AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Macross

Notices

View Poll Results: Potential Pairing - Multiple Choice Option
Alto x VF 171 32 12.31%
Ozma x Bobby 13 5.00%
Ranka x Sheryl 42 16.15%
Sheryl x Alto 199 76.54%
Yasaburo x Alto 5 1.92%
Ranka x Ai-kun 38 14.62%
Alto x Klan 14 5.38%
Ranka x Alto 54 20.77%
Ranka x Brera 37 14.23%
Klan x Michael 101 38.85%
Ozma x Cathy 111 42.69%
Luca x Nanase 41 15.77%
Wilder x Monica 41 15.77%
Alto x VF25 37 14.23%
Yasaburo x Alto's father 10 3.85%
Alto x Brera 18 6.92%
Grace x Ranka 12 4.62%
Nanase x Ranka 21 8.08%
Sheryl x Klan 24 9.23%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 260. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2008-09-11, 22:23   Link #2221
Teletha
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Texas
That's what I'm saying. It's hard to tell sometimes. After dokun dokun dokun I don't believe anything.
Teletha is offline  
Old 2008-09-11, 22:57   Link #2222
Marina Ismail
<3 Sheryl Saotome
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
I dunno anymore... maybe it's because I've never watched any of the other Macross series (I hate love-triangles and I dunno why I've stayed for so long...) but I'm just not getting SxA vibes from the next ep =/.

No... I haven't given up on this pairing but... I think I'm emotionally tired lol.
Marina Ismail is offline  
Old 2008-09-11, 23:16   Link #2223
cheesie
Dame Cheesie
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seifall
no development for their feelings Episode 13 was the time we saw them gazing at each other and after that we saw a couple of episode when Alto blushed around her.
Even in episode 10 when he knew he would have to kiss her, he did react like a person who has such feelings towards another, not in a brother-sister way .
anything that Alto may have felt for her prior to that, whether it was puppy love of physical awareness, simply couldn't survive the future events that came
It isn't about selectively picking out one scene from everything, reading it and declare that an ending is based on that alone. It is about reading how the entire series is set up, connect all the dots together, and see what messages are they trying to portray.

Alto may have felt something for Ranka, judging from the way he grew aware of her as a woman and blushed around her, but it wasn't given enough time to develop. It flickered for the faintest bit, but then it died in the face of future events. There was potential, but the series let it die for a reason. Ranka has let Alto go for a reason.

Alto magically realizing his feelings for Ranka is unlikely on the grounds that the developments of the story is flowing elsewhere. The series has been showing us oh yes, it's smarter than it looks, with the way it's exploring themes of different loves and turmoils. It knows it's Macross Frontier, not Shoujo Frontier.

Last edited by cheesie; 2008-09-11 at 23:30.
cheesie is offline  
Old 2008-09-11, 23:21   Link #2224
TwilightHack
~ Madoka = Win ~
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuniiChan View Post
No... I haven't given up on this pairing but... I think I'm emotionally tired lol.
I haven't given up, but I'm tired of shipping at the moment as well.

It seems from Ep22 the most Fanatic Sheryl Shippers (FSS) and Rabid Ranka Shippers (RRS) have come out to play, Ep23 has just added even more fuel to the fire. Honestly, it's impossible to interact with either side without things blowing up!

Oh well, I consider myself an average Sheryl Shipper. So I'm leaving this to the big guns in the Shipping Wars.
__________________

in the shadows i lurk... but nevertheless there i am...
TwilightHack is offline  
Old 2008-09-11, 23:26   Link #2225
Wesley84
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Anyone else think it was a bit of a let down that Mikhail basically said "It's not you, it's me" in his final moments? That doesn't seem all that honest, since up til that point Klan's genetic defect and being a member of another speices was the real obstacle to them getting together. It's a real cope out if you ask me.
Wesley84 is offline  
Old 2008-09-12, 12:27   Link #2226
musouka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Further thoughts on the triangle

After allowing the latest episode to sink in, these are my thoughts as the triangle stands now.

This last episode was hard to watch. I think it strengthened the Sheryl/Alto ship, but it's sort of like the last few episodes of the original Macross where you feel like you're on an emotional roller coaster. Pretty soon, you don't really care if it crashes as long as it finally ends.

So, why do I think this episode strengthens Alto/Sheryl? Well, let's look at it from a narrative perspective.

For one, let's look at how this last episode has defined Ranka and Sheryl in their relationship to Alto. Ranka didn't really spend much time thinking about Alto this episode. Granted, that is slightly difficult considering the situation she's in, but were they setting up a romantic link between the two, this should have been the episode where their feelings were in sync, even though they're far away from one another. We should have had a quiet moment of Ranka longing for Alto's warmth despite herself, to go along with Alto's ruminations of the nature of his and Ranka's relationship.

On the contrary, this episode sets them up for further separation. The most important thing to me about Alto's talk with Klan concerning Ranka was a sense of sort of bittersweet wistfulness. As I said in the last thread, Ranka was playing the role of Hikaru. In this episode, it's Alto who finally steps into Hikaru's shoes (meaning he "grows up") and realizes that, in his immaturity, he feigned blindness to Ranka's feelings in order to continue a relationship that made himself feel good. Whether or not Ranka needed his protection isn't really the point, it's that Alto felt like he needed to protect someone, and he chose Ranka to project those feelings upon as an escape from his own emotions and duties.

Alto, allowing himself to acknowledge that he might have to kill Ranka, is also letting go of her as an image. Is that the right choice? I can't say, but it is a choice Alto made after looking at all the facts at his disposal, and looking at what he felt was the most important thing at the time. This is exactly the same thing Ozma and Ranka did. Their choices might turn out poorly too--perhaps the people SMS left behind will die a painful death at the hands of the Vajra, and this episode proved that just because Ranka wants peace doesn't mean it's going to come to her for the price of a simple song--but the point is that people have to make these choices. They have to do what they think is best instead of closing their eyes to the world and pretending everything will work out the way they want it to regardless.

Now, looking at Sheryl in this episode, there are a few things. The big points about Sheryl at this moment in time are her death and her relationship with Alto. This episode almost beats you to death with the idea that Sheryl's "dreams" are actually quite "small". While right now, Ranka might be wishing for peace with all her might, deep down, what Sheryl wants most is love. That is why an ending where she "dies a hero" doesn't work, and "lives and sings" doesn't work either. Alto is being set up as what would make Sheryl happier than anything else in the world. The tension comes from the fact that Alto isn't an object you can just "hand" over to Sheryl to make her content--there has to be genuine emotion on Alto's part as well.

You see, if Sheryl is the ultimate loser of the triangle, there is really no need to beat her up so hard. Most of the time, losers are allowed to retain some dignity, whereas right now, Macross F seems to be mostly interested in emotionally flagellating Sheryl to the point where it's painful to watch as a viewer. And, this can't really be compared to Minmay's subplot near the end of Macross in the slightest. Minmay was being punished because of her own inability to grow up, whereas all Sheryl's punishments are due to a fate beyond her control. Sheryl's role is more like Misa--who was not responsible for any of the suffering she went through (aside from choosing a wishy-washy guy in the first place. )

So basically, the anime is systematically closing off all other routes to Sheryl's happiness, except Alto. It doesn't make sense to have Sheryl go through all that emotional pain only to have Alto end up with Ranka after they've both mutually moved beyond one another, and, a little bit closer to Sheryl's own maturity.
musouka is offline  
Old 2008-09-12, 12:37   Link #2227
sekidousai
Ra-ou
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Inside the mysterious painting
I just want to post it here too, something that i have found along the way ^^.

Spoiler for Sayonara ^^:

Guess what song that is ^^. I guess this song was deliberately nonexistent recently.... to prevent hints maybe?... Slide of hand from Kawamori?... I just love how he gives feints to the fans.

Spoiler for ....:

Last edited by sekidousai; 2008-09-12 at 13:02.
sekidousai is offline  
Old 2008-09-12, 12:44   Link #2228
MaiHikari
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bay Area, CA
Age: 31
@musouka: excellent points

Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
On the contrary, this episode sets them up for further separation. The most important thing to me about Alto's talk with Klan concerning Ranka was a sense of sort of bittersweet wistfulness. As I said in the last thread, Ranka was playing the role of Hikaru. In this episode, it's Alto who finally steps into Hikaru's shoes (meaning he "grows up") and realizes that, in his immaturity, he feigned blindness to Ranka's feelings in order to continue a relationship that made himself feel good. Whether or not Ranka needed his protection isn't really the point, it's that Alto felt like he needed to protect someone, and he chose Ranka to project those feelings upon as an escape from his own emotions and duties.
You brought up an interesting point here. Back to the conversation between Alto and his brother, his brother asked him why did he really want to become a pilot? Was it because of an enemy? Something to protect? The answer, in my opinion, lies in Alto's mother. At the beginning, Alto was using Ranka and the vajra as an excuse to become a pilot, but he's just been running away from his past all this time. He couldn't get past Miyo-sama's death. That IMHO is what he means when he said he was running away all this time.

Edit: @sekidousai, the song was already used in Diamond Crevasse episode, to be a tribute to Mikhail's death and to convey Sheryl's feelings for Alto. Sheryl has many deathflags, and the song is just one of it.
MaiHikari is offline  
Old 2008-09-12, 12:50   Link #2229
Darial
Otaku in disguise
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Somewhere in Cyberspace
Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
So basically, the anime is systematically closing off all other routes to Sheryl's happiness, except Alto. It doesn't make sense to have Sheryl go through all that emotional pain only to have Alto end up with Ranka after they've both mutually moved beyond one another, and, a little bit closer to Sheryl's own maturity.
Very good point, Mus. This reminded me of a post I read on MW yesterday, so I took the liberty of cross-posting it here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by junior @ MacrossWorld Episode 23 thread

One brief scene in the episode got me thinking. During Alto's meal with Sheryl, there was a brief flashback to Sheryl's lonely orphan childhood. We saw her looking into a window high above her in which a couple was eating a nice meal at the dinner table. I get the feeling that when she saw that in her distant past, Sheryl decided that more than anything else, she wanted the two things that the scene to her would represent -

1.) A nice, warm, hot meal (and a good meal at a dinner table is its own reward), and
2.) Someone special to share it with

Over the years she's obviously had more than enough warm dinners, but I can all but guarantee that this is the first time that she's ever had a dinner with a "special someone". Back in episodes 5 and 6 she discussed her complete lack of friends. This episode pretty much hammered it home to me. She's been completely alone (Grace was an employee - albeit a pretended one - and therefore could not be considered a friend) for her entire remembered life. And now she's got Alto.

If SK takes Alto away from her, then SK will have a lot to answer for. He might as well kick a few puppies while he's at it...

What we learned that Sheryl could value back in episode 7 was her home - i.e. Galaxy. With no friends, Sheryl would logically value the one place where she felt somewhat grounded and secure, and that would be her home in Galaxy. Now Galaxy's lost and has been for quite some time. And she's found Alto, who is probably her first real friend. Taking Alto from her would be like stealing the crutch from a one-legged man.
I had a good laugh reading Junior's post, and I think it ties in very well with your points as well. Sheryl has simply been abused too much by the show not to be given some happiness at the end.

Unless of course:

Spoiler:
Darial is offline  
Old 2008-09-12, 12:55   Link #2230
glyph
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by sekidousai View Post
I just want to post it here too, something that i have found along the way ^^.

Spoiler for Sayonara ^^:

Guess what song that is ^^. I guess this song was deliberately nonexistent recently.... to prevent hints maybe?... Slide of hand from Kawamori?... I just love how he gives feints to the fans.

Spoiler for ....:
The full version has been around for quite a while. I don't think it has any literal meaning at this point, although it reflects Sheryl's mental state at the moment well.

And my wild guess is it could used as the theme music for the final fakeout of the LT, with the turnaround happening in the last verse.

Last edited by glyph; 2008-09-12 at 13:20.
glyph is offline  
Old 2008-09-12, 14:22   Link #2231
KiraYamatoFan
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Age: 31
@musouka: you made my day there. But I still have a few questions on the way the producers are making the two girls suffer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
Now, looking at Sheryl in this episode, there are a few things. The big points about Sheryl at this moment in time are her death and her relationship with Alto. This episode almost beats you to death with the idea that Sheryl's "dreams" are actually quite "small". While right now, Ranka might be wishing for peace with all her might, deep down, what Sheryl wants most is love. That is why an ending where she "dies a hero" doesn't work, and "lives and sings" doesn't work either. Alto is being set up as what would make Sheryl happier than anything else in the world. The tension comes from the fact that Alto isn't an object you can just "hand" over to Sheryl to make her content--there has to be genuine emotion on Alto's part as well.
And obviously, I hate when we are getting shoved down the throat with the idea that our favorite character's dreams are getting shattered like this and suffering a lot while the rival isn't shown suffering that much. It's the almost one-sided aspect of suffering which really p*sses me off so far: at least give a little more for Ranka to feel pain rather than teasing only Sheryl fans like Kawamori is doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
You see, if Sheryl is the ultimate loser of the triangle, there is really no need to beat her up so hard. Most of the time, losers are allowed to retain some dignity, whereas right now, Macross F seems to be mostly interested in emotionally flagellating Sheryl to the point where it's painful to watch as a viewer. And, this can't really be compared to Minmay's subplot near the end of Macross in the slightest. Minmay was being punished because of her own inability to grow up, whereas all Sheryl's punishments are due to a fate beyond her control. Sheryl's role is more like Misa--who was not responsible for any of the suffering she went through (aside from choosing a wishy-washy guy in the first place. )
I was asking the question earlier today and nobody answered me yet. Why are the creators are exclusively flagellating Sheryl the way it is currently done? Is it because she already is acting as a woman while Ranka is still a teenager, meaning Ranka wouldn't able to climb herself out of hell (in the producers' eyes) if she was thrown into half of the problems Sheryl is having? IMO, it would be a lame excuse if they pick on Sheryl because she's the most mature of all. And pushing Sheryl that far into pain is adding insult to injury.

To be truly honnest, I was expecting so far to see Ranka's "punishement" to be as harsh and well-deserved as what I saw in the original series and in DYRL. I still hope so.
KiraYamatoFan is offline  
Old 2008-09-12, 16:51   Link #2232
Tak
☭ автомат Калашникова ☭
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Neu Herzogtum Zeon
I am not even so sure if Sheryl ever had a proper meal. She basically lacks table manners (maybe she was happy? I dunno), does not know how to use chopstick, and probably never consumed alcohol. Then I saw her in a flashback, and it felt quite painful.

Finally, in her short lifespan she had one day to enjoy a proper fucking meal, but her lights are going out as we speak. I found 23 to be particularly hard to watch, and then I thought of Ranka. Whether she loses the triangle or not is of secondary importance, the fact is, even if she end up not being with anyone, she at least has a load of people ready to pamper her to no apparent end. But Sheryl? What does she get? She basically got nothing left, not even her dignity. How fucked up is that?

I begin to wonder if Shouji Kawamori's real name is Shouji Kim.

- Tak
__________________
- Flight to Brazil? $1,500
- FIFA Stadium Ticket? $500
- Witnessing Coach Joachim Lw crack a smile at the World-Cup Final? PRICELESS


There are some things money can't buy. For everything else, there is Master Card.


"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Tak is offline  
Old 2008-09-12, 16:53   Link #2233
Wesley84
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Sheryl deserves everything that's happened to her.
Wesley84 is offline  
Old 2008-09-12, 16:54   Link #2234
Paul Hausser
Colonel General
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
Sheryl deserves everything that's happened to her.
Indeed? And you base this obvious troll post on what exactly?
Paul Hausser is offline  
Old 2008-09-12, 16:55   Link #2235
Tak
☭ автомат Калашникова ☭
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Neu Herzogtum Zeon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Hausser View Post
Indeed? And you base this obvious troll post on what exactly?
Just don't encourage him. A lot of us have him on ignore for a good reason.

- Tak
__________________
- Flight to Brazil? $1,500
- FIFA Stadium Ticket? $500
- Witnessing Coach Joachim Lw crack a smile at the World-Cup Final? PRICELESS


There are some things money can't buy. For everything else, there is Master Card.


"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Tak is offline  
Old 2008-09-12, 16:56   Link #2236
musouka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
@KiraYamatoFan:
The reason the writers are hurting Sheryl so much is because that will make it all the sweeter when she finally achieves happiness. (Note, that her actual end might still be bittersweet, but even if she dies, she'll die knowing that Alto loved her) I don't think it's really because they're punishing her for being strong as it's just naturally more heart wrenching to see a character that was so self assured and confident get to this state.

It's also a way to bring things to light about her character that we otherwise wouldn't see. To bring Sheryl down to earth makes her all the more human and understandable. As fun as it was seeing a Sheryl that smiled and teased, we also needed to see under her exterior to know her true dreams and wishes.
musouka is offline  
Old 2008-09-12, 17:03   Link #2237
magnuskn
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Age: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
@KiraYamatoFan:
The reason the writers are hurting Sheryl so much is because that will make it all the sweeter when she finally achieves happiness. (Note, that her actual end might still be bittersweet, but even if she dies, she'll die knowing that Alto loved her) I don't think it's really because they're punishing her for being strong as it's just naturally more heart wrenching to see a character that was so self assured and confident get to this state.

It's also a way to bring things to light about her character that we otherwise wouldn't see. To bring Sheryl down to earth makes her all the more human and understandable. As fun as it was seeing a Sheryl that smiled and teased, we also needed to see under her exterior to know her true dreams and wishes.
Yeah, but has it to hurt so much? My chest still constricts everytime her flashback during the dinner scene comes up.
__________________
magnuskn is offline  
Old 2008-09-12, 17:04   Link #2238
Cadorna
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 32
Send a message via MSN to Cadorna
oh came on,the only time Ranka cried, was because alto was embracing sheryl. She only suffer from love a little, something normal. But sheryl has a terminal disease and alto broke her heart , that ' s fuc****g unfair
__________________
Cadorna is offline  
Old 2008-09-12, 17:07   Link #2239
Wesley84
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Hausser View Post
Indeed? And you base this obvious troll post on what exactly?
Because she is where she's at based on the decisions she's made. If she has no one besides Alto, she has only herself to blame for not allowing anyone else to get close to her. If all she has is her singing, it's her fault for not taking a real interest in anything besides it (piloting doesn't count because that's just as stupid as singing as far as Macross is concerned).

She was even alone as an orphaned brat in the slums, and that is just abnormal as sewage finds it's own level.

She's the one always talking about crap like making her own fate. Well, if she's bitter or upset about things, she has no one to blame but herself.
Wesley84 is offline  
Old 2008-09-12, 17:12   Link #2240
KiraYamatoFan
Banned
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Montreal, QC, Canada
Age: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka View Post
@KiraYamatoFan:
The reason the writers are hurting Sheryl so much is because that will make it all the sweeter when she finally achieves happiness. (Note, that her actual end might still be bittersweet, but even if she dies, she'll die knowing that Alto loved her) I don't think it's really because they're punishing her for being strong as it's just naturally more heart wrenching to see a character that was so self assured and confident get to this state.

It's also a way to bring things to light about her character that we otherwise wouldn't see. To bring Sheryl down to earth makes her all the more human and understandable. As fun as it was seeing a Sheryl that smiled and teased, we also needed to see under her exterior to know her true dreams and wishes.
Still, that doesn't tell me why no one ever dared to throw Ranka into half of the problems Sheryl is experiencing. As I said, the amount of suffering given to Sheryl is almost one-sided compared to anything Ranka suffered.

Give at least something less one-sided when unleashing hell on characters, is it too much? Besides, the Sheryl we all cheer and (for some) pay to see in the series is the self-assured, confident and almost cocky one we discovered first, NOT the totally diminished one we are currently watching.
KiraYamatoFan is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
romance

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:32.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.