally Posted by http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Illyasviel_von_Einzbern
Her personal interest in Shirou seems conflicted, due to the fact that Kiritsugu, whom she had loved as her father, remained in Japan as Shirou's guardian after betraying her family by destroying the long-sought Grail.
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I'm still confused as to how the whole answer thing makes a route the true one. Or what makes the former two questions at all. I mean, hell, you could just as easily switch UBW and Heavens Feel in order of play and have UBW be an answer.
Okay, given the Tiger Dojos, you know that Fate and UBW are two sides of the same story giving you a complete look at the F/SN story. It also says that the two stories together present a question concerning how Shirou should live his life. Then, in Final Dojo, it says that an answer to the above question is the HF route.

That is that part that Kaisos is not looking at, that it says it is only an answer and not the answer. What Kaisos is seeing is Tiger Dojo 39 where it says (after the 'It's been a long road') you finally arive to the end of HF, the true ending to F/SN. If you take the 'It's been a long road' into context with the question/answer part, you can see that HF is meant to be only an answer. If you don't take the 'It's been a long road' part into context, you see Tiger Dojo saying that HF is the true end to F/SN and that it is an answer to the question provided. That said, it is also the only available answer provided. What is larger than 5? If you had to choose from a specific set of answers, than 6 is correct and 4 is not. In that context, the question is requiring a specific answer and HF is the only answer available to choose from, instead of seeing it as an open ended question which the clues in text lead you to believe.
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Old 2009-03-31, 14:21   Link #1217
Kaisos Erranon
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Okay, I wasn't necessarily targeting you guys with my comments about everyone saying "Shirou is OOC, this route doesn't exist, UBW is the only true end bawww". I used to hear this around a lot, so...

...That's probably my biggest beef with the western fandom as a whole, how much they harp on the percieved lack of quality in Heaven's Feel.

I really don't like it when people pretend something was never written or never happened because it makes them feel better inside.

[QUOTE=ShinMasaki;2310055
That is that part that Kaisos is not looking at, that it says it is only an answer and not the answer.[/QUOTE]

...I've been admitting this. What I was saying was that UBW is not the "answer" the game offers and that HF is the only "answer" we are offered in the game.

"How should Shirou live his life? Well, there's a lot of possibilities, but here's an answer, and probably the best one given the circumstances." That's how I see it.

Yes, UBW ends happily. Is everything solved? Is the world saved? Did Shirou do anything that really mattered in the long run? Did he absolve his father?

I'd say no, but some people have different ways of looking at things, so...


And switching HF and UBW wouldn't work. HF is strongly reliant on the player knowing everything else to tell its story.
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Old 2009-03-31, 14:34   Link #1218
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
...That's probably my biggest beef with the western fandom as a whole, how much they harp on the percieved lack of quality in Heaven's Feel.
I don't really see a need to harp on it... sure, I'll share my dislike of the route, but I'm also quick to admit that everything from last day forward was filled with much win that had me lock my eyes to the scream and growl in frustration as dinnertime came around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Yes, UBW ends happily. Is everything solved? Is the world saved? Did Shirou do anything that really mattered in the long run? Did he absolve his father?

I'd say no, but some people have different ways of looking at things, so...
They do, and I see things in UBW that you glance over, just as the reverse is most likely true for Heavens Feel. Though I have this sinking feeling you're not really interested in debating that, so I'll just leave this one as it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And switching HF and UBW wouldn't work. HF is strongly reliant on the player knowing everything else to tell its story.
How so? I mean, what points from UBW are specifically needed to explain Heavens Feel?
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Old 2009-03-31, 15:33   Link #1219
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
How so? I mean, what points from UBW are specifically needed to explain Heavens Feel?
Archer, mostly. What Rule Breaker does... most of the stories behind the servants that die early in HF... a bunch of stuff.
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Old 2009-03-31, 16:30   Link #1220
Keroko
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That's not really required to know to play Heavens Feel though. In fact, it'd make UBW an all the better ending, since all the 'questions' (pardon the pun) you may have after finishing the route are answered in UBW.
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