AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2008-06-09, 23:38   Link #81
teachopvutru
Urusai~Urusai~Urusai~
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Location
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
I'm not a linguaphile. I took Spanish in high school and can barely understand it, and I took Japanese for three years and can do daily conversations with it. I like to think that my English is near-perfect. I'm American. In other parts of the world people seem to know at least two languages very well, and occasionally you meet people who know even more. I don't want to say that it's a regular thing because I don't really know that, but it certainly seems like Americans are increasingly becoming monolingual. Worse, they can barely master the language that they do have. The implications for a society that cannot express itself and communicate properly are a bit frightening.
I kinda wonder if the people here feel somewhat discouraged. I just have that idea when I overheard some people in my class saying how they used to get high grade during in elementary school, and as of that moment, they also considered themselves stupid. Thinking back when I came to the U.S. at the end of elementary school year, then moving on to middle school and high school years, there certainly are some differences in the treatment and the subjects' difficulty. Certainly, some people would feel left behind in such situation and discouraged from learning.

The whole change in "teacher-guiding-your-hand" didn't really affect me since I came from a country where the teachers (even elementary teachers) would not hesitate to call you stupid or whack you with a stick. One thing that it affected, though, is my willingness to work. Considering how easy elementary and middle schools were, I just kept getting lazier--way too lazy for the courses of high school and in the sense of not wanting to do homework at all. I think that same thing also affects a whole bunch of people.

Furthermore, don't underestimate the foreign schools and the ESL level classes, but they actually teach more grammar crunching. Now that I'm in a normal English class this year, I find it just teaches me more about some stories that some ancient, classical, Renaissance, Elisabethian, or "et" cetera guys wrote, in addition to some literary devices and terms, rather than being able to learn some useful grammars much (although I did learn some more new grammars). It took be several years--four years already--to up my grammar to an "okay" level, so I consider it something that students have to keep repeating to get it stuck to their head. They may have already learned grammars back in elementary school and middle school, but it doesn't help considering the difficulty on those levels and how forgetful we tend to be...

So I'm blaming the school, basically. Don't bash me, though, if I'm ignorant about the school system here.

I also do think that the Internet speak starts to go on because some feels that it's "necessary" to do them once they are on the Internet. Back then, I thought that it was pretty cool, and started to use them for a while--only on the Internet, of course--until I decided to stop somewhere along the line (although I couldn't really use them very well anyway). Plus, when you are in a pack of people who do the same thing, it starts to become something natural to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomRay View Post
Here something that just appeared in my mind. Imagine going in a bookstore and you get your hands on a grammar book whit the title:

" 4dV4NcED EnGr1sH Gr4Mm4r B00kZor$ " ( " Advanced English Grammar Book )
I suggest putting a comma in the middle to create a more "advancely grammatical" title.
__________________

"FOUND YOU!" ~Taiga
teachopvutru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-09, 23:48   Link #82
scwizard
Starcraft Wizard
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Age: 25
The problem is people who type in stereotypically insertinsulthere fashions are likely to be insertinsulthere. So its an obstacle to overcome that stereotype, and you should go about tackling that obstacle by making good quality posts.

I'm sorry that some not very nice people have made this so, but this is the way things are.
scwizard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-10, 00:00   Link #83
Reckoner
Bittersweet Distractor
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irenicus View Post
It makes it hard to read.

...which is all that counts anyway :/

Oh, and what makes James Joyce special compared to the average writer is the thought behind his writings.

Just a gentle nudge; don't mind me!
So I wrote the following...

The man ran to the room. The man decided not to go in this room, his coin was probably not there. The man ran to the football stadium, but his lost coin wasn't there either. The man decided to go back home, but after a couple minutes he changed his mind and ran back to the room and found his coin.

Would that actually be harder to understand since I used "ran" several times? Maybe I just can't that see that.

Well you are certainly correct about James Joyce, but you got my point .

I don't mind the nudge
Reckoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-10, 00:20   Link #84
PhantomRay
~Shoop~Da~Whoop~
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiachopvutru View Post
So I'm blaming the school, basically. Don't bash me, though, if I'm ignorant about the school system here.

I also do think that the Internet speak starts to go on because some feels that it's "necessary" to do them once they are on the Internet. Back then, I thought that it was pretty cool, and started to use them for a while--only on the Internet, of course--until I decided to stop somewhere along the line (although I couldn't really use them very well anyway). Plus, when you are in a pack of people who do the same thing, it starts to become something natural to do.
Same here,

It can be a problem sometimes whit typing, not only in English, but other languages as well.

In highschool we used to communicate through Yahoo! Messenger, MSN, MySpace and other. My schoolmates did their homework using internet, we generaly talked properly at first. But by time passing, we start burrowing the internet slang. All it's alright at first, untill we transfer the internet language at school, expecially when having an exam.

But it starts to get worse, cause sometimes the teachers begin to have the same habbit as well, which can start a ruckus among the school concerning the corectitude in teaching and examining.
PhantomRay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-10, 00:48   Link #85
teachopvutru
Urusai~Urusai~Urusai~
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Location
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
So I wrote the following...

The man ran to the room. The man decided not to go in this room, his coin was probably not there. The man ran to the football stadium, but his lost coin wasn't there either. The man decided to go back home, but after a couple minutes he changed his mind and ran back to the room and found his coin.

Would that actually be harder to understand since I used "ran" several times? Maybe I just can't that see that.

Well you are certainly correct about James Joyce, but you got my point .

I don't mind the nudge
I think that the reason why reusing a single verb is not recommended is to make it more interesting to read. I'm not sure if reusing the same verb makes it harder to understand, but using different verbs according to different situations might clarify the meaning of your sentence more clearly. I mean, if the man were to rush to the football stadium, and stated as so, I think I would have a better idea of what he were doing at that time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomRay View Post
Same here,

It can be a problem sometimes whit typing, not only in English, but other languages as well.

In highschool we used to communicate through Yahoo! Messenger, MSN, MySpace and other. My schoolmates did their homework using internet, we generaly talked properly at first. But by time passing, we start burrowing the internet slang. All it's alright at first, untill we transfer the internet language at school, expecially when having an exam.

But it starts to get worse, cause sometimes the teachers begin to have the same habbit as well, which can start a ruckus among the school concerning the corectitude in teaching and examining.
lol... That's so awesome, especially when the teachers are affected...

If it was my English teacher, there would probably be a whole bunch of "Word Choice" marks on your paper.

For your information, "word choice" is what my English teacher tends to say, and it has became a playful term that my friends and I like to pass around.
__________________

"FOUND YOU!" ~Taiga
teachopvutru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-10, 00:54   Link #86
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 26
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
Quote:
The man ran to the room. The man decided not to go in this room, his coin was probably not there. The man ran to the football stadium, but his lost coin wasn't there either. The man decided to go back home, but after a couple minutes he changed his mind and ran back to the room and found his coin.
It's unnatural. It denotes lack of imagination and skill with words. No one would talk like that, and even less write like that.
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.
WanderingKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-10, 01:03   Link #87
Spectacular_Insanity
Ha ha ha ha ha...
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Right behind you.
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
It's unnatural. It denotes lack of imagination and skill with words. No one would talk like that, and even less write like that.
It's also full of comma splices. I'm pretty anal about proper grammar and punctuation, although naturally I make mistakes, as well. Some small spelling errors and run on sentences are okay, but if it starts to get in the way of proper communication, then there's a problem.

In my opinion, however, people should try to watch their spelling/etc anyway, because posts filled with errors (of various sorts) tend to denote either a lack of intelligence or a lack of caring. I can understand if English is not your first language, but since we're using computers with auto-correction programs, that shouldn't be an excuse, either.
__________________
Spectacular_Insanity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-10, 01:07   Link #88
Reckoner
Bittersweet Distractor
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
It's unnatural. It denotes lack of imagination and skill with words. No one would talk like that, and even less write like that.
But do we not talk and write like that because we are taught not to do so? It may appear unnatural as we never do it, but is it not very straightforward? Let me just make it clear that I am only referring to daily speech and writings (Such as that in a forum or internet chat room).

Yes, when you write a book or essay for people to read you want others to be kept interested with how you articulate sentences as reading the same words over and over again gets boring. My point is why do we look down on those that choose not to write so flowery, when it comes to an internet post such as this? Ideas are first born in the mind, if people can express those ideas clearly, what is wrong with that? I myself don't even want to put the effort to jot down this post in such a manner, but for people such as you to even consider my thoughts seriously, it is almost like a requirement.
Reckoner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-10, 01:10   Link #89
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 26
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
Quote:
But do we not talk and write like that because we are taught not to do so? It may appear unnatural as we never do it, but is it not very straightforward? Let me just make it clear that I am only referring to daily speech and writings (Such as that in a forum or internet chat room).
Pronouns were born for a reason. You could also eliminate all possessive pronouns from that phrase ("his coin" --> "the man's coin"), but you automatically used them due to an unconscious reason--it's easier, shorter and both speakers know what they're talking about.

Of course, they can be misused, but keep in mind that if they weren't useful, pronouns wouldn't have even been born.

(In Spanish, where full subject elision is encouraged, it's even more noticeable. Since you know Spanish, try translating that phrase and see how awkward it reads).
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.

Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2008-06-10 at 01:37.
WanderingKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-10, 01:19   Link #90
sa547
Senior Member
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Philippines
Age: 38
My two cents on the matter:

In the past five years since cellphone text messaging became popular in my country, a huge percentage of anyone wound up using "TXTspeak" grammar anywhere (Friendster, Multiply, most forums, chatrooms, etc.) to the point of incoherence. At the same time period the quality of education seemed to have dropped, with the glaring lack of support for public libraries and language teachers.

True, I also use "txtspeak" but that form should be best left to the cellphone and I intend not to carry it over to my daily Internet usage.

They think it's super-cool cutting down sentences into shortcuts, or playing with uppercase and lowercase letters, or using very ornate font styles other than necessary, or imitating anything in the style of 4chan, so that they strut around their forum to proclaim they're leet and they're promoting their own brand of coolness... when, in my opinion, I hate trying to decipher the retarded crap they're posting.

It's like a devolution of language coherence for one generation, so it's going to be my stand to go against this flow of devolution by typing this way.
__________________
sa547 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-10, 01:25   Link #91
radioIzzy
stuck in a harem genre
*Artist
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Hmmm...
I think there is a level between keyboard retardism and just common mistakes.

I can't imagine why today's teenagers would have problems with grammar, being that half the time doing homework is on the computer, hence or it should make you retain proper grammar skills.

The only pet peeve I have with peope is when they excessively use "shortcut" words, it just doens't feel right, and it makes the person seem as though they are about 10 years of age.

"Y don't u feel like being rly kewl?"

It's an exageration, but whatever. Spelling mistakes, everyone makes spelling mistakes; especially if your on the keyboard; typing at light speed and whatnot.

It's rare for people to seriously type 1337 all the time, like "h3y"
Only time I've ever seen 1337 is when people are making fun of nerds or trying to be funny.

Meh... I never criticize anyways.
It's only irritating when a person creates a thread looking for help like, "Where can I find these kinds of animes..."

Then when you look to read the rest of the thread, it's like mumble english that goes like this;

"Ok, I ams looking what for kewl fighting like anime/manga but I don't want no kilinlg or big lots blood because I don't liking lost of bolod. I awlays watns smeo other type too..."

ㅡ.ㅡ;;;;;
radioIzzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-10, 01:30   Link #92
Spectacular_Insanity
Ha ha ha ha ha...
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Right behind you.
Age: 26
@soulassassin547: That's interesting, and sadly true. I always knew it as "1337speak", though, which shows how nerdy I really am.

The de-evolution of the language is, as you said, from the shortcuts people take to save space on their texts, and it has made its way to the internet, quite easily really. I think it's largely in part due to gaming, where PC gamers have to type for communication. I do understand that "u" is easier to type than "you", but outside of gaming and texting (where speed is of the essence), you might as well spell out the whole word.
__________________
Spectacular_Insanity is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-10, 01:38   Link #93
KholdStare
ISML Technical Staff
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Age: 26
Send a message via AIM to KholdStare Send a message via MSN to KholdStare
I think the difference is leetspeak is purposely encrypting what you mean, and txtspeak is shortening what you mean.

Txtspeak: sup i no u luv me 2.
leetspeak: \/\/|-|4T'5 |_|P!!! 1 |<|\|()\/\/ Y()|_| |_()\/3 |\/|3 T()().
KholdStare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-10, 01:38   Link #94
Claies
Good-Natured Asshole.
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by kakashi-san View Post
Why does it sadden you? Because you think they are using it as an unnecessary excuse or because native English speakers actually use worse English then non-natives?
Obviously the latter. I feel that daily, trust me. >_>;;

However, I also know a few more excuses. For one, sometimes the people who write badly online also suck at typing. They can't justify spending that amount of time to make a post pretty by capitalizing and punctuating everything when they, like everyone, have places to go and other people to talk to. If you recall back when you couldn't type, you'll realize how long it actually takes them to type my post right here.

This also applies to IMing. IMing is relatively fast-paced, and given the way we youngsters now multitask, we'd like to get from one typing space to another as quickly as possible, because time is finite and things need to be said. I myself lower my own writing expectations when IMing, and sometimes people would just carry that level of writing over to posts too.

It all boils down to people being lazy. I actually half-expect the most coherent people here to be perfectionists (that includes me), and we are the kind who would never go down to the level of "you know what I mean". Relatively, we'd consider txtspeakers to be terribly lazy, and we'd be right - yes, they don't see the effort to make their posts look like mine here as justified. They also probably don't consider their views terribly important (hence the reduced quality in IM messages and Facebook - they're pretty casual), because if they do they'd step up the effort to make themselves look better.

Which brings back full circle: If a post looks terribly written, its content probably isn't important enough. I'd let it go unless I have another reason to read it.
Claies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-10, 01:54   Link #95
sa547
Senior Member
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Philippines
Age: 38
A strange thought struck me: the way I type is like the way I dress up for work or casual Fridays.

So I'll have some ground rules to lay out for myself when posting or replying something:

* In a forum or a blog, when I reply, I prefer to be fully coherent and typing it in clear and plain English.
* With a cellphone, I may use txtspeak but if I really need to be understood, then I use full words.
* In a chatroom, since I tend to type very fast, I'll settle on "normal" English.
__________________
sa547 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-10, 02:05   Link #96
teachopvutru
Urusai~Urusai~Urusai~
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Location
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
I think the difference is leetspeak is purposely encrypting what you mean, and txtspeak is shortening what you mean.

Txtspeak: sup i no u luv me 2.
leetspeak: \/\/|-|4T'5 |_|P!!! 1 |<|\|()\/\/ Y()|_| |_()\/3 |\/|3 T()().
Did you use an online translator or did you type that leetspeak out yourself? There's like a pattern right there.

I would imagine that someone who does leetspeak would use variations to haunt you even more.
__________________

"FOUND YOU!" ~Taiga
teachopvutru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-10, 02:11   Link #97
Papaya
Sup
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Atlanta
Age: 27
Send a message via AIM to Papaya Send a message via MSN to Papaya
I personally ignore posts that slaughter English. If you choose to type poorly, that's your thing, but you should be willing to accept the consequences of doing so, the same way you choose to accept the consequences if you decide to get tattoos in real life.

Sorry, but the internet, as crazy as it is, is not your personal playground. You make posts to convey yourself, and if the way you choose to do so gets in the way of readers, then it's no one's fault but your own!

And, I know it's been said to death here, but indeed, non-native speakers are quickly overtaking native speakers online.
Papaya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-10, 10:28   Link #98
Miko Miko
Imouto-Chan♥
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: England
Age: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
leetspeak: \/\/|-|4T'5 |_|P!!! 1 |<|\|()\/\/ Y()|_| |_()\/3 |\/|3 T()().
Thats so hard to read!
I hate it when people criticize the way I type, like if i make a mistake and they have a go at you.
__________________

Miko Miko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-10, 16:18   Link #99
Daughter!
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Does it really take that much effort to press the 'shift' and 'period' buttons?

I mean, when someone's message looks like this:

heyy lets go 2 da park aftaaa

It makes me think they're an idiot. I know smart people who type like that and they seem like morons just because of it.
Daughter! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-06-10, 17:50   Link #100
Faeyice
it's animal, unbelievable
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: U.S.A
I personally prefer when people use correct grammar, punctuation, spelling, etc. However, I can't stand excessive chat speak and typos. Dropping capitalization and punctuation is fine, but there comes a point where it goes to far. Excessive chat speak and typos makes the typist look rather idiotic as well. That's why you use spellcheck and word if you're unsure about your spelling or grammar.
__________________
Faeyice is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:50.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.