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Old 2009-08-10, 01:29   Link #1461
willyvereb
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No...Kirigitsu's ideal was a nice one, but for about 99.9% of the people is just plain ridiculous. It was childish, because it was so "pure" it didn't make distinction between two human's life no matter how much attachment they may have. It was overly idealisitic and with that extremely devestating to oneself. Just look on Kirigitsu's life: He was treated like a villian, he didn't allow himself happines nor love, he wanted to save lives, but he killed instead. Kirigitsu's life was anything but not beutiful.
Saber has a somewhat similar life, but she only acted that way with the nameless masses. Lancer made difference between pople quite often. Gilgamesh's lived for the beutiful things(and to obtain them), he clearly made distinction between two different person's lives and he always placed himself to the front of importance.

So it's safe to say there wasn't any hero with the same ideals as Shirou or Kirigitsu. Or if it was the people remember them as villians more than heroes.
We don't have limitless powers so we can only save the ones we really want to. IF we want to save everyone we fail in the end because we can't put enough effort per individual by doing so.

Flinch: So Gawain was more like HF shirou. And same with Lancelot. The only actual way to save lives with the ideal Kirigitsu has is either becoming a merciless machine or having simply a ridiculous luck(Shirou...and it's advised being a protagonist of the story too!)
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Old 2009-08-10, 10:38   Link #1462
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Gawain fought Lancelot 3 times, nearly beating him each. After his strength began to wane, Lancelot struck a fatal wound to the side of his head that split his helmet open. Gawain survived to fight again 3 weeks later, to have the same thing repeated, receiving the same wound in the same place. The same happened in their 3rd battle. When news of Mordred's treachery reached them, Arthur and Gawain left. Upon returning to Britain, a battle ensued. Gawain's wound opened up in the fighting and he died from it.

Note: there was never a knight who embodied chivalry as much as Gawain. That makes him as idealistic as the Fate Shiro. he was defined as The Pinnacle of Chivalry.
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Old 2009-08-10, 10:58   Link #1463
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Chivalry doesn't equals Shirou's or Kirigitsu's idealism.
Qeastions: Do you kill your best friend if he(even unconciously) will cause the death of more people?(do you handle every life as equal?)
No.
Do you spare the lives of the enemy in the middle of battle?(so do you value the life of others no matter what?)
No.
A really chivalrious person should answer that way to the questions.So the chivalry is not even nearly equals Kirigitsu's childish ideal.
The closest one to that ideal is the classical JRPG protagonists who wants to save everyone and they are as lucky to achieve it. HF Shirou's ideal is closer to the knights' chivalry(perhaps his ideal is more crueler).

Last edited by willyvereb; 2009-08-10 at 11:39.
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Old 2009-08-10, 21:28   Link #1464
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Actually, Gawain and Lancelot were best of friends. Lancelot had cut down many good knights while coming to the aid of Gwenwyfar (no thanks to Mordred and Agravain trying to ruin Lancelot). Among the knights he slew were Gaheris, and Gareth. Gareth idolized Lancelot like a god, and all the knights knew it.

Note: If my best friend were going to cause the deaths of many people, he already knows that I wouldn't hesitate to kill him.

Also, when Gawain fought against Lancelot's forces on the first day, Lancelot refused to fight Gawain one-on-one, but sent Sir Bors instead. Gawain easily overpowered Bors, then proceeded to strip him in front of both armies and sent him back to Lancelot, alive but humiliated. Sir Bors was clearly his enemy, as he had left the court with Lancelot, but was spared because the conflict was not with him or the enemy army as a whole, but with Lancelot himself.
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Old 2009-08-10, 23:07   Link #1465
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I always felt that Saber and Archer had extraordinarily similar lives. Both sacrificed so much of themselves for what they believed was the "greater good", and yet both of them were betrayed by that ideal at the end.
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Old 2009-08-11, 00:02   Link #1466
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Quote:
Chivalry doesn't equals Shirou's or Kirigitsu's idealism.
Qeastions: Do you kill your best friend if he(even unconciously) will cause the death of more people?(do you handle every life as equal?)
No.
Do you spare the lives of the enemy in the middle of battle?(so do you value the life of others no matter what?)
No.
A really chivalrious person should answer that way to the questions.So the chivalry is not even nearly equals Kirigitsu's childish ideal.
The closest one to that ideal is the classical JRPG protagonists who wants to save everyone and they are as lucky to achieve it. HF Shirou's ideal is closer to the knights' chivalry(perhaps his ideal is more crueler).
If you already know how we think, why even bother asking. The entire conversation can be conducted with only your participation.

Quote:
Note: If my best friend were going to cause the deaths of many people, he already knows that I wouldn't hesitate to kill him.
Damn right. I've already stated to my mates that if I go psycho, they can waste me with no hard feelings. That's only if it's on purpose. If there were people who could only be saved by a bystander's death, I wouldn't intervene. That's different; they can take their chances. But note that I've never been to hot on the perfect uniqueness of human life. That's why Shirou's ideal is moving, while my own approach is NOT.

Quote:
A really chivalrious person should answer that way to the questions.So the chivalry is not even nearly equals Kirigitsu's childish ideal.
Historically Chivalry as I understand it was a pretty mean concept. Chivalry didn't so much apply to ALL enemies, it only really applied to all KNIGHTS. Because knights were worth ransoming and soldiers weren't worth the cost of feeding them.

The Chivalry in Fate isn't that perfect either because we know the Knights were perfectly willing to murder their mates if they so much as thought it was necessary. They might feel bad about it, but they would do it. If Saber really cared about people's lives above all, she would have stepped down and let the rebels win. From her point of view she never blamed them anyway; I don't either.

Last edited by rastilin; 2009-08-11 at 05:19.
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Old 2009-08-11, 10:18   Link #1467
willyvereb
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Well, it seems I was wrong.
As an excuse I was never really interested in the arturian legend or the knights of the round table(and perhaps it wasn't a popular theme of discussion in my country).
But still, Kirigitsu's ideal was much more extreme than the knights' code of chivalry.
My information and memories about the knights' tales are cloudy, but if I remember well none of the knights choose to save everything, no matter what(like Shirou). In the end they forced into situations where they must sacrafice somone for others. And the knights have loyality, something that hardly binds Kirigitsu. He throws it away if it hampers him "saving lives".
So even after that I still keep my opinion about HF shirou being closer to the knights' chivalry. But well it's a matter of opinion. All three ideals are similar to the chivalry. Shirou's usual one is the most naive and contains the least compormises(but that's why I think it's impossible in the end), Kirigitsu's version even more closer to that, but the methods tainting it, HF shriou's aim is less greater, but the only one allows healthy life. Maybe Shirou's usual one represents the real aim of Chivalry, but I think in the end HF Shirou's the one moreliike to the one actually every chivalrious knight kept(especially because it has the loyality as deciding factor...Shirou "pledged alliance" to Sakura[more like to her real need...so saving her at all costs])

Man...few days ago I was against the idea being UBW/Fate Shirou's ideal=Knight's ideal. As always I tend to change my opinion really quick.
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Old 2009-08-11, 10:34   Link #1468
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From the game it really looks like that the heroes concern themselves with food more than Holy Grail and I like it!
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Old 2009-08-11, 10:47   Link #1469
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I hate the breakfast scenes... they always make me hungry.
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Old 2009-08-11, 10:54   Link #1470
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Well, you mean saber?Well, they needed something of cutesy from her. And really, somone from the Dark Ages should value the quality of food greatly. saber is a king before a woman according to her exclamination. It means she has the appetite of a king.
But from other servants? Archer had little interest in food(though he probably cooks well) and other servants shown little interest too. The only exceptions are maybe Lancer and Rider(if I am correct she has as much apetite or more than her master). But I guess it was only a joke.
(and I took it seriously...)
@Flinch:
Reeally? It has the opposite effect on me. It seems I may able to eat conceopts?
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Old 2009-08-11, 12:30   Link #1471
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I also want to eat when I hear those kitchen sounds etc. especially when I play the game at night. Man it's so unfair that they eat and I don't.
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Old 2009-08-11, 12:44   Link #1472
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About the cooking parts...I both love them and hate them for the reasons mentioned by the previous posters. I've even started making the stuff they eat, e.g. toast, jam, boiled eggs and tea for breakfast (Saber's favorite) or bento lunches such as Shirou or Sakura make.
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Old 2009-08-14, 22:29   Link #1473
orangejuicetang
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Originally Posted by 17th_warrior View Post
I also want to eat when I hear those kitchen sounds etc. especially when I play the game at night. Man it's so unfair that they eat and I don't.
I know exactly what you mean
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Old 2009-08-17, 18:48   Link #1474
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did hollow ataraxia also appear for the PC?
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Old 2009-08-17, 18:53   Link #1475
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I'm pretty sure Hollow Ataraxia appeared only on the PC.
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Old 2009-08-18, 07:58   Link #1476
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Just finished HF route. Man, that was good.
UBW and HF >>>> Fate
Also HF has best CG for me, at least we see Shirou a lot more.
And joke from HF cracked me up when it wasa morning and Shirou had a boner and when Tohsaka told him that he masurbates on girls he like.
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Old 2009-08-18, 10:21   Link #1477
calorie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 17th_warrior View Post
Just finished HF route. Man, that was good.
UBW and HF >>>> Fate
Also HF has best CG for me, at least we see Shirou a lot more.
And joke from HF cracked me up when it wasa morning and Shirou had a boner and when Tohsaka told him that he masurbates on girls he like.
Totally agree with you on UBW and HF being better than Fate, at least plot-wise. Though now that I'm nearing the end of HF route (on day 15 at the moment) I kind of miss those long meal scenes and funny conversations with Saber - who could have known how complicated everything is and just how much was happening behind the scenes. Fate was rather naive, both regarding Shirou's mindset and the plot events that weren't nearly as gruesome, I kind of miss that.

That joke was funny yeah, Heavens Feel feels a lot more like an ero visual novel than the other two routes. Oh, and god is it long...it's taking me forever to finish it.
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Old 2009-08-18, 10:34   Link #1478
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Why is Fate route thought to be the most idealistic one? Isn't it on par with UBW?
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Old 2009-08-18, 12:11   Link #1479
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No. Shirou has hardhips too, but he never had conflicted with his ideal. He just acted as the hero of justice all the way. In UBW Archer represented that oppression, but becvause of the situation's nature Shirour emained true to his ideal. Now in HF he was conflicted between his ideal and his true self/desire. He choose the later. He still somehow an idealists, but he knows he must choose the people he wants to protect, because his powers are limited.
Interestingly,he choose the most impossible one.

Maybe Shirou has an extreme habit of choosing always the more difficult one.
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Old 2009-08-18, 19:17   Link #1480
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crap! i doubt hollow atraxia got a voice patch Q_Q or even an english patch D;
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