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Old 2008-10-21, 09:50   Link #161
DragoonKain3
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@Matrim
The anime hasn't given evidence to the contrary. If one can provide the time range in which the quote was made, be it BSS or HG-F version? I'd gladly concede the point if one provides it, but my impression of Jean is that he is a pretty earnest guy by his actions and words.

Maybe that's the problem here, where people are used to how Jean is depicted in the manga/SP when he is depicted slightly different here?
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Old 2008-10-21, 10:18   Link #162
Matrim
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Quote:
The point of his post wasn't what sort of person Jean was, but how the anime portrayed the 3 finalists and what it said about Chiaki's personality and ultimately, victory.
The point of my post is that in the manga Jean's portrayal is not merely different but exactly the opposite.

Anyway, if we are talking anime-only, I for one never really got the impression that Jean does not enjoy music, so DragoonKain3's explanation why Chiaki won doesn't really work for me. And even if it did, I fail to see the point of turning things completely around in regards to Jean's character when in the manga the message that Chiaki should enjoy the music more is still there, albeit as just one of the reasons why he won.
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Old 2008-10-21, 10:20   Link #163
Ascaloth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
Translation...
Jean: I heard your perfomance. You don't need to worry.
I dunno about you, but there's more weight for Jean commenting about Chiaki's piece and how he performed it, rather than Chiaki's skill in comparison to his. Besides, why would Chiaki worry about his skill being less than Jean's? Right now, Chiaki's biggest worry is if his perfomance is good enough to advance to the next round, and as such, it makes much more sense for Jean to mean not to worry much about advancing.
If Chiaki wasn't worrying that he wasn't as good as Jean, why would he have the crisis of confidence that caused him to bomb Till in the first place? When he was listening to Jean's piece, he commented "damned, it's the same piece, he's really good". Did you not notice that line, or did you choose not to notice it?

Granted, there was another scene in the manga which made it more obvious that Chiaki's bombing of Till was due to his being affected by Jean, but unfortunately, that is yet another one of the butcher jobs....

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Interpretation. All Chiaki ever said after that event was...
Chiaki: He must be a good guy.
Of which, what was Jean being a good guy of? That he was just giving him 'consolation'? Or perhaps maybe because he stopped Yuuko from essentially kicking a man when he was down and he himself did not stoop to that level? The former has evidence on shaky ground in the anime, but the latter is exactly what he did during the restaurant scene.
Tch, I watched the episode again. Yet another butcher job; Chiaki did wonder whether Jean was "consoling" him in the manga. I must have somehow thought that it did happen in the episode. No wonder you saw it that way; fair enough, I'll grant you that interpretation.

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By comparing it how he did against Jean in the prelims. First and second prelims, it was depicted he was toe-to-toe with Jean, when he was being himself. It happened twice, so it's no fluke and thus sets precedent that he is Jean's equal. So if he had a handicap, like say, by not being himself in that he's trying too hard? Of course he would lose, and that's what happened in the third prelims. But let's say Chiaki kicked it up a notch, by finally letting himself go and enjoy the music? Wouldn't it follow then that he's the favourite to win?

Being familiar with the piece that he was doing, on top of it having a special place in his heart nailed the coffin right then and there. They didn't show how he beat Jean, because really, at that point it's inevitable that Chaiki won.

Of course, it's of the slimmest of margins at worst, since Chiaki did say he didn't felt like he won, nor did Jean felt like he lost. Both did their best, but it just so happened that Chiaki edged out his competition.

Lesson of the story? Determination, hard work, and talent are important, but in the end it's all about enjoying whatever it is you do. There's a reason why Katagiri is also put in there by showing Chiaki the error of his ways. It's just too bad Katagiri doesn't have the genius the other two finalists has, as evidenced by him failing to enter the finals 3 times in a row already.

The way I see it is this...
Jean - Determination, hard work, talent
Katagiri - Determination, hard work, enjoying the music
Chiaki - combines the best of both worlds... Determination, hard work, talent, enjoys the music
That's only one side of the story. How do you know for sure that Jean didn't kick it up a notch as well? How do you know for sure that Chiaki kicking it up a notch was enough to best Jean, even when the latter isn't having his best day?

There was a very important explanation scene that also got butchered. With that cut out, any resulting attempt to fill the hole is merely Fanwank.

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And it's important to contrast it with Jean because? The only character who we would learn something new from this development would be Jean, and he's only a minor character.

By depicting Jean as as a genius and also as a hardworker (by him saying he did not feel he lost, it gives evidence that he has done everything in preparation to win), the anime on the otherhand emphasizes how critical it is to enjoy the music when all else is equal. Which to be frank is much more powerful to me.
Jean saying he did not feel he lost is evidence that he did everything he could to prepare, how? It's just as likely that he meant that he did not try hard enough this time around, and could have beat Chiaki at the top of his game. This is merely personal interpretation, and Fanwank.

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I'm just glad my standards aren't set higher by reading the original work, or another adapatation before hand. Reason why I'm not touching even the SP till after the anime has finished, in order to see if the anime by itself can stand alone. And in that regard, it's doing a nice job.
As long as you're covering the plot holes with your own Fanwanking? Noted.

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And I've mentioned that the only point that was omitted wasn't really necessary, and by omitting it gave rise to a better theme. At least better IMO, but that doesn't change the fact that whatever was omitted wasn't really that integral to the story.
If you don't even have a clue as to what exactly was omitted from the story, how can you possibly claim that omitting it gave rise to a better theme? You are just trying to justify your preferences with personal opinion at this point.

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I certainly didn't feel that way, nor did many other posters here who hasn't seen the original or the SP yet. Whatever 'plot holes' you claim exists isn't really there at all, since everything can be explained within the context of the anime series. So I'm going to think it's just you.
Oh, you're trying to tell me that plot holes don't count if they can be covered by Fanwank? Noted.
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Old 2008-10-21, 10:30   Link #164
DragoonKain3
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Jean does probably enjoy music to a degree, but not to the level Katagiri and later on Chiaki did. After all, it was only after hearing Katagiri's piece did Chiaki mention that he should've enjoyed the music from the bottom of his heart like Katagiri did, and nary a word of it during Jean's piece. This is further evidenced by the reaction of Nodame (who we can agree is the living epitome of enjoying the music), of which was only awe in Jean's piece while she screamed out in delight during Katagiri's.

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And even if it did, I fail to see the point of turning things completely around in regards to Jean's character when in the manga the message that Chiaki should enjoy the music more is still there, albeit as just one of the reasons why he won.
And what's so wrong to focus emphasis especially on this message? To focus so much that it actually changes the message that 'enjoying music is necessary to be good', to 'enjoying music is critical when all else is equal'? It's really not so different from having hard work be what I assume to be the critical piece that separated Jean and Chiaki in the manga.
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Old 2008-10-21, 11:04   Link #165
Matrim
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Quote:
And what's so wrong to focus emphasis especially on this message? To focus so much that it actually changes the message that 'enjoying music is necessary to be good', to 'enjoying music is critical when all else is equal'?
Well, for one thing, as you said we already have Nodame epitomising this message and this has been clearly shown in the anime time and again, there is not much need of repeating it at the cost of not showing what was actually the most important message of the arc? This "enjoying the music" thing in the manga is there, I believe, mainly as a way to alleviate the nervousness problem which plagued Chiaki and had presumably plagued Katagiri in the past too - before he came up with the jumping rountine.
It was there also to further the bond between Chiaki and Nodame, in the manga she gave him further advice too (which contrasted superbly with Yuuko who helped Jean believe his own hype) and Chiaki's win is not at all just "oh, well, I will enjoy my music".

Ascaloth, no need to be so aggresive just because someone disagrees with you,
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Old 2008-10-21, 12:13   Link #166
Proto
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What a disillusion of an episode. I never expected to be saying this when I'm always the one defending any series when everyone else is attacking it but I cannot feel other way. Half of the charm of Nodame Cantabile was the focus on classical music, the concertos, the reactions of the public to the performance, the subtilities they put during the playing to emphasize the performer's emotions. The music is not a background, it WAS the FOREGROUND during the direction concerto. Too rushed, way, way too rushed. This being one of the parts that I looked the most at seeing animated, being an amateur piano performer myself and a classical music lover and I cannot feel but express my utter disappointment in the direction the series has taken. If this is how it is going to continue I do not know if I can stomach a further 9 episodes.

Not to mention that they also skimmed over a lot of character development like Ascaloth has correctly pointed out, which just made the whole episode more deplorable. I'm in despair
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Old 2008-10-21, 12:19   Link #167
DragoonKain3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth
If Chiaki wasn't worrying that he wasn't as good as Jean, why would he have the crisis of confidence that caused him to bomb Till in the first place?
What? Since when did Chiaki lost confidence? Is this yet another impression that's tainted by manga/SP roots? Because the impression I had in the reason he lost because he was just trying too hard and thus not enjoying the music. The way Chiaki looked when conducting on top of his more 'edgier' and sharper tongue is not what is expected of a panicked person, but rather is charactersitic of someone overdoing what he's supposed to be doing. Which has precedent by the way, when he overdid things with the second string orchestra back in season 1.

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When he was listening to Jean's piece, he commented "damned, it's the same piece, he's really good". Did you not notice that line, or did you choose not to notice it?
And that equates to Chiaki figuratively shitting in his pants how? If anything, his face shown there around 10:24 is not a person who's panicking at how good his opposition is, but rather just acknowledging how good his opponent was. He's nowhere near frenzied looking nor sounding to justify the former during his performance, that's for sure.

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That's only one side of the story. How do you know for sure that Jean didn't kick it up a notch as well? How do you know for sure that Chiaki kicking it up a notch was enough to best Jean, even when the latter isn't having his best day?
Because Jean said he did not felt like he lost? Thus implying he did everything in his current power and personality to win the tourney? More on this later.

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With that cut out, any resulting attempt to fill the hole is merely Fanwank.
Wow... just wow. I'm accused of fanwanking a series I feel Kasai should've been given the job for (Maybe I should do a complete 180 and start bashing Nodame Cantabile right now, as that might garner better responses ). Not only that, just because a certain scene is cut out means that everything else is Fanwank, when everything makes sense and follows a natural logical progression within the context of the episode? I guess for some people everything needs to be explicitly stated and shown otherwise it's just 'fanwank'.

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Jean saying he did not feel he lost is evidence that he did everything he could to prepare, how? It's just as likely that he meant that he did not try hard enough this time around, and could have beat Chiaki at the top of his game.
And that's where you and I differ. You are familiar with the other Jean, while all the anime has ever shown that Jean is a gentleman. You seem to have a negative opinion of Jean, while the anime has shown nothing but positives.

On one hand, we can have Jean be a jackass and unsportsman by meaning that the reason why he didn't felt like he lost was because he didn't do his best, in that he could've beat Chiaki if he tried a little harder. On the other, we can have Jean being the gentleman and sportsman he is by meaning that the reason why he didn't felt like he lost was because he tried his best, preparation and all, and has no regrets at all with his effort. And judging by Jean's depiction in the anime and anime only, the latter is much likelier considering he was almost perfect to a degree.

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If you don't even have a clue as to what exactly was omitted from the story, how can you possibly claim that omitting it gave rise to a better theme? You are just trying to justify your preferences with personal opinion at this point.
Major facepalm. It was you yourself that told me that they omitted the theme of Chiaki's hardwork vs Jean's lack thereof, of which says nothing extraordinary about Chiaki. Emphasizing that Chiaki has to fully embracing the music, of which only happened once last season IIRC, on the otherhand progresses Chiaki to become a better conductor. You tell me which is 'better.'
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Old 2008-10-21, 13:11   Link #168
Ascaloth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
What? Since when did Chiaki lost confidence? Is this yet another impression that's tainted by manga/SP roots? Because the impression I had in the reason he lost because he was just trying too hard and thus not enjoying the music. The way Chiaki looked when conducting on top of his more 'edgier' and sharper tongue is not what is expected of a panicked person, but rather is charactersitic of someone overdoing what he's supposed to be doing. Which has precedent by the way, when he overdid things with the second string orchestra back in season 1.
Tainted? The material in the manga is the original source, and you're claiming that I've somehow 'tainted' my impression of the anime by being familiar with the source material which it made a butcher job of adapting? The absurdity of this is such that I have no idea whether to laugh or cry.

Let me try this again. Why would Chiaki utter the "shit, he's good" line if it is not an indication of the fact that he is suffering a crisis of confidence that led to his overdoing things? Please do not dodge those of my points which are inconvenient to you, because I will keep calling you on it until you address it convincingly.

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And that equates to Chiaki figuratively shitting in his pants how? If anything, his face shown there around 10:24 is not a person who's panicking at how good his opposition is, but rather just acknowledging how good his opponent was. He's nowhere near frenzied looking nor sounding to justify the former during his performance, that's for sure.
And you will not accept that Chiaki is having a crisis of confidence unless he is completely losing his cool, even despite the fact that doing so would be entirely uncharacteristic of what we know of his personality from previous instances? You are unable to accept that someone's reactions to having a crisis of confidence can be anything other than looking and sounding completely frenzied?

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Wow... just wow. I'm accused of fanwanking a series I feel Kasai should've been given the job for (Maybe I should do a complete 180 and start bashing Nodame Cantabile right now, as that might garner better responses ). Not only that, just because a certain scene is cut out means that everything else is Fanwank, when everything makes sense and follows a natural logical progression within the context of the episode? I guess for some people everything needs to be explicitly stated and shown otherwise it's just 'fanwank'.
I was merely pointing out that the way you were trying to "make sense" of everything in the episode involved you coming up with your own interpretations to try and explain away what was left unexplained in the story, which is the definition of Fanwank. Am I incorrect in my interpretation of the term, as applied to you?

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And that's where you and I differ. You are familiar with the other Jean, while all the anime has ever shown that Jean is a gentleman. You seem to have a negative opinion of Jean, while the anime has shown nothing but positives.

On one hand, we can have Jean be a jackass and unsportsman by meaning that the reason why he didn't felt like he lost was because he didn't do his best. On the other, we can have Jean being the gentleman and sportsman he is by meaning that the reason why he didn't felt like he lost was because he tried his best, preparation and all. And judging by Jean's depiction in the anime and anime only, the latter is much likelier considering he was almost perfect to a degree.
First off, I said that Jean said that he "didn't try hard enough", which has a different implication from "didn't do his best". While the latter would indeed suggest that Jean was being unsporting, that would be a conclusion arrived at by your twisting my words to fit your own interpretation. What I was trying to get at, was the point that Jean admitted that he had underestimated his opponent, losing the competition because he didn't work hard enough for that reason, and is paying Chiaki respect by vowing that he will not commit the same mistake again. So tell me again, how does Jean claiming that he didn't try hard enough this time around equate to him being unsporting and a jackass?

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Major facepalm. It was you yourself that told me that they omitted the theme of Chiaki's hardwork vs Jean's lack thereof, of which says nothing extraordinary about Chiaki. Emphasizing that Chiaki has to fully embracing the music, of which only happened once last season IIRC, on the otherhand progresses Chiaki to become a better conductor. You tell me which is 'better.'
For one thing, how was it emphasized that Chiaki became a better conductor through embracing the music? They didn't even show the Violin Concerto (or perhaps more pertinently, his rehash of Till Eulenspiegals) to display how much of a difference it makes when his heart is in the music. It was simply glossed over with a sentence from Nodame; hardly proper execution, don't you think?

For another, you are clearly displaying a bias for the "extraordinary" aspects of Chiaki by implying that the "hard work vs reliance on talent" theme is nothing extraordinary, despite that interpretation going against every scenario that portrayed Chiaki as getting his successes from his work ethic in the first season (from his retort that he "practiced until he was sick" to Mine's grousing that everything seemed too easy to the former, to the way he singlehandedly pulled the standards of a bunch of no-hopers to a respectable standard through forcing his work ethic on them in the S-Oke Arc). You call it "nothing extraordinary", but I see it as an important variation on a theme that existed from the start of Nodame Cantabile, and a theme that is no less, and arguably even more important than that of the "enjoying the music" theme at that.

It's not a case of which theme is "better"; that is merely you trying to foist yet another False Dilemma on me. There is merely the issue of Adaptation Decay, which while to be expected in all adaptations, is simply at an unacceptable level here with the negligence of one of Nodame Cantabile's basic themes.

I'm going to sleep now, don't expect a reply for some hours yet.
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Old 2008-10-21, 20:31   Link #169
DragoonKain3
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Quote:
Tainted? The material in the manga is the original source, and you're claiming that I've somehow 'tainted' my impression of the anime by being familiar with the source material which it made a butcher job of adapting? The absurdity of this is such that I have no idea whether to laugh or cry.
That is exactly it. You think that whatever happens in the source material should also apply to the anime, when nothing could be further from the truth. You're so familiar with the source material that it builds up preconceived notions about characters, events, themes, or even the plot details that while it might be sound in the source material, it doesn't necessarily hold true for its adaptation. With all due respect, and absolutely no offense to you, but it already happened numerous times in regards with you.

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Let me try this again. Why would Chiaki utter the "shit, he's good" line if it is not an indication of the fact that he is suffering a crisis of confidence that led to his overdoing things? Please do not dodge those of my points which are inconvenient to you, because I will keep calling you on it until you address it convincingly.
"Damn, he's really good. I need to try extra harder to beat him." And in doing so, Chiaki lost his feeling with the music, overdoing things with his conducting. Chiaki saw how good his opponent is, and rather than being panicked, he resolved himself to outdo his opponent. Which as we all know is the wrong method to approach the problem, as he didn't do too well for the very same reason before with the second string orchestra.

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I was merely pointing out that the way you were trying to "make sense" of everything in the episode involved you coming up with your own interpretations to try and explain away what was left unexplained in the story, which is the definition of Fanwank. Am I incorrect in my interpretation of the term, as applied to you?
Yep, incorrect. Definition according to one of the most loved, hated by others, but without a doubt the most well known site dealing with fandom (thus is probably the most accepted definition), fandomwank:

In short, fanwank is when a fan goes, "This development in canon makes no sense. However, it would make sense if only they had said, done, or suggested this other thing, which they didn't, but probably should, would, or could have."
Emphasis mine

All I've been telling you is at the very least they have suggested that the reason Chiaki won was because he finally embraced the music. It wasn't explicitly stated, but it was implied by Chiaki's observance of how Katagiri did his conducting, further evidenced by Chiaki's speech before his final piece, and symbolically represented by finally using that stupid doll thing Nodame gave him (BURN IT! ugly piece of trash lol).

And yes, they did suggest it in the anime itself; it's not something I just pulled out of thin air. There's a big difference between fanwank (which mainly deals with suppositions of certain events happening when they didn't actually occur and has no basis at all in canon) and digging a little bit deeper beneath the surface of what actually occurs in the material.

And there's the latter part of the definition:
If enough people like and perpetuate a given fanwank, it can become fanon. Usually this is a relatively harmless activity designed to make the fan feel better about things, hence the name.
Emphasis mine.

Why on earth should I try to make myself feel better about things, when my instincts tell me to find every minor detail the have done wrong in the anime, and say that Kasai wouldn't have made the same mistake? As I said before, I'm a Kenichi Kasai fanatic and not really a Nodame Cantabile one (be it anime or whatnot). But as someone somehwat familiar with literary analysis, I have learned how to push aside my biases and at the very least try to objectively judge a piece independent of source, creator, or any other outside factors that might come in. Granted, I'm not perfect; I don't always succeed (goodness knows I find Kannagi absolutley boring since I already read the source material), but I do try.


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First off, I said that Jean said that he "didn't try hard enough", which has a different implication from "didn't do his best". While the latter would indeed suggest that Jean was being unsporting, that would be a conclusion arrived at by your twisting my words to fit your own interpretation. What I was trying to get at, was the point that Jean admitted that he had underestimated his opponent, losing the competition because he didn't work hard enough for that reason, and is paying Chiaki respect by vowing that he will not commit the same mistake again. So tell me again, how does Jean claiming that he didn't try hard enough this time around equate to him being unsporting and a jackass?
Semantics; point holds true whether or not it was 'he didn't do his best' or 'he didn't try hard enough'. I dunno about you, but the bolded part still sounds like an excuse no matter how you look at it. He is blaming his loss on a factor that is not based on the merits of his actual perfomance, but rather something he could but didn't do just because of a certain reason or other. The very fact that he would be saying that he might even so have a small chance in beating Chiaki if he tried harder is the mark of a sore loser.

Really, if I won a competition and my closest rival said 'Congratulations, but [i]I did not feel like I lost because I underestimated you[i]. Thus I didn't try hard enough so I lost, but I vow never to do the same again' screams nothing but unsportsmanlike to me. You lost... deal with it and suck it up like a man. Don't say that you didn't try harder or whatever, it's all excuses at this point.

On the otherhand, if my closest rival said 'Congratulations, but I did not feel like I lost because I tried my best and there's nothing else I could've done, nor is there anything I regret', it's actually a compliment. Enough to warrant a sportsmanlike response of 'I didn't feel like I won, though', don't you think? (And no, Chiaki is anything but humble, so it certainly wasn't through humility)

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For one thing, how was it emphasized that Chiaki became a better conductor through embracing the music?
That the only difference between him and Jean is that he embraced his music while there was absolutely no evidence to support Jean embraced his music like Katagiri did, and that's why Chiaki won over Jean?

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They didn't even show the Violin Concerto (or perhaps more pertinently, his rehash of Till Eulenspiegals) to display how much of a difference it makes when his heart is in the music. It was simply glossed over with a sentence from Nodame; hardly proper execution, don't you think?
It wasn't just so simple as the sentence from Nodame. As I said before, Chiaki explicitly acknowledge the error of his ways when he saw Katagiri, and then following through this revelation as exhibited by his final speech before the orchestra. Symbolic imagery of Chiaki finally using that stupid doll (need I repeat how fugly I think that thing looks? but I digress) sealed the deal that this is no fluke but actually intended on JC staff's part.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you want the animators to explicitly show how big of a difference was his performance in comparison to Jean? If that is so, then I ask, what is there to show? Going by Chiaki's 'I did not feel like I won, either', he did not win by a considerable margin. The difference in their music would be so small that only musical experts would be able to tell which is better, which in turn would be lost to the majority of the viewers. And we don't even know if they'll be able to recreate such a small difference in quality in the first place. Regardles, instead of trying to show such a small difference and quite possibly failing, they did the right thing and left it to our imaginations, guided by the numerous clues inbedded through the episode, how exactly Chiaki embracing his music produced that 'small difference' that is the margin for his victory.

Yes, it's a big departure from where it seems like he completely omgwtfbbq'ed Jean's ass in the finals, but it fits the context of the episode considering what they purposely omitted (Jean's flaw of not being a hard worker). If they have shown Jean as a slacker then there would be big doubts considering how Chiaki won the finals. But considering there has been no negative remarks about Jean's performance, and all of it positive, we can only assume that Jean consistently placing first in other tourneys is the product of talent and effort.

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For another, you are clearly displaying a bias for the "extraordinary" aspects of Chiaki by implying that the "hard work vs reliance on talent" theme is nothing extraordinary, despite that interpretation going against every scenario that portrayed Chiaki as getting his successes from his work ethic in the first season (from his retort that he "practiced until he was sick" to Mine's grousing that everything seemed too easy to the former, to the way he singlehandedly pulled the standards of a bunch of no-hopers to a respectable standard through forcing his work ethic on them in the S-Oke Arc). You call it "nothing extraordinary", but I see it as an important variation on a theme that existed from the start of Nodame Cantabile, and a theme that is no less, and arguably even more important than that of the "enjoying the music" theme at that.
To each his own, but all I'm going to say is this. We already know that one of Chiaki's greatest strengths would be that he is a hard worker, and showing that he triumphed over someone who is NOT shows very little, if any growth in his path to become a great conductor. Showing how he succusefuly just edged out his closest competitor by enjoying the music on the other hand shows that he is working on his biggest flaw, and thus exhibits the first step on greatness.

Contrast this to Nodame, who enjoys music to the very core of her being, but as shown in the first season she really needs to work on her discpline and effort.

True, hard work is important in Nodame Cantabile, but in Chiaki's case we already know he has it in spades. That being the case, the message is more powerful with Chiaki overcoming adversity by working on his flaw as someone who rarely truely enjoys the music. Nodame on the other hand is the perfect candidate for emphasizing the hard work part.

Really, that's the reason why I got drawn in Nodame Cantabile in the first place... where the two main characters despite their talent are still 'works in progress', with each other's greatest flaw is the other's greatest strength.
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Old 2008-10-21, 21:57   Link #170
Matrim
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Quote:
And we don't even know if they'll be able to recreate such a small difference in quality in the first place. Regardles, instead of trying to show such a small difference and quite possibly failing, they did the right thing and left it to our imaginations, guided by the numerous clues inbedded through the episode, how exactly Chiaki embracing his music produced that 'small difference' that is the margin for his victory.
Er, following that line of reasoning they could have left out all the competition pieces in the anime and just shown the reactions of the audience and comments of the judges, you know.

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Showing how he succusefuly just edged out his closest competitor by enjoying the music on the other hand shows that he is working on his biggest flaw, and thus exhibits the first step on greatness.
And for the umpteenth time, this theme is still very much present in the manga too. It's not as if the anime invented it while in the manga it was all about hard work. The other major point is not merely about hard work but also the impication that Chiaki won largely because he was unknown in Europe and hence was underestimated. In the manga there is a reason why Jean left his dinner early and left his dessert for Nodame - he went to his room to study, something which he was not going to do according to his original plan. And when Vieira called and informed him who his rival was and how good he was, Jean became even more agitated and studied on the night before the final just like Chiaki. Jean was not totally pwned, one judge even say he would like to give three first prizes.
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Old 2008-10-21, 22:09   Link #171
Kaoru Chujo
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I won't go into more detail -- there's already plenty of that in the thread -- but I'll say that although I'm disappointed for the same reasons that Matrim is, I also agree with DragoonKain that we have to make an effort to let the anime stand on its own, and not imagine that the manga is the "real" story. It's the source material, but the anime is allowed to change things, even to change the personalities somewhat. As long as what it does works, and I'm feeling as if things are not as rich or psychologically well explained as they were in the drama. But there is plenty of time. Perhaps they're rushing this in order to give more time to some later things. I hope.
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Old 2008-10-22, 01:54   Link #172
Ascaloth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
That is exactly it. You think that whatever happens in the source material should also apply to the anime, when nothing could be further from the truth. You're so familiar with the source material that it builds up preconceived notions about characters, events, themes, or even the plot details that while it might be sound in the source material, it doesn't necessarily hold true for its adaptation. With all due respect, and absolutely no offense to you, but it already happened numerous times in regards with you.
Ahem, excuse me? Last I heard, this series was an adaptation of original source material, which by association means it should be a transposition of the source material's themes onto another medium. Failure to do even a basic thing as that simply constitutes an unreasonable level of Adaptation Decay, and a failure as an adaptation. My expectations are well within reason, so honestly I am none too pleased that you once again tried to pull a Bulverism on me.

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"Damn, he's really good. I need to try extra harder to beat him." And in doing so, Chiaki lost his feeling with the music, overdoing things with his conducting. Chiaki saw how good his opponent is, and rather than being panicked, he resolved himself to outdo his opponent. Which as we all know is the wrong method to approach the problem, as he didn't do too well for the very same reason before with the second string orchestra.
Which is the reason for his crisis of confidence. Get it yet?

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All I've been telling you is at the very least they have suggested that the reason Chiaki won was because he finally embraced the music. It wasn't explicitly stated, but it was implied by Chiaki's observance of how Katagiri did his conducting, further evidenced by Chiaki's speech before his final piece, and symbolically represented by finally using that stupid doll thing Nodame gave him (BURN IT! ugly piece of trash lol).

And yes, they did suggest it in the anime itself; it's not something I just pulled out of thin air. There's a big difference between fanwank (which mainly deals with suppositions of certain events happening when they didn't actually occur and has no basis at all in canon) and digging a little bit deeper beneath the surface of what actually occurs in the material.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc. The episode merely showed the former sequences, and then cut straight to the prize presentation; I know that the former sequences were directly correlated to the results from the manga, but if we were to go by the anime alone as you keep insisting that we should, then it merely looks like the former caused the latter, with no definite cause-effect link between the two sequences no thanks to the butcher job.

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Semantics; point holds true whether or not it was 'he didn't do his best' or 'he didn't try hard enough'. I dunno about you, but the bolded part still sounds like an excuse no matter how you look at it. He is blaming his loss on a factor that is not based on the merits of his actual perfomance, but rather something he could but didn't do just because of a certain reason or other. The very fact that he would be saying that he might even so have a small chance in beating Chiaki if he tried harder is the mark of a sore loser.

Really, if I won a competition and my closest rival said 'Congratulations, but [i]I did not feel like I lost because I underestimated you[i]. Thus I didn't try hard enough so I lost, but I vow never to do the same again' screams nothing but unsportsmanlike to me. You lost... deal with it and suck it up like a man. Don't say that you didn't try harder or whatever, it's all excuses at this point.

On the otherhand, if my closest rival said 'Congratulations, but I did not feel like I lost because I tried my best and there's nothing else I could've done, nor is there anything I regret', it's actually a compliment. Enough to warrant a sportsmanlike response of 'I didn't feel like I won, though', don't you think? (And no, Chiaki is anything but humble, so it certainly wasn't through humility)
On the contrary, I would think that his admitting that he underestimated Chiaki until it was too late would constitute a tacit apology on his part for such, and therefore a compliment in its own right, if somewhat backhanded. It's just interpretations at this point.

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That the only difference between him and Jean is that he embraced his music while there was absolutely no evidence to support Jean embraced his music like Katagiri did, and that's why Chiaki won over Jean?
Was Roland's "observations" of Jean's "white roses aura" and the judges comments on his "natural flair" completely lost on you, or did you choose not to factor them in because it is inconvenient to your interpretation?

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It wasn't just so simple as the sentence from Nodame. As I said before, Chiaki explicitly acknowledge the error of his ways when he saw Katagiri, and then following through this revelation as exhibited by his final speech before the orchestra. Symbolic imagery of Chiaki finally using that stupid doll (need I repeat how fugly I think that thing looks? but I digress) sealed the deal that this is no fluke but actually intended on JC staff's part.
Another post hoc ergo propter hoc.

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And correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you want the animators to explicitly show how big of a difference was his performance in comparison to Jean? If that is so, then I ask, what is there to show? Going by Chiaki's 'I did not feel like I won, either', he did not win by a considerable margin. The difference in their music would be so small that only musical experts would be able to tell which is better, which in turn would be lost to the majority of the viewers. And we don't even know if they'll be able to recreate such a small difference in quality in the first place. Regardles, instead of trying to show such a small difference and quite possibly failing, they did the right thing and left it to our imaginations, guided by the numerous clues inbedded through the episode, how exactly Chiaki embracing his music produced that 'small difference' that is the margin for his victory.

Yes, it's a big departure from where it seems like he completely omgwtfbbq'ed Jean's ass in the finals, but it fits the context of the episode considering what they purposely omitted (Jean's flaw of not being a hard worker). If they have shown Jean as a slacker then there would be big doubts considering how Chiaki won the finals. But considering there has been no negative remarks about Jean's performance, and all of it positive, we can only assume that Jean consistently placing first in other tourneys is the product of talent and effort.
I did not say that I was expecting J.C. Staff to show the difference in the music, which as you did point out rightly, would be lost to most. However, what they also cut out was the judge's critiques in the final round, which does explicitly describe the differences between Chiaki and Jean from the experts' point of view, and makes it an apparent plot progression to boot, instead of the ambiguous "leaving it to our imagination" gag.

Moreover, you committed a fallacy of quoting out of context. I did not say Chiaki "completely omgwtfbbq'ed Jean's ass", and I never meant anything remotely like that when I said that Chaiki's work ethic is the critical factor in his victory. Therefore, I don't see how it would be "showing Jean as a slacker", and how it would lead to "big doubts considering how Chiaki won the finals".

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To each his own, but all I'm going to say is this. We already know that one of Chiaki's greatest strengths would be that he is a hard worker, and showing that he triumphed over someone who is NOT shows very little, if any growth in his path to become a great conductor. Showing how he succusefuly just edged out his closest competitor by enjoying the music on the other hand shows that he is working on his biggest flaw, and thus exhibits the first step on greatness.
Showing that Chiaki triumphed over Jean partially due to his work ethic may not show much growth, but the point remains that it was a key component of Chiaki's character, and omitting that in favour of the "enjoy the music" theme is not only succumbing to a False Dilemma, but also raises the Unfortunate Implication that hard work doesn't matter as long as you can enjoy the music. Before you build a great tower, you first need a firm foundation; by omitting the portrayal of Chiaki's firm foundation here, it made Chiaki look like he's channeling Jean instead, eskewing work ethic for indulgence in the melody. That is somehow "the first step on greatness" to you?

Quote:
True, hard work is important in Nodame Cantabile, but in Chiaki's case we already know he has it in spades. That being the case, the message is more powerful with Chiaki overcoming adversity by working on his flaw as someone who rarely truely enjoys the music. Nodame on the other hand is the perfect candidate for emphasizing the hard work part.
Again, False Dilemma. Just because there are two themes to be portrayed doesn't mean that one has to be sacrificed for the other.
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Old 2008-10-22, 02:35   Link #173
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Why do I feel like I've stepped into a philosophy classroom ?
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Old 2008-10-23, 07:17   Link #174
Sorrow-K
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Since this is about one lit match away from turning into a flamewar, I'm going to tread very carefully around what people have been saying and just present my own opinion in as inoffensive way as possible...

Ep 2

Yes, that was rushed, but it is just one episode. I don't think it's a major problem unless it happens regularly from here on.
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Old 2008-10-24, 00:38   Link #175
MissInformed
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I was the same way...I didn't want to judge yet because it was just one episode, and they may just want to set the stage for everything that comes later.

But I just watched the raw for ep 3 (well, I kind of flipped through it because it's past my bedtime), and I think it's still going fast. It's not as obvious as the last episode, but still.

I don't have a problem with it because I'm a manga reader, so I'm just enjoying seeing some things animated. But I think if you're just seeing this part of the story for the first time, it is definitely lacking. It just doesn't work the same way without more of the character development.

That being said, I'm still going to watch and enjoy this series.

Edit: Maybe this episode isn't rushed so much as it just feels weird since these events come up so much sooner.

Spoiler for Episode 3:
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Old 2008-10-24, 08:25   Link #176
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Ok, I'm totally lost with ep03. Did they cover 5 months in one episode?
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Old 2008-10-24, 18:46   Link #177
Keiichi_chan
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lol here we go again...
FTR, Nodame clearly looks like a C cup to me.
Also, we're barely 3 episodes in and it IS only an 11 episode series. Considering that the episodes only feel SLIGHTLY rushed is a godsend considering they're trying to complete the second half of the entire series in 11 episodes.
This is still the most entertaining anime series I'm watching by far and I do read the manga but I'm right before this arc starts. If they omitting tons of subtle moments that I enjoy then it'll just make me enjoy the manga that much more when i read it.

My enjoyment of this series hasnt dropped AT ALL despite the new director which I was surprised at. All the bashing is really shocking. Even the bashers still admit they enjoyed the episode. It's not nearly as bad as ep03 of ToraDora which is making me consider dropping that series completely and I've NEVER seen the source material. That episode was just so horrendous..especially after the two initial episodes being so well done.
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Old 2008-10-24, 20:47   Link #178
BigGimp77
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I don't read the manga... So I have nothing to base it off of but,

It seems slightly rushed but overall still a great watch so far. Although since they are putting half of the manga into 11 episodes it leaves me skeptical.
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Old 2008-10-24, 20:50   Link #179
MissInformed
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Originally Posted by Keiichi_chan View Post
considering they're trying to complete the second half of the entire series in 11 episodes.
Really? Has this been established? I thought they'd find a stopping point sooner (a lot of speculation that they'll end around chapter 87...this is what I had guessed too, but now I don't know). That and there aren't many other good places to stop...and the story is still going....

Or is that not what you meant.
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Old 2008-10-24, 21:08   Link #180
Matrim
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No way they are going to try to fit the entire second half in 11 episodes...especially considering the manga is still ongoing and his "second half" technically does not exist in full.

I am fighting the urge to see the raw but they'd better keep the scenes with Elise or there will be blood. I am still pissed that they cut her threat to leave Stresseman and become David Beckham's agent from the last episode.
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