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Old 2009-12-03, 16:52   Link #1761
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Shirou was probably unconsciously using the skill "Broken Phantasm", overloading the weapons with his Prana which caused a temporary rank-up in exchange for the weapon's destruction (which was irrelevant in Projection). I just think that was something he might've picked up by Archer, else he couldn't have matched Gilgamesh' Gate of Babylon - a single rank of difference when usage is the same is pretty gigantic - Rho Aias was somewhat weaker than thrown Gae Bolg which is B+ ranked, but even Rho Aias + Pegasus w/ Bellerophon (Bellerophon itself is A-ranked) had 90% of its power offset by Excalibur. Then again, Excalibur is just hax like that. Anyway, that's just theoritizing, the bottomline is that if Shirou was copying the weapons he saw the downrank should've been enough for Gilgamesh to win, but it was an even match turned to Shirou's favor because he could pull out weapons faster (though he would be destined to lose since Rin would eventually run out of Prana). That's why I think he was using the weapons as Broken Phantasms.
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Old 2009-12-03, 17:42   Link #1762
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Broken Phantasms? Do you know how long it takes for Archer to prepare such things? Painful seconds the very least. To charge up Hrunting it usually takes 40 seconds for Archer, though it's bit different than an usual Broken Phantasm. Also even if he can pull the weapons out faster it means nothing if the enemy has wider section of choice absolutely better physical stats, higher quality weapons and also more experience.
It was just a seriously dumb hax from Nasu to make a somehow awesome scene. But with that though he should've made Shirou team up with Archer and co-beat him. Actually it would've been much much more sensible and probably more badass-awesome.
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Old 2009-12-03, 17:52   Link #1763
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Broken Phantasms? Do you know how long it takes for Archer to prepare such things? Painful seconds the very least. To charge up Hrunting it usually takes 40 seconds for Archer, though it's bit different than an usual Broken Phantasm. Also even if he can pull the weapons out faster it means nothing if the enemy has wider section of choice absolutely better physical stats, higher quality weapons and also more experience.
I recall it being mentioned in UBW that he can do it fast if needed, only of course it won't be as good. Meh. And physical stats don't really matter when you're telekinetically tossing blades from a distance at each other. Shirou cutting Gilgamesh' arm when he tried to pull out Ea isn't totally ridiculous either, as Projection copies to some extent the skill and power of the original wielder of the weapon (or something to that extent anyway).

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It was just a seriously dumb hax from Nasu to make a somehow awesome scene. But with that though he should've made Shirou team up with Archer and co-beat him. Actually it would've been much much more sensible and probably more badass-awesome.
It wasn't that bad imo. It might've been better with Archer, but oh well. If I may say so myself, I find it slightly more agreeable than the Lolavalon solution.
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Old 2009-12-03, 23:13   Link #1764
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The way I understood it, the difference in rank doesn't really make a difference in how the weapons are being used... Conceptually the originals are more powerful, sure, and this gives them a greater mystery, but it doesn't affect the weapon itself. Shirou's projections are perfect in everything except rank. Even more, I'm pretty sure the game makes the point that in a straight battle of Noble Phantasms Gilgamesh's are superior. The thing is, the two are just flinging them at each other. The concept of the weapons are being ignored and instead you've got two objects moving at really high velocities crashing into each other. They're the same size, weight, everything and their mystery isn't being activated so they end up destroying each other and all that hits Shirou is phantasm debris.

As for the final hit? Yeah, it's a little cheap but it still makes sense. Had Gil gone all-out from the beginning Shirou would've been toast, but he was expecting to just sword-rain him and that failed. This was somewhat surprising and threw him off balance. Then Shirou got aggressive and Gil got angry enough to pull out Ea. Unfortunately, it DOES take time to charge up and pull out an individual weapon from the vault and Shirou was very likely channeling the full abilities of the sword he was using, which includes the speed of a true heroic spirit.
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Old 2009-12-04, 01:33   Link #1765
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yet the majority of his abilities come to fruition after he's dead... how ironic.
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Old 2009-12-04, 02:08   Link #1766
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the problem is that Shirou is inferior in terms of intelligence and lacks the battle experience Gilgamesh possesses. Not to mention the much slower reflexes. Those are pretty important things when they're shooting at each other with swords. If you react much faster if you know the battlefield much better and also if you're smarter then it means you have the upperhand in the same telekinetic weapon-throwing contest. Even if Shirou can pull out those swords instantly Gilgamesh still has the upper hand with his experience.

Also the breaking of Noble Phantasms is somehow laughtable. How fast they flew then? Berserker swings his non-Noble Phantasm weapon with supersonic speeds and it doesn't break. The prana burst's description specially mentioned at Saber that she needs to use a holy sword or demonic sword class weapon to not break it while using that(in short she needs to use a Noble Phantasm). And about how fast Gilgamesh shoots those Noble Phantasms then? Mach 10? I doubt. Mach 2 at best. So there's no way for them to simply break because even a non-Noble Phantasm(probably reinforced by magic) was capable of withstand the force when Berserker and Saber clashed swords.

Kaizer63's theory about Noble Phantasms though may apply. So they're materially about as tough as the original. Afterall the cause for the breaking of his projections were his lack of confidence and improper image in them.

Also Shirou didn't only swordrained Gil. He rushed in and striked in melee. It's impossible for him to mach Gil speed so he shouldn't have been able to but theorise that first Gilgamesh left him to. But even then he would be able to react much faster and simply avoid the strike or even parry it and hurl Shirou back tens of meters away like he's some pillow. Instead Gilgamesh speaks like he's cornered.

Maybe UBW's hidden power is to turn confident heroes into depowered clowns of themselves?
Otherwise it was a total irrealistic impossible hax.
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Old 2009-12-04, 02:28   Link #1767
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the problem is that Shirou is inferior in terms of intelligence and lacks the battle experience Gilgamesh possesses. Not to mention the much slower reflexes. Those are pretty important things when they're shooting at each other with swords. If you react much faster if you know the battlefield much better and also if you're smarter then it means you have the upperhand in the same telekinetic weapon-throwing contest. Even if Shirou can pull out those swords instantly Gilgamesh still has the upper hand with his experience.
Um, no. The whole point was that Shirou could use his Noble Phantasms better than Gilgamesh. Because by tracing them he copied the original way they were used by the heroes who wielded them, while Gilgamesh was only a noob who had a lot of swords and liked tossing them at people.

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Also the breaking of Noble Phantasms is somehow laughtable. How fast they flew then? Berserker swings his non-Noble Phantasm weapon with supersonic speeds and it doesn't break. The prana burst's description specially mentioned at Saber that she needs to use a holy sword or demonic sword class weapon to not break it while using that(in short she needs to use a Noble Phantasm). And about how fast Gilgamesh shoots those Noble Phantasms then? Mach 10? I doubt. Mach 2 at best. So there's no way for them to simply break because even a non-Noble Phantasm(probably reinforced by magic) was capable of withstand the force when Berserker and Saber clashed swords.
The reason they broke wasn't their speed, it was the fact that they clashed against other Prana-charged swords of equal power.

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Kaizer63's theory about Noble Phantasms though may apply. So they're materially about as tough as the original. Afterall the cause for the breaking of his projections were his lack of confidence and improper image in them.
Probably, and when it came down to activating them they'd be inferior, but you could say that Shirou's tracing makes up for that disadvantage. In which case using the swordrain was about the worst possible option for Gilgamesh.

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Also Shirou didn't only swordrained Gil. He rushed in and striked in melee. It's impossible for him to mach Gil speed so he shouldn't have been able to but theorise that first Gilgamesh left him to. But even then he would be able to react much faster and simply avoid the strike or even parry it and hurl Shirou back tens of meters away like he's some pillow. Instead Gilgamesh speaks like he's cornered.
Did you even read the part about Tracing giving one the properties of the original wielder of the weapon? All he needed was to use a weapon of someone faster than Gilgamesh. Anyway, Gilgamesh was busy.

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Maybe UBW's hidden power is to turn confident heroes into depowered clowns of themselves?
Otherwise it was a total irrealistic impossible hax.
I think it's well-explained, even though its nigh-perfect usage by an amateur with some Prana battery was over the edge.
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Old 2009-12-04, 02:56   Link #1768
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You certainly misunderstood something. Shirou didn't recreate the experience of the wielder, but of the sword! The only other case is Nine Lives, but there he actually copied a technique with the weapon and not only the weapon itself. Also one can argue this is only pőossible because HF-Shirou's view of the world changed much and so his RM(as he was unable to activate UBW).
Shirou recreates the memory of the sowrd. But it doesn't mean he suddenly gains the fighting skills of the original user. It only means that the sword sometimes react by itself to parry or strike in a way it's used to. And you quote Shirou's statements as unquestionable facts. Shirou many times was wrong about people and also their abilities and sometimes even try to belittle people to gain confidence in fights. Someone who beat demigods not even nearly a noob in fight. And shirou didn't even state something like that. He said Gilgamesh isn't trained with one weapon alone like other Heroic Spirits so his swordplay isn't perfect. That's true as in Fate against Saber Gil's got disarmed at least twice in a row. But he's still much much more experienced than Shirou or even Archer who's got disarmed 15 times in mere seconds against Lancer who supposedly isn't as skilled as Saber. Also Gilgamesh is excellent in analysing battlefields and especially people. He can quickly tell how strong someone in fight and except if the said person has an ability Gilgamesh has no information of(Avalon or UBW) he always uses enough force to defeat them. Perhaps he likes to play around. Anyways UBW's capabilties shoudln't be nearly enough to beat Gilgamesh.
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Old 2009-12-04, 02:58   Link #1769
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Um, no. The whole point was that Shirou could use his Noble Phantasms better than Gilgamesh. Because by tracing them he copied the original way they were used by the heroes who wielded them, while Gilgamesh was only a noob who had a lot of swords and liked tossing them at people.
Gilgamesh was no noob. He was incredibly arrogant, yes, but a very capable warrior. If you doubt this fact, read the Epic of Gilgamesh; the man knew how to fight. Anyone who's fought with blades knows a few simple things. Overconfidence is never your true enemy, it's yourself. Gilglamesh was incredibly overconfident, and with good reason. He had Shiro beat in EVERY way, and Shiro haxed his way against him. Secondly, he could've drawn Ea out immediately; read fate/Zero if you dispute the fact that he could draw WHATEVER he wanted out instantly. All in all, it's a "good guy must win the battle and save the day" kinda battle, so Gilgamesh CAN'T win... even though he should and would have.
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Old 2009-12-04, 03:14   Link #1770
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Gilgamesh was no noob. He was incredibly arrogant, yes, but a very capable warrior. If you doubt this fact, read the Epic of Gilgamesh; the man knew how to fight. Anyone who's fought with blades knows a few simple things. Overconfidence is never your true enemy, it's yourself. Gilglamesh was incredibly overconfident, and with good reason. He had Shiro beat in EVERY way, and Shiro haxed his way against him. Secondly, he could've drawn Ea out immediately; read fate/Zero if you dispute the fact that he could draw WHATEVER he wanted out instantly. All in all, it's a "good guy must win the battle and save the day" kinda battle, so Gilgamesh CAN'T win... even though he should and would have.
There's "very capable warrior", and then there's "Saber-class warrior". Couple that with learning how to fight while watching / fighting Archer and absorbing the knowledge and skills he would obtain in the future, and you can see why Shirou could and would defeat Gilgamesh if the circumstances allowed. We all know Gilgamesh could have solo'd with Ea. But that doesn't mean that, under the proper circumstances, Shirou had no chance. To be honest Nasu wanted that point made here. The fact that Gilgamesh is superior doesn't mean he can't be defeated.

@willyweb: Your way of thinking is wrong. UBW's capabilities should have been and were enough to beat Gilgamesh. Otherwise Shirou wouldn't have won with it. Call it plot hax if you want, but Shirou did win against Gilgamesh in a legitimate manner. Could it have gone another way? Sure. There's no certainty in the battlefield. But UBW works the way it works, and does what it does. Nasu didn't pull anything out of his ass there. Though you are correct about the tracing copying the "experience" of the weapon, the point still applies. He could've traced a weapon that had often been used for sudden strikes like that.
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Old 2009-12-04, 04:05   Link #1771
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@Slash Emperor:
Legitimate manner?Lol...no comment. Or I wish I could do that but I have to explain.
Shirou beat Gil while Nasu intentionally overlooked their absolute difference in terms of physical capabilites also making Gilgamesh almost a whiny chick and even then in the end Shirou only won out of luck. If the Grail would've have not sucked Gil in and then if Archer didn't save Shirou there he would've still lost. Shirou beat him in any way but not a legitimate one. It washuge writing error. Actually a scenario where Shirou and Archer teams up against him would be much much more believable and awesome.
To be honest there's not a single really legitimate way to beat Gil, because it means Gil is serious and then almost nothing can beat him. Well, Primate Murder might especially with Altrouge and Co., but for example according to Nasu not even Arc(due to tricky reasons).
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Old 2009-12-04, 05:53   Link #1772
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@Slash Emperor:
Legitimate manner?Lol...no comment. Or I wish I could do that but I have to explain.
Shirou beat Gil while Nasu intentionally overlooked their absolute difference in terms of physical capabilites also making Gilgamesh almost a whiny chick and even then in the end Shirou only won out of luck. If the Grail would've have not sucked Gil in and then if Archer didn't save Shirou there he would've still lost. Shirou beat him in any way but not a legitimate one. It washuge writing error. Actually a scenario where Shirou and Archer teams up against him would be much much more believable and awesome.
To be honest there's not a single really legitimate way to beat Gil, because it means Gil is serious and then almost nothing can beat him. Well, Primate Murder might especially with Altrouge and Co., but for example according to Nasu not even Arc(due to tricky reasons).
Calling him unbeatable is stretching it far too much. It's important to consider the other aspects and advantages - not everything is a matter of power-level jargon that would makes Dragonball envious. He doesn't stand a chance against Saber as long as she can keep the battle in a close-quarters melee fight and prevent him from getting distance - her speed, combined with Avalon, means that this isn't difficult for her.

But if you mean a straight-up power fight with the opponent fighting on Gilgamesh's terms, then yes, he's definitely the strongest.
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Old 2009-12-04, 09:15   Link #1773
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@Slash Emperor:
Legitimate manner?Lol...no comment. Or I wish I could do that but I have to explain.
Shirou beat Gil while Nasu intentionally overlooked their absolute difference in terms of physical capabilites also making Gilgamesh almost a whiny chick and even then in the end Shirou only won out of luck. If the Grail would've have not sucked Gil in and then if Archer didn't save Shirou there he would've still lost. Shirou beat him in any way but not a legitimate one. It washuge writing error. Actually a scenario where Shirou and Archer teams up against him would be much much more believable and awesome.
To be honest there's not a single really legitimate way to beat Gil, because it means Gil is serious and then almost nothing can beat him. Well, Primate Murder might especially with Altrouge and Co., but for example according to Nasu not even Arc(due to tricky reasons).
Stop confusing "legitimate" with "fair". Legitimate = something that follows the game canon. Fair = something that is unaffected by outside circumstances and is based purely on an exchange of power, at both combatants' prime, without any factors influencing either of their abilities. Yeah, Shirou could never hope to match Gilgamesh in a "fair" fight. But Nasu didn't just go on a limb and said "hey, Shirou can somehow pull a weapon that is stronger than Ea even if he has never seen it, and then he gets 1000 times more powerful because he wants to protect the world". He devised a method for Shirou to win within what his abilities, which had already been designed beforehand, allowed. Even though that method required a lot of factors to be successful, it still adheres to pre-set canon, and honestly, even if it didn't, it'd still be perfectly valid because Nasu was the one who effing wrote it.
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Old 2009-12-04, 10:34   Link #1774
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The only problem is that realistically speaking it shouldn't be close enough to match Gil. If Shirou had somehow a Servant's body too then okay, I can understand it a bit better, but no. Shirou did get a somehow sensible powerup. The thing isn't sensible that he managed to beat Gilgamesh with it...especially using the kind of tactics he did.
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Old 2009-12-04, 13:20   Link #1775
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Additionally, you need to take into account the shape of Shiro's body at the time. After fighting Emiya, he was about to die from what he did to himself. How, in such short time, could he hope to fight someone stronger and even win. Even if he had Rin as a battery, his body would be tapped of strength after... 2, maybe 3 high-level projections; 5 if he's lucky.
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Old 2009-12-04, 13:51   Link #1776
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The only problem is that realistically speaking it shouldn't be close enough to match Gil. If Shirou had somehow a Servant's body too then okay, I can understand it a bit better, but no. Shirou did get a somehow sensible powerup. The thing isn't sensible that he managed to beat Gilgamesh with it...especially using the kind of tactics he did.
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Additionally, you need to take into account the shape of Shiro's body at the time. After fighting Emiya, he was about to die from what he did to himself. How, in such short time, could he hope to fight someone stronger and even win. Even if he had Rin as a battery, his body would be tapped of strength after... 2, maybe 3 high-level projections; 5 if he's lucky.
Sorry, but this is just baseless speculation. First of all, Rin may well have more Prana (that she can use) than Archer. Second, Gilgamesh and Shirou did the exact same thing: toss swords at each other. This doesn't require strength or body speed or anything - what matters are: the speed you can pull out and draw weapons, the quality of the weapons, and the supply of weapons. The third is irrelevant as neither exhausted their supply (Shirou's couldn't be exhausted anyway as long as he had Prana). The second has also proven a null point, even though Shirou's weapons were inferior apparently it didn't matter in the situation where they were used as projectiles. As for the first, here is where Shirou had the advantage - Gilgamesh' weapons could only come out of the Gate so fast, while Shirou's were projected instantaneously. Third, when Gilgamesh pulled Ea... he was pulling out Ea. That created the opportunity for Shirou to blindside him. You can say it's irrealistic for him to be able to do it but... what exactly supports this point? If he had materialized a weapon that was specialized for what he needed to do, which he probably had, he could pull it off while Gilgamesh was, even for a fraction of a second, busy with something else. And finally, Shirou would lose, even after severing Gilgamesh' hand, if not for the timely intervention of the Grail's curse.

The fight was so difficult for Shirou I don't see why you guys are complaining here. First he needed a Reality Marble. Then he needed to exhaust the magical energy of a top-class Magus in order to project enough weapons to push Gilgamesh into a temporary stalemate. He gained the upper hand momentarily with a surprise attack but he would have lost shortly afterwards if not for external factors. While it may be somewhat farfetched, it's certainly not a canonically impossible scenario to envision.

Oh, and Shirou still had Avalon in that route, which was still active according to Archer even if his bond with Saber was severed... probably because Saber was still hanging around. So that should've played a role in his recovery.
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Old 2009-12-04, 14:38   Link #1777
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Yeah, I was gonna bring up how the fight didn't actually end... it got interrupted... would Gilgamesh have won then? And even THEN he still was doomed until Archer intervened.
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Old 2009-12-04, 15:52   Link #1778
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@Slash Emperor: The problem is there's no way for a good surprise attack. Shirou managed to surprise Gil only twice. First when he projected Rho Aias(it's reasonable if he tapped into Archer's mind and stole it...So I don't it needs much retcon). Secondly when he cast UBW. But only the fact he possesses it. His moves should be pretty dull, unrefined and easy to read for Gilgamesh. Even if Shirou can pull out swords instantly while for Gil takes a little while it doesn't matter much as Gilgamesh simply excepts in what patter would Shirou want to attack him. That's the way he did against anyone(only Saber managed to really surprise him in terms of fighting) then why would he be cornered by a mere human who just gained a new shiny ability?

And Rin shouldn't possess more prana than Archer. Archer has the capacity of 1200(TM Wiki) while Rin 1000(400 if we disregard the magic crest as it's filling with prana would cause pains. I doubt a sane mage would ever keep that always filled...perhaps she probably filled it in the times of UBW's story as she collapsed once because of it). Perhaps if you meant the weakened Archer then of course. But to note Rin was almost completely drained when Shirou activated UBW. But perhaps calling out swords from UBW doesn't need prana as they are already here. Though it has some limitations like if I remember Shirou can only put a new NP inside it with at the expense of prana(probably because of the inversed situation...calling out is free, but memorising costs...oposed to the normal case). Anyways Shirou used his own supply of 270 prana by then...mainly to mantain UBW's mad prana consumption.
Anyways it was an overly trying effort from Nasu to make a big damn hero from Shirou by beating the strongest by himself...which resulted in bunch of plot inconsistencies and plot errors.
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Old 2009-12-04, 17:23   Link #1779
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@Slash Emperor: The problem is there's no way for a good surprise attack. Shirou managed to surprise Gil only twice. First when he projected Rho Aias(it's reasonable if he tapped into Archer's mind and stole it...So I don't it needs much retcon). Secondly when he cast UBW. But only the fact he possesses it. His moves should be pretty dull, unrefined and easy to read for Gilgamesh. Even if Shirou can pull out swords instantly while for Gil takes a little while it doesn't matter much as Gilgamesh simply excepts in what patter would Shirou want to attack him. That's the way he did against anyone(only Saber managed to really surprise him in terms of fighting) then why would he be cornered by a mere human who just gained a new shiny ability?

And Rin shouldn't possess more prana than Archer. Archer has the capacity of 1200(TM Wiki) while Rin 1000(400 if we disregard the magic crest as it's filling with prana would cause pains. I doubt a sane mage would ever keep that always filled...perhaps she probably filled it in the times of UBW's story as she collapsed once because of it). Perhaps if you meant the weakened Archer then of course. But to note Rin was almost completely drained when Shirou activated UBW. But perhaps calling out swords from UBW doesn't need prana as they are already here. Though it has some limitations like if I remember Shirou can only put a new NP inside it with at the expense of prana(probably because of the inversed situation...calling out is free, but memorising costs...oposed to the normal case). Anyways Shirou used his own supply of 270 prana by then...mainly to mantain UBW's mad prana consumption.
Anyways it was an overly trying effort from Nasu to make a big damn hero from Shirou by beating the strongest by himself...which resulted in bunch of plot inconsistencies and plot errors.
Alright, I'll stop you here and have you consider this: regardless of how legitimate they might be, have you considered that your arguments can't really be used in this debate? This isn't a discussion about a fight that hasn't happened and we are hypothesizing about how it would go. The fight did happen, and it did go the way it went, and that's canon fact as much as anything else in the series. So when you say "there's no way for a good surprise attack", for example, you're automatically wrong, because obviously there was a way, since Shirou did it.

Now, some of your arguments are of course sound, but you have to see the fact that they can't really work in practice, since they have been defeated by the canon source.

I'm trying to address the issues that seem to bother you with this fight, providing a logical - for me - explanation that could satisfy you, but I'm not in Nasu's head, and I can't help it if you won't accept it. My arguments would automatically be weaker, of course, since I'm trying to support a case that is difficult to support (as Nasu didn't bother going into detail about the mechanics of everything that happened, it's mostly speculation about an already difficult-to-believe situation - I myself wasn't satisfied with how Shirou beat Gilgamesh, but I came to accept it as logical after thinking it through).

Regardless, here's what I believe (after I did some thorough research, because it's honestly been a ridiculous time since I last played UBW, and my mistakes on details were shameful):

1) Once the match came into UBW, Shirou had the advantage in the sword rain exchange. Destructive force and amount was equal, but he had slightly higher drawing speed, which meant Gilgamesh could only defend and not attack. Therefore there is no way that, as long as the fight was limited to a barrage exchange, Gilgamesh could have killed Shirou.

2) The possibilities here would be two: either Gilgamesh could wait until Shirou ran out of Prana (which would happen quite soon), or he had to change tactics from the sword barrage to something else. That something else was Ea.

3) Physically, Gilgamesh has vast advantages over Shirou. There was no possible way Shirou could have conceivably cut him before he could have drawn Ea, if he simply relied on what he himself could do. He had only borrowed knowledge to go by, and he could only measure up - slightly - to an extremely weakened Archer.

4) However, the key to UBW is the ability to copy the weapon's attributes and the "experience" that weapon had accumulated. You may argue, using the Caliburn example, that that should take time, much more time than simply projecting a weapon and throwing it. But we have some factors to consider here.

5) First, Shirou has gained some measure of the "Eye of the Mind" ability that Archer has, which should certainly help with evaluating what needs to be evaluated in order to achieve a certain result - basically meaning that once Shirou had seen all the weapons Gilgamesh had tossed at him, he instinctively knew what he needed to use.

6) Second, Shirou was in his Reality Marble, which means that as soon as he knew what weapon he needed, it would be there, readily projected as perfectly as possible, in his hand and ready to use.

7) And third, you may argue that it still doesn't explain how Shirou could sidetrack Gilgamesh. But you have to consider that Gilgamesh has used a vast variety of Noble Phantasms. Gilgamesh certainly had a scythe that could bend space. A sword that allows the user to move faster is not impossible to envision. In fact I think I've heard of a Norse mythology sword that massively increases the wielder's speed and strength, but I can't really put my finger on it.

8) So basically the moment Gilgamesh began drawing Ea, Shirou knew he had to find a way to strike before he could do it, had the necessary weapon already in hand, and had begun his attack. It's really a matter of arguing whether Gilgamesh could draw Ea faster than Shirou could form a thought. From there on, it's just a matter of speed, and as I explained above it's not difficult to envision a weapon that can give the wielder the advantage there.

9) After the Ea thing, you must consider that Shirou was actually losing - he had injured Gilgamesh but that didn't mean much. He was running out of Prana to keep UBW up, and Gilgamesh could still keep using the sword barrage until that. Nothing had really changed. But then the curse of the Grail acted up, and things ended how it ended. Even then it would have been a draw had Archer not intervened (pretty much one of my favorite bad endings in the game there).

I honestly cannot say any more than this. In fact, I don't think there's much point in saying that much. I'm well aware of the fact that it was an unlikely situation to begin with, and that Nasu's intention was to make Shirou the hero of the day there. But it happened, and as long as everything that happened can be broken down to at least believable parts, I have no qualms with it.
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Old 2009-12-04, 18:41   Link #1780
willyvereb
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Lol...stat-empowering sword...I doubt Shirou would have that. And even if may it's a much muhc greater speculation than the thing I did before. We know somehow well what Gil is capable of and that Shirou is still a human. And I say again: Shirou only recreates the experience of the sword! Not the wielder and iot only gives him a slightly more skill, but isn't the knownledge and experience to fight effectively. Eye of the Mind is a good point, but it still not enough as Gil's senses had about the same effect.

In short it is an obvious plot hole.
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