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Old 2008-10-16, 03:26   Link #381
Nvenya
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Wow, two episodes in and you're certainly asking for a lot.

Obviously there's still a lot of mystery behind the characters, their motivations and the world they exist in because well...we're only two episodes into the anime. To me it looks as though they are trying to set up a situation where Touma protects Index and Index comes to trust Touma.

I didn't find any of the characters boring, but I did find the discussion a bit long considering they were in the middle of a fight. Yes, this is obviously shounen. If you aren't a fan of shounen then you might not enjoy this one.

As for Stiyl's motivation, it looks like they are probably saving that for another time. As per usual they will keep us in the dark until they feel like telling us his secrets. I also get the feeling he is not a bad guy. The way he looked at Index when they were alone and how he almost caressed her face tells me there is more between them than we(non-manga and light novel readers) know.

I'm certainly enjoying this one.
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Old 2008-10-16, 04:28   Link #382
Mentar
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Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
If it's not a shounen action, then what is it? A mystery series?
What's the point in classifying a show at this early stage in the first place? It has elements of action, drama, comedy and a bit of mystery. It certainly is not "shounen action" in the likes of Naruto, Bleach, DBZ etc.

Quote:
All of it is pretty straightforward. We already know about Index's power and why she'd be highly sought after. [...]

When they weren't fighting, the other half of the episode was spent with them talking about the rules of the universe. It was basically a lecture to the audience. I'm not interested in that crap, I don't watch anime to get lengthy lectures about the magic systems of a fictional universe.
I think it's obvious how much you're contradicting yourself. It's not straightforward and simple, it's relatively complex, since it _requires_ long explanatory parts. To me it sounds that the real beef you have with the show is that it isn't simple enough for you - contrary to what you say. Which in itself is fair enough: You decide for yourself what kind of anime you enjoy. But dissing a show for being too simple while at the same time criticizing it for the details it introduces doesn't make much sense.

Quote:
They spent close to ten minutes in this episode with Touma avoiding fire monsters and Stiyl throwing flashy blasts of fire across the screen. So what if we don't get powerups and obnoxious, conceited exchanges of dialogue, they still have the fantastic powers and lengthy fight sequences that are a hallmark of shounen action series.
Big exaggerations again. The fighting scenes themselves were less than 5 minutes.

Quote:
An anime doesn't have to resemble DBZ or Naruto to be a shounen action series. Claymore, My-HiME and Idolm@ster Xenoglossia are all shounen action, the difference is that they're good shounen action because they actually bother adding a past, a set of motivations, and an intricate web of relationships to their characters.
Mai HiME as Shounen Action? I guess for you a Tsundere is a girl who has a friendly and an angry scene?

Dunno Xenoglossia, but Claymore and Mai HiME took 2 full seasons to develop a the world and background. Index had 2 full episodes, and you compare that? You can't possibly be serious?!? In comparison, Index spent much _more_ time on explaining the universe and developing the characters. Which in fact is what you criticize for doing, before at the same time you chastise the show for NOT doing it. It's schizophrenic.

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That's what makes their stories so involving... you actually come to care about what's going to happen to these characters.
And this is the meat of the dispute. You dislike the characters, for whatever reason. Fine. That's fair enough, and under these circumstances it's also clear that you won't enjoy Index alot. But this is the result of _your_ personal preferences, and not due to a general deficiency of the show itself. So please be honest enough to say so, too - and leave for greener pastures. Or, if you feel the urge to diss it for something, please be so kind to substantiate your claims in a coherent manner, instead of going for self-contradictory name-calling.
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Old 2008-10-16, 05:09   Link #383
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
What's the point in classifying a show at this early stage in the first place? It has elements of action, drama, comedy and a bit of mystery. It certainly is not "shounen action" in the likes of Naruto, Bleach, DBZ etc.
Your definition of shounen action is obviously a lot stricter than mine, but this anime comes across to me as something of mix between Shakugan no Shana and Fate/Stay Night, both of which are obviously shounen action series, IMO (although F/SN also has a fair dollop of mystery).

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
I think it's obvious how much you're contradicting yourself. It's not straightforward and simple, it's relatively complex, since it _requires_ long explanatory parts. To me it sounds that the real beef you have with the show is that it isn't simple enough for you - contrary to what you say. Which in itself is fair enough: You decide for yourself what kind of anime you enjoy. But dissing a show for being too simple while at the same time criticizing it for the details it introduces doesn't make much sense.
Complex in setting and universe, maybe, but simplistic in the things that matter: characters, themes, story. The plot so far can basically be summarized as: they talk, then they fight, then they visit Loli-sensei to heal Index. The setting and the rules of the universe might be "complex" (and it's easy to add faux complexity to a setting, just ask Death Note) but while the elements that make a genuinely good story are simple, then I don't see why I can't call the anime itself simple.

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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Mai HiME as Shounen Action? I guess for you a Tsundere is a girl who has a friendly and an angry scene?

Dunno Xenoglossia, but Claymore and Mai HiME took 2 full seasons to develop a the world and background. Index had 2 full episodes, and you compare that? You can't possibly be serious?!? In comparison, Index spent much _more_ time on explaining the universe and developing the characters. Which in fact is what you criticize for doing, before at the same time you chastise the show for NOT doing it. It's schizophrenic.
But it explained this stuff in an info-dump. That's my problem. Couldn't it have thought up a less yawn-inducing way to do it. As for character development, there's been close to nothing. What do we know about these characters so far? Their basic personalities and their powers. That's the sort of stuff you could look up on a Wikipedia article. Where's the depth? It obviously hasn't been introduced yet. These characters don't strike me as anything more than the most basic of archetypes at this stage. They don't even have any idiosyncrasies. When's that going to change? At least before ten episodes of fight after fight, I hope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
And this is the meat of the dispute. You dislike the characters, for whatever reason. Fine. That's fair enough, and under these circumstances it's also clear that you won't enjoy Index alot. But this is the result of _your_ personal preferences, and not due to a general deficiency of the show itself. So please be honest enough to say so, too - and leave for greener pastures. Or, if you feel the urge to diss it for something, please be so kind to substantiate your claims in a coherent manner, instead of going for self-contradictory name-calling.
I dislike these characters, but I have my reasons, and I'm pretty sure I've spelled them out in a logical and rational manner. Of course this is a consequence of my own personal preferences. I prefer anime with interesting characters and the majority of shounen anime fail to deliver on that, this one included so far. I also prefer action series to have a genuine sense of suspense. Not once did I feel like the lives of any of these characters were in danger (except for Index at stages, but predictably, she'll be fine... there wouldn't be a story otherwise).
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Old 2008-10-16, 05:24   Link #384
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Originally Posted by zzeroparticle View Post
I think Sorrow's managed to nail my issues with this series.

While I sat through episode 2, my brain just turned off and to amuse myself, I replaced the script they used with what I would have written had I been in charge. The way my version and the version shown to us diverged were starkly different with most of the differences coming from giving Stiyl some motivation that we can at least sympathize with even if we don't necessarily agree with it.

For example, that whole scene where Stiyl explains how important Index was could have been rewritten to say something along the lines of "she contains all the big important secrets and we cannot trust you to guard her because there are more powerful organizations that seek to get their hands on her. For the good of this world, we're taking her into our care because you have little understanding in the forces you're up against..." and so on. Bam. Clear motivation. Dialogue that's less pointless than the one that we got instead. And a revelation about more sinister elements lurking out in the whole wide world.

Is this motivation particularly deep? Heck no! But by giving us even this much insight into the character's mindset, we can glean a whole lot more about his personality, making him feel real. Had they given us even that much, I could see the story become much more compelling than it has been so far, but until then, this is an exemplary result of shallow writing.

Erm, I don't suppose you realized that what you're asking for suppose to be revealed near the end of the arc, and not the beginning of it right? I mean, what's the point of showing all your cards this this early in the story?

You don't just throw out stuff like that in the 2nd episode, that's an example of shallow writing, you reveal it bit by bit, before hitting the viewers with a big one.
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Old 2008-10-16, 05:33   Link #385
Bathory Area
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The show reminds me of Shakugan no Shana.That is right!!!!Shana Team is working

on this series and the result show. Toaru Majutsu no Index has great music,fluid

animetion,and some great characters.
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Old 2008-10-16, 08:57   Link #386
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Erm, I don't suppose you realized that what you're asking for suppose to be revealed near the end of the arc, and not the beginning of it right? I mean, what's the point of showing all your cards this this early in the story?

You don't just throw out stuff like that in the 2nd episode, that's an example of shallow writing, you reveal it bit by bit, before hitting the viewers with a big one.
Actually, what zzparticle says is an example for a concise and rational explanation from where a good mystery story arc starts, not where it ends.

Generally speaking, when a shady character has a convincing motivation for what he's doing he should of course explain it to the protagonist be it in episode two or even in episode one. Same goes if he can make up a convincing motivation. Otherwise he should just fight, not talk. And of course, the clueless main protagonist should ask questions when he has the chance.

When it comes to building up and revealing mysteries, rule number one for good writing means that information has to flow (or not) in a natural way. When a story is forcefully bend and twisted in a way that mysteries are built up revealed at a rate the author sees fit then you have shallow writing.
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Old 2008-10-16, 09:08   Link #387
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
Actually, what zzparticle says is an example for a concise and rational explanation from where a good mystery story arc starts, not where it ends.

Generally speaking, when a shady character has a convincing motivation for what he's doing he should of course explain it to the protagonist be it in episode two or even in episode one. Same goes if he can make up a convincing motivation. Otherwise he should just fight, not talk. And of course, the clueless main protagonist should ask questions when he has the chance.

When it comes to building up and revealing mysteries, rule number one for good writing means that information has to flow (or not) in a natural way. When a story is forcefully bend and twisted in a way that mysteries are built up revealed at a rate the author sees fit then you have shallow writing.



No~ What he's implying is that he wants the bad-guy to come out and say that he's not really a bad guy, just that he has to do bad things for the greater good. This is not something you do on first introduction, there's no reason to be so chumpy with a stranger. That is basically revealing all the cards in your hand, you're not suppose to find out how 'deep' a character is on first impression -_-

...For that matter, why are you bringing up mystery story? None of us said anything about mystery genre.
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Old 2008-10-16, 09:44   Link #388
orion
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To much complaining. No title is going to spoonfeed the viewer in that way. The POV is thru Touma so if Stiyl said "I'm not really a bad guy. There is a greater force at work blah, blah." Would you expect Touma or the viewer to swallow it?

No anime watcher is that naive and the Japanese viewers would prob crucify the show's director. No shounen title that is popular (Bleach, Naruto, One Piece) does it.

Anyway looking forward to the subs for ep. 3.
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Old 2008-10-16, 12:12   Link #389
Nvenya
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I actually like the characters in this anime. Of course I don't have a habit of comparing them to every other character that they might have resembled in some other anime. I like going in with a clean slate.

Touma seems like an honorable sort of guy. He's got a sarcastic sense of humor which I like. I also like how he doesn't let his misfortune get him too down. Index is sweet and trusting and yet she's not a pushover. I got quite a bit out of their introduction to each other. I also like the teacher. She smokes, drinks, probably uses her childish appearance to manipulate people and I'm curious to know how her appearance affects her confidence. They might play with it or they might not.

I typically give shounen a break since I know I'm not it's target audience. It seems most shounen have those long discussions and boasting in the middle of a fight and Claymore was definitely not an exception. Though, other than being shounen they aren't really similar in mood at all. I don't think I've ever actually watched a shounen anime that made me think the main characters would die in the first two episodes.
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Old 2008-10-16, 12:20   Link #390
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Er...I think you can blame the original light novel author for that not the director for the original material.

They are going for several volumes of it not one.

Naruto, Bleach and One Piece came from manga which more on action and more action.

Light Novels are prose so they have a different way of capturing the readers imagination.
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Old 2008-10-16, 15:27   Link #391
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Originally Posted by Bathory Area View Post
The show reminds me of Shakugan no Shana.That is right!!!!Shana Team is working

on this series and the result show. Toaru Majutsu no Index has great music,fluid

animetion,and some great characters.
Fire in episode 2 remind me Shakugan no Shana...

Anyway I like the battle in episode 2...
It remind me Mx0...

Anyway the most interest me is loli teacher...
lol..

I didnt read Index light novel and manga so I lazy to comment deeper...
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Old 2008-10-16, 16:24   Link #392
Kinku
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i think you guys are being a bit touchy for a show that has only 2 eps
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Old 2008-10-16, 17:28   Link #393
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
:..For that matter, why are you bringing up mystery story?
Mystery story, story containing mysteries. Call it as you want. Most action anime contain some deal of mysteries and this one is no exception.

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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
:No~ What he's implying is that he wants the bad-guy to come out and say that he's not really a bad guy, just that he has to do bad things for the greater good. This is not something you do on first introduction, there's no reason to be so chumpy with a stranger.
The reason is that it might assure his opponents cooperation. And after all, Stiyl talks a lot. And he did say that he doesn't want the grimoires fall into other magicans hands. He just didn't even try to be clear let alone convincing. For the sake of getting to the following shounen batttle of course. In any other aspect, his behavior doesn't make much sense. zzeroparticle's proposal of what he should have said makes much more sense. And if it's a blatant lie, the better.

I'm saying a character is supposed to act rational. If he comes to the conclusion that revealing his agenda is against his interests - which might very well be - then he shouldn't talk at all or make up some convincing lies. That's all. Which is pretty much the opposite of orion's "spoonfeeding". Spoonfeeding is what we got instead - including a lot of irrelevant details and in disregard of the principle of "show don't tell".

I'm already feeling stupid for pointing all that out because it's not that I'm expecting a brilliant script here - it's certainly not the genre for that. My initial reaction was forget it, it's a cartoony villain doing his cartoony villain thing, let's go on to the F/X. I was just surprised to see you declaring a bug a feature. You say "But a character isn't supposed to do that in episode two!" as if it shouldn't the author's concern in the first place not to bring characters into situations where they have reveal something vital too early.
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Old 2008-10-16, 18:18   Link #394
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Okay, this is going to get us nowhere, I'm just going to point out,

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Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
The reason is that it might assure his opponents cooperation. And after all, Stiyl talks a lot. And he did say that he doesn't want the grimoires fall into other magicans hands. He just didn't even try to be clear let alone convincing. For the sake of getting to the following shounen batttle of course. In any other aspect, his behavior doesn't make much sense. zzeroparticle's proposal of what he should have said makes much more sense. And if it's a blatant lie, the better.
He doesn't want cooperation, he wants intimidation. Stiyl thought that Touma is just a helpless teenager, so he wanted to scare him away. But he hadn't expect Touma to fight back that well.


And secondly,

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Originally Posted by Slice of Life View Post
I'm already feeling stupid for pointing all that out because it's not that I'm expecting a brilliant script here - it's certainly not the genre for that. My initial reaction was forget it, it's a cartoony villain doing his cartoony villain thing, let's go on to the F/X. I was just surprised to see you declaring a bug a feature. You say "But a character isn't supposed to do that in episode two!" as if it shouldn't the author's concern in the first place not to bring characters into situations where they have reveal something vital too early.

The author already revealed all the vital info needed at this point of the story, asking for anymore is the definition of spoonfeeding.

Look back at exactly what he wanted

Quote:
Clear motivation. Dialogue that's less pointless than the one that we got instead. And a revelation about more sinister elements lurking out in the whole wide world.
Honestly, you have to be really spoiled to not see any of those in the episode.
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Old 2008-10-16, 18:45   Link #395
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Spoiled? What's so bad about wanting clear motivations? Or dialogue that, you know, actually allows the plot to progress instead of acting like a dog chasing its own tail?

If you go through all of the plots that I've found enjoyable (I'll cite The Dark Knight as a good, recent example), you'll notice that the characters get straight to the point as to what they're after. They don't need to reveal their entire backstory, but they reveal just enough so that we see what's going on in their heads and the logical grounds with which they use to justify their actions. Whether us, the viewer, or the other characters agree with their mindset is another matter, but a clear motivation is essential if we're to connect with the characters in a meaningful way.

This show feels like it's too afraid to address those issues directly, and to avoid having to be clear, it takes a roundabout approach to doing so by kicking clarity to the curb. That's not good writing. That's muddled writing.
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Old 2008-10-16, 19:10   Link #396
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lmao so much drama. I dont care for anything that has been argued in this thread, let me just say that if you dont like the story and the development, nobody is forcing you to continue watching it. I am enjoying the anime that actually has characters I really like I first saw the OP of it in some blog and gave it a try, very happy that I did it now I look forward to seeing the other characters

lol so many smilies.
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Old 2008-10-16, 19:25   Link #397
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Originally Posted by serenade_beta View Post
It's best not to care too much about that.. If the ink didn't fade so conveniently, Touma wouldn't have found a way to take down the Innocentius.


Seems official website updated with episode three (they should update the notice at the top...)...
Here's our guest for next week~
Spoiler for just a pic:
I think it might be her right arm...

anyways... we now know that Touma actually died and that the entire series is a huge "what if" just like Code Geass R2, which techically ended at episode 2.

Speaking of Code Geass, I can really hear bits of Sayoko,and even Peke dripping from Arai's take on Kuroko...
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Old 2008-10-16, 20:09   Link #398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nvenya View Post
Touma seems like an honorable sort of guy. He's got a sarcastic sense of humor which I like. I also like how he doesn't let his misfortune get him too down. Index is sweet and trusting and yet she's not a pushover. I got quite a bit out of their introduction to each other. I also like the teacher. She smokes, drinks, probably uses her childish appearance to manipulate people and I'm curious to know how her appearance affects her confidence. They might play with it or they might not.
Do like Touma so far in this series. A good guy with an ability that causes him a lot of trouble. Do wonder how cheap he buys his stuff with the rate he ends up getting them trashed. Hopefully that cellphone that got crushed in the fall wasn't too expensive . A good overall personality to be the lead in the series.

Didn't have a problem with the characters in the first couple episodes. At any rate am looking forward to episode 3 to see how the healing magic goes.
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Old 2008-10-16, 21:33   Link #399
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http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm4955580

The veranda person finally did it again.
Stiyls sings on the floor (kind of creepy, in a funny manner)

Notice: The visuals are slightly spoilerish for people who have not read 1st volume of novel or not following the manga.

⊂( ゚ヮ゚)⊃ Who's next? Kanzaki with Starry Heavens?
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Old 2008-10-16, 21:44   Link #400
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Originally Posted by serenade_beta View Post
Notice: The visuals are slightly spoilerish for people who have not read 1st volume of novel or not following the manga.
I was on the look out for them and I still didn't notice anything remotely spoilerish...
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