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Old 2009-08-06, 18:57   Link #1421
mAc Chaos
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Well, it also would've kind of went against the whole direction the story had been going, with Saber having to learn to accept the past and move on. If Shirou listened to Kotomine he would've just done the opposite of what he had been telling Saber to do all along.

Wouldn't most people decide to just go with it and use the Grail though (assuming it worked)? I mean, he could undo it all with a snap of his fingers.

I also thought that it was also because of those things that he became the person he was, so they are, in a way, living on through him.
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Old 2009-08-06, 19:36   Link #1422
rastilin
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Wouldn't most people decide to just go with it and use the Grail though (assuming it worked)? I mean, he could undo it all with a snap of his fingers.
I doubt even the grail had that kind of power. It was all a plot to get everyone together to access the third magic.
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Old 2009-08-06, 23:50   Link #1423
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flinch View Post
After enduring long amounts of suffering, you don't get happy endings. What you get is less suffering, but you will ALWAYS suffer from your past; that's basic psychology.
If you see it that way...living in happiness for a long time makes you feel no sadness? I doubt it.
Actually both Shirou's(HF version) and Sakura's dream came true with the true end. And both if them are such a strong persons, so they're able to move forward.
If they weren't strong enough Shirou should've given up on Sakura should've turned into Dark instantly after the first servant's death.

About HF and Kotomine's offer:
If Kotomine said so then the Grail could do it. Because Kotomine never lies, just keeps parts of the truth to myself if haven't asked about it. And he's one of the most knownledgable ones about the (Corrupted )Grail. They explained the Grail could complete the wish but at the cost of killing everything else probably. Well, at least with a 1st class mage using it.

Heavens Feel is the 3rd magic and the Grail war is an attempt to obtain it. The magic's original effect is making a phisical body to a soul. In short ressurection. Perhaps as every one of the true magics it has a strong connection with the Origin. If a magus able to connect to the origin he/she obtains the power to do almost anything. So the grail's purpose as wish-granting object isn't a fluke.It's just tainted now and only accepts wishes about murder.
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Old 2009-08-06, 23:59   Link #1424
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Shiro is actually the weakest in HF; he gave up on his ideals to save someone he cared about. If your ideals are what make you who you are, you follow them until they are realized, or they destroy you; deviating from that shows that your ideals are not as great as you believe them to be.
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Old 2009-08-07, 00:51   Link #1425
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That's the weakness actually. Hiding behind somone other's ideal. It wasn't Shirou's ideal or the thing he really wanted to. He wanted to protect the ones close to him. Insome sense Shirou purified his ideal. He set his head on saving Sakura no matter how much sacrafice he must take for it. The way to help somone the same way to hurt others. He realised he can't be indecisive about his decisions even if it endangers someone. He can't save everyone, just a certain group he cares about. He set his head on a "possible" goal and did the impossible. Defeated one of the strongest servants, endured unimaginable pain, stayed true to his goal despite his breaking down mind, saved the world from an absolute end and lastly saved Sakura, whereof everyone gave up.
The things he did were possible ones, but things no one could imagine as possible.
Maybe Shirou didn't become the so called "hero of justice", but he's a "normal human"(funny thing he lose his body as a price becoming healthy in soul) now.

I think Shirou's saved at last in HF. He gave up on his thoughtless self-sacrafice and learnt to aquire happiness for himself.
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Old 2009-08-07, 01:05   Link #1426
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Ilya even acknowledge the fact that he throws away his ideals to save Sakura. That makes Shiro a coward for not standing for what he believes in. Knowing what will happen if you stand up for your ideals, even if it is your death, shows courage to defend what you hold most dear to you. If something is more important than your ideals, then they were never really ideals at all. If you hide behind ideals you say are important to you but you'll throw them away for something, you're nothing but a coward.
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Old 2009-08-07, 01:15   Link #1427
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You're right. They could've taken both way. But sticking to your ideals while it conflicts your real belief is nothing more than a moronity. The ones doing it nothing more than a strange kind of religious fanatics. An ideal's purpose to build, to show an example in your indecisiveness, not to destroy you. I know it sounds like something from Archer's mouth a bit...
But I think somone as strong willed as Shirou should able to live his life without an ideal to lean on. That's why I think HF shirou's stronger.
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Old 2009-08-07, 03:36   Link #1428
Kaisos Erranon
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F/SN is... NOT kind to idealism, I've noticed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flinch View Post
Shiro is actually the weakest in HF; he gave up on his ideals to save someone he cared about. If your ideals are what make you who you are, you follow them until they are realized, or they destroy you; deviating from that shows that your ideals are not as great as you believe them to be.
Not this shit again.

Shirou's ideals are unrealistic crap, which even Kiritsugu ended up realizing when he really got down to it.

HF Shirou has become his own person, rather than becoming an amoral hired killer like his father.

You'll notice HF Shirou doesn't exactly throw away his ideals... he simply modifies them. Like, "I'm going to save everyone, but if I have the choice between everyone and Sakura, I'm going to choose Sakura."

It's love. Love doesn't have to make sense.

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If you hide behind ideals you say are important to you but you'll throw them away for something, you're nothing but a coward.
So staying alive through half the game with swords slowly growing through his brain makes him a coward. Saving the world forever WHILE STILL REDEEMING HIS GIRLFRIEND makes him a coward.

Sure.

Shirou is more of a hero in that route than in any other.
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Old 2009-08-07, 04:32   Link #1429
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That's why I thought HF Shirou surpassed Archer in terms of GARness.
If they animed HF instead of Fate I think we have twice as many Shirou fans as now.
(other thing it wouldn't make any sense, because HF's story feels a bit incomplete without the previous two)
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Old 2009-08-07, 04:58   Link #1430
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
(other thing it wouldn't make any sense, because HF's story feels a bit incomplete without the previous two)
Yeah, the game is made to be seen as a complete story. Look at it like this:


Fate: IDEALISM. Shirou remains an oblivious moron. Also the chick he likes died.

UBW: IDEALISM with compromise! Shirou's still an oblivious moron but at least he begins to realize it. Also epic Archer and Gil are epic.

HF: CYNICISM. Shirou is no longer an oblivious moron and has discovered what truly matters in life. Also he's the GARest thing around.


Apologies to idealists. Don't worry, you'll grow out of it soon.
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Old 2009-08-07, 05:19   Link #1431
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My ancestors, the Poor Fellow Soldiers of Christ and the Temple of Solomon, fought died for their ideals. Idealism is something that some of us inherit and pass on. There is nothing wrong with being an idealist, because accomplishing the goals that others claim unattainable is the greatest joy in life.
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Old 2009-08-07, 05:49   Link #1432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flinch View Post
My ancestors, the Poor Fellow Soldiers of Christ and the Temple of Solomon, fought died for their ideals. Idealism is something that some of us inherit and pass on. There is nothing wrong with being an idealist, because accomplishing the goals that others claim unattainable is the greatest joy in life.
Then you can understand HF shirou fairly well. For him saving Sakura was that unattainable goal. Because of the similarity of their lovers name and the similar amount of willpower put on the goal I tend to call HF Shirou Syaoran sometimes.

I have no problem with ideals themselves. They're good and bad at once. The only thing it determines the ideal is usefull or a dead weight yourself. To be honest, most of the people(probably including me) is not strong enough to live without some kind of ideal. The ideal is like a light in the darkness. The only problem is that there's no faultless ideal and that light may leads us to the wrong place.
An ideal only has use until it doesn't bring you into unnecessary conflicts(it depends on you to decide when a conflict's unnecessary) or make you indecisive about something. Because then the ideal betrays it's original purpose.
Anyways, HF shirou didn't betrayed his ideal. It wasn't his to begin with. He discovered/made his own ideal and fought for it.

P.S: And even if people are walking on a wrong road, they can discover things they can't on the "right way". Maybe this is because there's not a single wrong way. If somone's able to walk on a path without regrets, then it's his "right way". So neither HF nor UBW Shirou was wrong.

Last edited by willyvereb; 2009-08-07 at 06:07.
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Old 2009-08-07, 06:42   Link #1433
rastilin
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The first two paths were worthy of respect because Shirou tried to be more than merely a mortal, he was heroic, and that's both interesting and compelling. HF Shirou took the path of humanity, giving up and compromising; trading away the lives of people he never even met because it was simply easier.

There is no difference between HF Shirou and Kotomine and the only reason to cheer for one over the other is because they're the designated hero.

If I wanted to read about people compromising with evil and sacrificing others I could read real-life stories about conflicts going on today. That's not something that cries out for an animated movie with magic and divine spirits.
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Old 2009-08-07, 07:13   Link #1434
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In Nasu's works even with divine spirits, vampires and mages the people are still people. It was revelant in the previous routes and even more in HF that FSN isn't the "light phantasy" genre, where the word is filled with either honorable or utterly dishonorable people. in Nasuverse magic isn't omnipotent and it's more like a different kind of science.
But back to topic:
Kotomine and Shirou was similar. Of course they are, because both sacrafices everything for a sole reason. The only difference is the reason: saving Sakura(and perhaps the word itself) or awakening the source of all evil just to prove his theory. Both are a reasons more valuable than themselves.
But back to "Syaoran"(HF Shirou): Shirou never tried to be more than a mere mortal. Except if you say he tried the impossible, then HF shirou did the same. To be honest he did even more impossible things if we just look on the simple facts without further descriptions.
Withstood immesaaurable pain, defeated one of the most powerfull servants(berserker and saber...perhaps both with some help), saved the world and he saved Sakura.
Neither of them seemed possible, but he managed it.
And in some sense shirou kept his ideal. It's just that he realised it wasn't his ideal completely. He realised his own ideal and acted that way. He realised that whatever he does he sacrafices others. And if that's the case the very least he must choose whom to keep.
Maybe HF Shirou's deeds wasn't that honorable, but his will was the strongest of all routes. If anything that made him a hero.
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Old 2009-08-07, 07:30   Link #1435
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Maybe HF Shirou's deeds wasn't that honorable, but his will was the strongest of all routes. If anything that made him a hero.
Stronger than Fate route? Well I suppose if you define "Hero" as someone who is powerful. Then yes, he was a hero. Sacrificing others because it helps you get laid is therefore heroic.

Quote:
Withstood immesaaurable pain, defeated one of the most powerfull servants(berserker and saber...perhaps both with some help), saved the world and he saved Sakura.
Neither of them seemed possible, but he managed it.
There's a joke that in Fate route Archer stays behind thinking "I could waste this guy even if all that was left of me was just an arm duct taped to someone else's body, but then I would never get a crack at Saber.". Perhaps? It undermines your argument when you have to lie outright.

Quote:
But back to "Syaoran"(HF Shirou): Shirou never tried to be more than a mere mortal. Except if you say he tried the impossible, then HF shirou did the same. To be honest he did even more impossible things if we just look on the simple facts without further descriptions.
Withstood immesaaurable pain, defeated one of the most powerfull servants(berserker and saber...perhaps both with some help), saved the world and he saved Sakura.
He does all these things better in other routes, for better reasons.
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Old 2009-08-07, 07:46   Link #1436
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If you simply deny everything I say then I think it's useless to convince you.
But a reminder: mindlessly jumping to save others is not willpower, sacraficing something valuable to you with a goal in mind IS willpower.
Anyways, Archer has a better reason than that to not use those skills Shirou uses(like tracing a current servant's noble phantasm) and to refrain from using UBW. And because EMIYA and Shirou are two different entities the joke about the screw is only a joke, without grounds.(Actually that comic has posted in the image thread not a long time ago)
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Old 2009-08-07, 08:05   Link #1437
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But a reminder: mindlessly jumping to save others is not willpower, sacraficing something valuable to you with a goal in mind IS willpower.
Shirou was willing to forgive and forget Sakura trying to murder him, which is well within his rights. But he was also willing to forgive her murdering people throughout the city; which is not ok. Of course they're just faceless mooks, we never see them so it's easy to just ignore it. But that's not heroic. That's not even good. Here is a man who's willing to give the shaft to others in exchange for his own happiness. Far from being heroic, that's not even properly human.
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Old 2009-08-07, 09:12   Link #1438
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Lol.. Do you think killing her and giving away her happiness is right because she did so? Do you think doing to somone the same thing he/she did to you or to others is righteous? No it only makes you somehow the same as the one you killed.

But anyways, Sakura was as much a victim as the ones she killed. Saving one life instead of many is selfish, but acting against your own heart is foolish. Shirou's reason for being a superhero was to help and protect the ones close to him. He decided to save sakura no mater what even if he must be as much as her. He sworn to find new happiness instead of the lost ones. Compared to our idealists Shirou, this needs much greater courage and willpower. And no, it's not inhuman or villianous. The thing Shirou did was very humane. People don't weight the same in our eyes, that's a fact no matter how much we try to deny it. We must accept it like the fact we constantly sacrafice something for gaining anything and we constantly steal "things"(be it objects, money, future, luck, wishes ideas) from others to incerease ours. Something isn't creatable from nothing.
HF Shirou's will that heroic. Fate and UBW Shirou faced both physical problems similar to the HF one, but neither of them was even nearly close to face the inward(emotional, spiritual etc...) problems he faced. And he kept his will even if it was a selfish one.

HF was the most "real" one. Because it showed us a mature Shirou who wasn't scared about being soiled and becoming a sinner. He faced it and accomplished what he wanted.
The thing what Fate and UBW Shirou wanted was created by his own hypocrisy. They not even nearly not faced with the fact what means killing somebody. Was Fate Shirou concerned about Kotomine's wishes and future? No...he killed him out of rage and his so-called righteousness. And HF Shirou killed much more with the mindset knowing how serious his deed was.
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Old 2009-08-07, 09:29   Link #1439
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The thing Shirou did was very humane. People don't weight the same in our eyes, that's a fact no matter how much we try to deny it. We must accept it like the fact we constantly sacrafice something for gaining anything and we constantly steal "things"(be it objects, money, future, luck, wishes ideas) from others to incerease ours. Something isn't creatable from nothing.
Precisely. HF Shirou was merely a mortal. He didn't rise above other humans like a hero should.

Quote:
HF was the most "real" one. Because it showed us a mature Shirou who wasn't scared about being soiled and becoming a sinner. He faced it and accomplished what he wanted.
Quote:
Lol.. Do you think killing her and giving away her happiness is right because she did so? Do you think doing to somone the same thing he/she did to you or to others is righteous? No it only makes you somehow the same as the one you killed.
You're contradicting yourself. Either it's ok to soil yourself or it's not ok.

We as a society execute serial killers. Which Sakura is. It wouldn't be so bad if they just brought it up or something. But it's dismissed as irrelevant. One who sacrifices others for their own sake is a monster, not a hero.
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Old 2009-08-07, 09:53   Link #1440
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All Shirous from what I remembered are all good in their own rights. I dunno what is the deal being real here. HF Shirou stands out because of his inner conflict, but if we looked into HF more, he had miracles (+luck) clinging on to him too.

In Fate, he succeeded to fulfill his 'ideal' because he got the power and a powerful partner. I never read about him throwing away reality just to pursue the ideal. He did just that because the ideal is attainable and the right thing to do at the time. Nothing challenged that ideal. (But then, I never thought being a superhero was the theme of Fate, so...But I think that's just me)

In UBW, Shirou kept his ideal because he has the spirit and the power. Archer did warned him about the consequence, and Shirou accepted that. He even said even when the choice comes, he'll still do his best and never regret it. Here his superhero ideal was challenged a bit, but Shirou never disregarded the possibility of something 'real' hitting him back.

In HF, Shirou had nothing except Archer's arm, which we can say is a double-edged sword. His ideal is not attainable. But he still pursue his ideal of saving someone by saving the one he loved, which is saving Sakura. He had almost nothing, so he had to give up his superhero ideals that time.
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