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Old 2009-12-25, 06:27   Link #1881
MonkeyDude
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If we go by stats, then Lancer is rather superior to Archer in most categories. He outranks Archer by 2 in Strength, their endurance is the same, outranks Archer by 2 in Agility, Archer outranks him by 1 in magic energy though I doubt he has much use for it other than UBW, their luck is relatively the same, and Lancer's NP is better against a fight between the two of them. Lancer's "protection from arrows" ability makes him the natural enemy of the Archer class. Archer also has no real means to counter Gae Bolg (Impaling Barbed Death) due to his low luck stat and Archer has no means to defend himself against Gae Bold (Striking Death Flight).

Don't forget that the (True) Assassin class was never really meant to engage other Servants. They were instead meant to "assassinate" the Masters, which by proxy takes down the Servant as well. There is a reason why the class itself is called Assassin and why it is considered the weakest Servant class.

Lancer was also under the binding of a command spell stating that he can only gauge his opponent's abilities, not actually fight to his fullest. Even if Archer was able to fight "on par" with Lancer, he was also being disarmed at every attack. The only reason Archer even survived his encounter with Lancer at close combat was due to the command spell on Lancer and his then mysterious ability to project swords out of thin air. I don't know if you just forgot the events of UBW, but Lancer utterly destroyed Archer when Lancer actually got to fight at his maximum. Lancer has Archer beat in terms of swordsmanship and Noble Phantasm, with Lancer's NP actually being a famous weapon due to him being a true heroic spirit.

Which raises a question I have. If Cu Chulainn is an actual heroic spirit and Emiya is but a mere counter guardian who somehow managed to weasel his way into the grail war, how is Arturia classified in the Nasuverse? Feel free to correct me if I'm getting something wrong here.
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Old 2009-12-25, 09:43   Link #1882
frenze12
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Originally Posted by MonkeyDude View Post
If we go by stats, then Lancer is rather superior to Archer in most categories. He outranks Archer by 2 in Strength, their endurance is the same, outranks Archer by 2 in Agility, Archer outranks him by 1 in magic energy though I doubt he has much use for it other than UBW, their luck is relatively the same, and Lancer's NP is better against a fight between the two of them. Lancer's "protection from arrows" ability makes him the natural enemy of the Archer class. Archer also has no real means to counter Gae Bolg (Impaling Barbed Death) due to his low luck stat and Archer has no means to defend himself against Gae Bold (Striking Death Flight).

Don't forget that the (True) Assassin class was never really meant to engage other Servants. They were instead meant to "assassinate" the Masters, which by proxy takes down the Servant as well. There is a reason why the class itself is called Assassin and why it is considered the weakest Servant class.

Lancer was also under the binding of a command spell stating that he can only gauge his opponent's abilities, not actually fight to his fullest. Even if Archer was able to fight "on par" with Lancer, he was also being disarmed at every attack. The only reason Archer even survived his encounter with Lancer at close combat was due to the command spell on Lancer and his then mysterious ability to project swords out of thin air. I don't know if you just forgot the events of UBW, but Lancer utterly destroyed Archer when Lancer actually got to fight at his maximum. Lancer has Archer beat in terms of swordsmanship and Noble Phantasm, with Lancer's NP actually being a famous weapon due to him being a true heroic spirit.

Which raises a question I have. If Cu Chulainn is an actual heroic spirit and Emiya is but a mere counter guardian who somehow managed to weasel his way into the grail war, how is Arturia classified in the Nasuverse? Feel free to correct me if I'm getting something wrong here.
I said that you can't go by stats alone, even true assasin (strenght B, lol) has better stats than archer despite the latter owning true assasin in heavens feel. And archer vs lancer in UBW where pretty equal, the only difference was that lancer was way faster. Despite the disadvantage archer managed to fend of lancer (Eye of the mind, if you call this cheating then sabers instinct is also cheating), there was even a scene where lancer full power blow was nullified by archers full power blow (LOL at D rank strenght)
And to be honest at the end that fight ended with a draw, lancer used all his magic with his strongest attack and archer with Rho Aias + arm wounded.

Keep in mind, that nobody other than archer fought lancer (no drawback from command spell), so he probably would be strong enough to fight saber on equal grounds (judging on how Nasu compared both 4 and 5 holy grail lancers).
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Last edited by frenze12; 2009-12-25 at 09:54.
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Old 2009-12-30, 06:22   Link #1883
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I said that you can't go by stats alone, even true assasin (strenght B, lol) has better stats than archer despite the latter owning true assasin in heavens feel. And archer vs lancer in UBW where pretty equal, the only difference was that lancer was way faster. Despite the disadvantage archer managed to fend of lancer (Eye of the mind, if you call this cheating then sabers instinct is also cheating), there was even a scene where lancer full power blow was nullified by archers full power blow (LOL at D rank strenght)
And to be honest at the end that fight ended with a draw, lancer used all his magic with his strongest attack and archer with Rho Aias + arm wounded.

Keep in mind, that nobody other than archer fought lancer (no drawback from command spell), so he probably would be strong enough to fight saber on equal grounds (judging on how Nasu compared both 4 and 5 holy grail lancers).
...when did Archer ever own True Assassin? I can't recall a part in the route in which Archer managed to "own" him so to speak. The one who defeated True Assassin is Kotomine iirc so I'm not sure where you got that piece of information.

Also not getting how you can even compare a full powered Lancer against Archer in UBW. I stand corrected with Archer's Rho Aias barely managing to fend off Lancer's Gae Bolg (Striking Death Flight), but Archer himself wasn't really in any condition to keep on fighting with the damage he sustained from the attack. Hell Lancer just decided to lie down on the grass and relax after the attack so he was more than capable of finishing off Archer after that. I wouldn't exactly call an unscathed Lancer against a heavily wounded Archer a "draw." Though I'm wondering why Lancer didn't just use Gae Bolg (Impaling Barbed Death) to end the fight from the get go...

Lancer was already doing fairly well against Saber in Fate under a command spell so I'm sure he would have fared better if he went all out. While Saber would be the better close quarters combatant, Lancer has the speed advantage as well as having a longer reach. Well that and Lances typically have an advantage over Swords if we go by some RPG games
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Old 2009-12-30, 09:26   Link #1884
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Wounds aside (for a servant a severed arm isn't a big deal anyway) both lancer and archer were pretty much drained, lancer from his strongest attack and archer from defending against it. Lancer suddenly lying down in the gras isn't just for show you know. And yes lancer has super speedy attacks but my point is when it comes to the strenght of their attacks, they are both equal regardless what stats say.

And another thing is the way you make it sound is like "blocking a full power Gae Bolg isn't a big deal" , To be honest archer is probably one of the few servants other than saber (avalon) who is capable of blocking "The Spear of Striking Death Flight".
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Last edited by frenze12; 2009-12-30 at 09:39.
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Old 2009-12-31, 02:01   Link #1885
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Lancer is still under the command spell from Kotomine, so that prevents him from going all out. Besides, his objective was just to keep Archer occupied so he couldn't interfere with Rin and Shirou's fights. Also he rests on the grass because that's just the kind of guy he is.

Having an arm severed is still a pretty big deal for a servant. Especially since most wouldn't live long enough to deal with the aftermath of such an injury. It took Saber a couple days to recover fully from having her heart almost pierced by Lancer and almost being sliced in half by Berserker. It also took Archer a week to recover from being practically eviscerated by Saber.
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Old 2009-12-31, 03:49   Link #1886
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Having an arm severed is still a pretty big deal for a servant. Especially since most wouldn't live long enough to deal with the aftermath of such an injury. It took Saber a couple days to recover fully from having her heart almost pierced by Lancer and almost being sliced in half by Berserker. It also took Archer a week to recover from being practically eviscerated by Saber.
It really depend on the individual servants here. Archer is not a powerful servant and regenerating and healing is no where near his specialty.
Lancer as shown in Hollow atraxia was able to to stand and talk the shit for minutes despite the fact that he is missing half of his chest including his heart. Not to mention in UBW he killed kotomine and burned down illya's castle despite having his heart just skewered with no chance of regeneration possible.

Also in the case of saber I think alot of people here is forgetting the fact that Saber in Fate route and the anime was perhaps the weakest incarnation of arturia because her master is an weak magus. In one of the heaven's feel 's bad ends, dark saber didn't just lose her arm , she got eviscerated in half- complete with her organs being crushed by the attack and spilling onto the floor. Guess what, she fully healed in less than 10minutes.
In fate/zero, attacks which penetrated saber 's armor and body could be healed in minutes if not in seconds. I mean she was shot and got a through and through with an magical 7.62mm FMJ and whats more she got peppered in close quarter urban combat by Freaking Sir Lancelot himself dual wielding mp5's firing mana charged-NOBLE PHANTASM- 9mm Parabellum rounds. And guess what Saber heals from all that and worse in minutes, all thanks to her Einsinbern master.
I m not sure if most people here understand what a regular 7.62 or even a 9mm could do to a human body, the movies and games don't do any of it justice and it just desensitize people from realizing how effective a guns can be at tearing apart the human body. A single 7.62 fired from an Ak is all it takes to severe your arm from your body, you get hit in the head by one ,helmet or no you won't have a head anymore. A .50 from 800 meters hitting your liver can strike with enough force to split you into three separate pieces. In my opinion from a fictional standpoint the fact that some servants like saber and berserker can shrug off and heal from damage like that in seconds is truly impressive.

Anyways sorry for getting off topic and ranting .so yah some servants are really broken and losing an arm or 2 might not mean much.
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Old 2009-12-31, 12:33   Link #1887
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Lancer is still under the command spell from Kotomine, so that prevents him from going all out. Besides, his objective was just to keep Archer occupied so he couldn't interfere with Rin and Shirou's fights. Also he rests on the grass because that's just the kind of guy he is.
No, that was only for their first fight, where he was under the command spell to "fight everyone but do not defeat them." During the second fight at the church, it was specifically pointed out that Lancer was no longer under the command spell and was going full out. It was also pointed out that during the fight itself, despite his original objective, he was full-out trying to kill Archer. He even uses Gae Bolg- Death's Flight against Archer, which really goes far against 'just trying to keep him occupied'.
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Old 2010-01-01, 17:03   Link #1888
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No, that was only for their first fight, where he was under the command spell to "fight everyone but do not defeat them." During the second fight at the church, it was specifically pointed out that Lancer was no longer under the command spell and was going full out. It was also pointed out that during the fight itself, despite his original objective, he was full-out trying to kill Archer. He even uses Gae Bolg- Death's Flight against Archer, which really goes far against 'just trying to keep him occupied'.
While I fully agree with you in that Archer is about as strong as Lancer if not stronger...

But I would like to point out that Lancer was pretty big on promises in life. And while he it was mentiond he didn't hold back. He did think of his promice to Rin a lot during that fight.

Then again Cú Chulainn realy is known for going crazy in battle.
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Old 2010-01-01, 18:57   Link #1889
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Lol...Archer ganking again...
How can he be as strong as Lancer?
He may possess divine blood? No.
He lived in the world rich in magic? no.
He had the chance to perfect his sword skills? Not really. The age of swords ended quite a while before his birth.
Has he extraordinary magic talents? No, though he has an extraordinary magic ability to use: UBW
Conclusion. Archer is a mere human who possesses UBW. He has good range of Noble Phantasms but that's about everything he has. He's a weakling and I still waiting for someone show me even a source where he defeated True Assassin.
Archer's three important factors in battle: surprise,excellent judgement in battle, power of his Noble Phantasms.
If he lacks either of those he's screwed royal against any Servant(except Angra Mainyou)
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Old 2010-01-01, 19:31   Link #1890
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What is it about the shonen aspect of the series that intrigues you all to the series?
I just don't get it.
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Old 2010-01-02, 09:09   Link #1891
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Lol...Archer ganking again...
How can he be as strong as Lancer?
He may possess divine blood? No.
He lived in the world rich in magic? no.
He had the chance to perfect his sword skills? Not really. The age of swords ended quite a while before his birth.
Has he extraordinary magic talents? No, though he has an extraordinary magic ability to use: UBW
Conclusion. Archer is a mere human who possesses UBW. He has good range of Noble Phantasms but that's about everything he has. He's a weakling and I still waiting for someone show me even a source where he defeated True Assassin.
Archer's three important factors in battle: surprise,excellent judgement in battle, power of his Noble Phantasms.
If he lacks either of those he's screwed royal against any Servant(except Angra Mainyou)
scene (ubw) lancer vs archer at the church : Archer (although inferior in speed) did not lost against lancer B strenght attacks, in fact there were scenes were they did an full power blow against each other and they nullyfied each other.
conclusion: archer strenght wise is definitely on par with lancer.

I don't get why people are just constantly ignoring this.

In heavens feel (the last battle archer had before he sacrificed himself) he was fighting true assasin and that fight didn't go well for the latter one. I will safe you the effort from finding this particular scene. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zqZMZ6SbHA
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Old 2010-01-02, 09:31   Link #1892
Repelsteeltju
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Originally Posted by willyvereb View Post
Lol...Archer ganking again...
How can he be as strong as Lancer?
He may possess divine blood? No.
He lived in the world rich in magic? no.
He had the chance to perfect his sword skills? Not really. The age of swords ended quite a while before his birth.
Has he extraordinary magic talents? No, though he has an extraordinary magic ability to use: UBW
Conclusion. Archer is a mere human who possesses UBW. He has good range of Noble Phantasms but that's about everything he has. He's a weakling and I still waiting for someone show me even a source where he defeated True Assassin.
Archer's three important factors in battle: surprise,excellent judgement in battle, power of his Noble Phantasms.
If he lacks either of those he's screwed royal against any Servant(except Angra Mainyou)
What good has divine blood ever done anyone?
The only thing living in a world rich in magic does is increase his magic resistance.
Archer perfected his sword style this is a well known fact. The age in which he perfected it is irrelevant.
Archer's use of projection magic is extraordinary.

lol no. Archer is a counter guardian. Comparing him to a normal human, is so wrong. Even Shirou got the best of Dark Saber, Black Berserker & Gil.

And just so you know. There is no strongest servant...
Every servant can take down any other servant... That's the way the holy grail war works.
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Old 2010-01-02, 10:04   Link #1893
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LoL. Right somehow, but...Gilgamesh could've taken down every single Servant of the 4th War if he wanted to. Nasu stated this. Also probably he could've done the same in the fifth.
So yes as they're both of the same "race" they can kill each other,but... This is like comparing nerd to a pro-boxer.
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Old 2010-01-02, 12:06   Link #1894
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Gil's ego is a part of him in the same way that Archer's eye of mind is a part of him. Gil would be almost unbeatable if his was serious from the start...

Archer is arguably stronger than Shirou in every route. Meaning that Archer could at least have a decent fight against all the servants Shirou beat.
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Old 2010-01-02, 15:12   Link #1895
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LoL. Right somehow, but...Gilgamesh could've taken down every single Servant of the 4th War if he wanted to. Nasu stated this. Also probably he could've done the same in the fifth.
So yes as they're both of the same "race" they can kill each other,but... This is like comparing nerd to a pro-boxer.
Anyone could beat anyone, that's how the world works. Each person has their own advantages, but the sword isn't what matters, it's the person wielding it.

Speaking from opinion, I reckon True Assassin has the best advantage, not because of his daggers or arm or any of that malarky, but because he's the only one who has a damn brain.
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Old 2010-01-03, 04:07   Link #1896
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Speaking from opinion, I reckon True Assassin has the best advantage, not because of his daggers or arm or any of that malarky, but because he's the only one who has a damn brain.
Too bad his daggers are practically useless (well, except against Kuzuki), since everyone he used them on either had instinct, clairvoyance, or protection from arrows.

Although, True Assassin is different from everyone one because Assassin's are made to strike from steal and are usually unsuited for upfront and personal fighting. Therefore, True Assassin has to think about his strikes. Make them stealthy, quick, and lethal. That style seems to grate on the more honorable servants like Saber, Lancer, and Archer, who prefer a straight up fight. Although Archer will admit that style should be used when it is warranted, like a stronger opponent.

So yes, True Assassin does seem to have a brain.
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Old 2010-01-03, 07:28   Link #1897
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My memory of Archer/Lancer fights needs some dusting, but I would reckon Archer would have needed to keep on tracing kanshou/bakuya given that Lancer with command spell was able to disarm him easily enough. His knowledge of orthodox magic and technique is indeed on superhuman levels, but he just can't compare to true heroes aged with time. Given that the simple formula for power levels in the Nasuverse is age, Emiya just can't compete in terms of skill or NP unless the plot dictated it.

Every servant class should easily be able to take out any servant of the assassin class due to said nature of the class. Servant Assassin was not meant to engage other servants but to engage masters instead. The whole killing the weaker master and scurrying into the shadows using presence concealment while watching the servant without a master wither away and disappear thing. Archer beating Assassin is pretty much a given, but I doubt Archer would be able to deal the killing blow given Assassin's class ability and the fact that he actually fights like a True Assassin rather than the fake one. The only way Emiya can probably beat True Assassin is to trap him inside his UBW where Assassin has no where to run/hide. Then it becomes a duel to see which NP would kill the other dude first.

Isn't it a known fact that absurdly overpowered antagonists (Hi Gil!)need some sort of weakness that the absurdly underpowered protagonists (Hey Shirou) no chance in hell to beat said antagonist can exploit? That and plot armor to throw logic out the window should pretty much guarantee a shonen protagonist's victory after many a trial and tribulation.
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Old 2010-01-03, 17:27   Link #1898
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My memory of Archer/Lancer fights needs some dusting, but I would reckon Archer would have needed to keep on tracing kanshou/bakuya given that Lancer with command spell was able to disarm him easily enough.
I don't think he did. During the first fight Archer was letting Lancer disarm him to fuck with his head. At fist he was only using one swortshord ... Archer was holding back since he probably knew Lancer's objective in the first fight.

Archer beating Assassin is pretty much a given, but I doubt Archer would be able to deal the killing blow given Assassin's class ability and the fact that he actually fights like a True Assassin rather than the fake one. The only way Emiya can probably beat True Assassin is to trap him inside his UBW where Assassin has no where to run/hide. Then it becomes a duel to see which NP would kill the other dude first.
You seem to be forgetting that Archer too can swordspam like GoB if he wants to... If Assassin would end up in UWB, he is srewed with no chance of survival.

Isn't it a known fact that absurdly overpowered antagonists (Hi Gil!)need some sort of weakness that the absurdly underpowered protagonists (Hey Shirou) no chance in hell to beat said antagonist can exploit? That and plot armor to throw logic out the window should pretty much guarantee a shonen protagonist's victory after many a trial and tribulation.
The way Shirou beat Gil could be done by Archer as well. I think he would do even better...

Once Gil pulls out Ea everyone would lose, save Saber with Avalon...
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Old 2010-01-03, 19:26   Link #1899
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I think projecting swords at split-second rate is anything but holding back. More like a show-off. And also Lancer wasn't serious either because he faced an Archer in melee and because of the command spell.

Also Shirou DIDN't BEAT Gil in UBW. Look at the scene. He was lucky to keep up UBW that long, catched Gil completely of guard, Nasu made a complete fool out of Gil at the scene+ ignored the difference in physical abilities. And even then he probably could've defeated if Gil weren't sucked in by the Grail. And then he was saved by Archer because Gil can still somehow survive that(well that's for someone who remained standing after most of his body was thorn up by the point-blank Excaliblast).

And perhaps Gil looked down on Shirou deeply. He wanted to completely humilate him by the least effort possible. I don't think that would be the case with Archer. Actually Gil instantly skewered him with GoB as he decided to kill him. But by some thick plot armor perhaps he survived it...but this is another thing.
But if by some thick plot armor Archer too suceed chanting UBW thenprobably he has a higher chance at defeating Gil than Shirou. Still, it's debatable as Gil held back greatly as he looked down on Shirou. It's not the same against a Servant. He holds back but not that much.
Still, Archer at least have a real chance to beat Gilgamesh inside UBW. though not too much if we take out his plot armor.
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Old 2010-01-04, 18:08   Link #1900
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Also Shirou DIDN't BEAT Gil in UBW. Look at the scene. He was lucky to keep up UBW that long, catched Gil completely of guard, Nasu made a complete fool out of Gil at the scene+ ignored the difference in physical abilities. And even then he probably could've defeated if Gil weren't sucked in by the Grail. And then he was saved by Archer because Gil can still somehow survive that(well that's for someone who remained standing after most of his body was thorn up by the point-blank Excaliblast).

And perhaps Gil looked down on Shirou deeply. He wanted to completely humilate him by the least effort possible. I don't think that would be the case with Archer. Actually Gil instantly skewered him with GoB as he decided to kill him. But by some thick plot armor perhaps he survived it...but this is another thing.
But if by some thick plot armor Archer too suceed chanting UBW thenprobably he has a higher chance at defeating Gil than Shirou. Still, it's debatable as Gil held back greatly as he looked down on Shirou. It's not the same against a Servant. He holds back but not that much.
Still, Archer at least have a real chance to beat Gilgamesh inside UBW. though not too much if we take out his plot armor.
Dude, don't get so worked up about Gilgamesh. He's the King Of Ham, the villain cliche so drunk in his own power that he uses it poorly. Sure, he was good in Fate and Zero, but in UBW there was no denying how hammy he was.

It doesn't matter how strong you are; if you don't take a fight seriously, you're going to lose. Gilgamesh doesn't take his fights seriously, which is a massive handicap against him. Contrast that with Shirou's resolve, and it's easy to understand why he lost. Nasu could make a fool out of him because he was a foolish character.
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