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Old 2009-04-29, 23:03   Link #1241
Seitsuki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
See, this. This is why I liked Heaven's Feel. Developments like this.
but she does bad things, i mean baaaad things D: not bad like Fate from nanoha, but evil bad. hell she gets nihilistic enough to torture her own sister for crying out loud. and you (shirou). it's *DEVELOPEMENT*, sure, but still..
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Old 2009-04-30, 00:18   Link #1242
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikita View Post
but she does bad things, i mean baaaad things D: not bad like Fate from nanoha, but evil bad. hell she gets nihilistic enough to torture her own sister for crying out loud. and you (shirou). it's *DEVELOPEMENT*, sure, but still..
I consider the idea that the main heroine of the arc also being the main villain to be genius, myself.


Hell, Kiritsugu did baaaaad things too, and Shirou worshipped the man.
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Old 2009-04-30, 00:24   Link #1243
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
So do I... Sakura is my least favorite heroine, but I still like her.
For me, this is what made the route boring. Rather then spending time fighting awesome battles alongside Sakura, revealing major plot points alongside Sakura, and saving the day alongside Sakura, I spend my time pitying poor abused Sakura, taking care of poor sick Sakura and ended up saving poor warped Sakura.

I know there are many who like these kinds of stories, but for me it was a letdown. After revealing Sakura to be Rider's true master, I was cheering and expecting to be fighting alongside Rider and Sakura. The disappointment that came when I realized this was not the case was rather large.
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Old 2009-04-30, 00:56   Link #1244
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
For me, this is what made the route boring. Rather then spending time fighting awesome battles alongside Sakura, revealing major plot points alongside Sakura, and saving the day alongside Sakura, I spend my time pitying poor abused Sakura, taking care of poor sick Sakura and ended up saving poor warped Sakura.
Not every route should be the same, either.
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Old 2009-04-30, 01:12   Link #1245
Seitsuki
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Not every route should be the same, either.
you could just argue that not every route plot point works. or more precisely works well.
sakura's character design is good and different from the others: twisted childhood, abusive family, dark secrets but the way events played themselves out it's very hard to cheer for her. instead of an uplifting redemption story we're treated to the slippery slide into ultimate darkness where so many people get hurt because of one person's selfishness (i personally was outraged at Sakura's corruption of Saber after still feeling the fuzziness from Fate). personally the fact that the only way to resolve the situation required the sacrifice of Iriya (my favourite chara <3) or Shirou (me) really didn't help.
and Kiritsugu wasn't a *bad* guy as such, he still had the best intentions with the safety of the ones he loved as his motivation. not sakura; her actions were for herself.
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Old 2009-04-30, 01:33   Link #1246
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Not every route should be the same, either.
I'm not saying they should, however the option they chose for this route is one I did not like, hence why I found the Heavens Feel route to be boring and Sakura an uninteresting heroine.

Like I said, I like my heroines to be heroines. Not damsels. I've seen enough damsels in TV, anime and manga to last me quite a while.
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Old 2009-04-30, 01:34   Link #1247
Deadwings
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Ultimate darkness FTW! no seriuosly, I'm all for it I admit I missed the epic fights, that's why I prefer UBW probably. However I must say I was recomforted to read a sad story for a change, lately most mangas/animes I see lack that bit of darkness HF offered me. Personally, I love twisted characters with even more twisted stories and really f***ing twisted developments, it makes everything very interesting. I'm won't try to justify Sakura, HF reminds me of Elfen Lied, anime that still keeps the number one of my favourites. That said, I think I don't need to explain why I like HF
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Old 2009-04-30, 02:34   Link #1248
Seitsuki
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i get it. you're just eeevil -_-
Well i get what you're saying, that a straight "guy-meets-girl-cue-kickass" story isn't as appealing as a story which contorts more than an asian gymnast but still i find the actions taken in HF to be inexcusable. sakura is not a damsel, those girls are nice enough to sit tight for a hero to come rescue them. sakura instead gets up and rushes headlong into damnation with her increasingly erratic acts, all the while still expecting someone to come "save" her. the story of HF is fine, i didn't like most of the developements but no one is dissing HF. just.. sakura.
oh wait keroko is dissing HF :P nvm.
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Old 2009-04-30, 03:54   Link #1249
Keroko
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I'm not dissing HF, I'm just saying that I didn't like the story. It's not like my opinion determines whether the route is good or bad.
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Old 2009-04-30, 06:07   Link #1250
Seitsuki
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no, don't apologise! i stand with you! together we shall cast down the heretic and place Iriya in her rightful place as Queen!
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Old 2009-04-30, 09:08   Link #1251
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikita View Post
and Kiritsugu wasn't a *bad* guy as such, he still had the best intentions with the safety of the ones he loved as his motivation. not sakura; her actions were for herself.
I consider a bit of selfishness to be better than going ridiculously overboard in trying to save the world, but hey.
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Old 2009-04-30, 10:26   Link #1252
mAc Chaos
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A "bit" of selfishness. :P
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Old 2009-04-30, 10:43   Link #1253
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by mAc Chaos View Post
A "bit" of selfishness. :P
Hey, like I said, she's significantly less selfish than most of the other major villains, barring Kotomine.
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Old 2009-04-30, 10:51   Link #1254
Keroko
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Is she? "I don't care how many people die, as long as I get senpai" puts her on the same level as Gilgamesh, Caster and Zouken, not lower. However, her willingness to inflict near fatal wounds on the person she loves in order to keep him with her puts her a step above. Not even Caster would willingly inflict wounds on her love.
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Old 2009-04-30, 11:52   Link #1255
Kaisos Erranon
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Good point. However, she still isn't as bad as Zoken.

She never let her grandson rape her adopted granddaughter. Repeatedly. Non-stop.

(Despite this, I still think that's better than imposing your definition of justice on the world by killing a fuckton of people using asshole tactics, then calling yourself a superhero.)

Fact is, there's a lot of moral ambiguity in the Nasuverse, and there are very few characters that are truly good and pure and just. Saber is one of them.
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Old 2009-04-30, 14:22   Link #1256
Keroko
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No, she raped her own sister. Non-stop. And unlike Zoken, Sakura was not going to give Rin any respite. Sakura got breaks, Rin did not. She's not as bad as Zouken, she's worse. Zouken at least tortured Sakura for a purpose, Sakura torturing Rin was just revenge and spite.

(yes, I'm being rather defensive on this, because Sakura turning evil was one of the few things I liked about Heavens Feel. )

And I didn't think Kiritsugu called himself a superhero... didn't he always become sad when Shirou called him that?

Agreed on the third bit though.
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Old 2009-04-30, 17:53   Link #1257
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And I didn't think Kiritsugu called himself a superhero... didn't he always become sad when Shirou called him that?
That's only after Kiritsugu realized what an ass he had been.


Also, to further your point, "revenge" would imply that Rin had done something to Sakura necessitating revenge. She really didn't. Sakura was mostly being jealous.

(Also, doesn't she only rape Rin in a bad end?)
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Old 2009-04-30, 19:56   Link #1258
Deadwings
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
She's not as bad as Zouken, she's worse. Zouken at least tortured Sakura for a purpose, Sakura torturing Rin was just revenge and spite.
Then if someone hits me (on purpose) and I hit him back I'm doing wrong, but if I hurt a defenseless someone in order to obtain something then it's right. Probably Rin didn't deserve what she got but your logic isn't right.

In the end Sakura is responsible for her actions, yes, but her circumstances are being ignored I think. Please, she's been raped and tortured ever since she was a little child (probably seven or eight) with or without breaks, and she was literally abondened by her real family, probably knowing that the "transforming" methods were going to be harsh. I think she had plenty of reasons to be angry. Ok, she ended killing hundreds of people who had nothing to do with her and my argument falls there. But still, it's not like she just became a killing machine with no reason.
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Old 2009-04-30, 21:34   Link #1259
swtrooper42
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Originally Posted by mikita View Post
Are you talking about the scene when Shirou accepts to free Taiga? I think all that happened was that he allowed Caster to remove his command seals (they can only be transferred by consent or hacking the appropiate part off)
Shirou accepts Caster's offer to surrender and join here on the condition she lets Rin go. Saber goes along with it at the chance of obtaining the grail. Caster accepts but when Rin is out she turns on Shirou and knocks him unconscious. Flaskforward to Shirou in some sort of tank of liquid. Caster mentions that thanks to him and Saber they were able to summon the holy grail. Shirou's mind seems to be gone. Rin shows up and after saying how sorry she is he ended up like this because of Caster, smashes the tank to provide Shirou with a mercy kill.

Anybody want to explain this?
My guess was on Caster turning Shirou into a living wand of projection because she mentioned wanting to do something like this in other parts of the route.
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Old 2009-04-30, 23:51   Link #1260
Seitsuki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swtrooper42 View Post
Shirou accepts Caster's offer to surrender and join here on the condition she lets Rin go. Saber goes along with it at the chance of obtaining the grail. Caster accepts but when Rin is out she turns on Shirou and knocks him unconscious. Flaskforward to Shirou in some sort of tank of liquid. Caster mentions that thanks to him and Saber they were able to summon the holy grail. Shirou's mind seems to be gone. Rin shows up and after saying how sorry she is he ended up like this because of Caster, smashes the tank to provide Shirou with a mercy kill.

Anybody want to explain this?
My guess was on Caster turning Shirou into a living wand of projection because she mentioned wanting to do something like this in other parts of the route.
eh heh. i hafta admit.. i have no idea what you're talking about.
did this happen in the game? the only scenario i can remember which comes close to this is when Saber/Shirou decide to go assault the temple, shirou gets warped out and painfully killed but even this is far from your scene.
where did the tank come from? <_<;; sounds awfully like NGE.. sure it wasn't a doujin/fanfic or something?
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