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Old 2011-06-24, 08:24   Link #7761
Merilyn Mensola
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Just FWIW, if you voice your criticism the way you did in your last analysis, I wouldn't have any complaints at all. I may not agree, but it was solid reasoning. I only dislike these "bad writing", "characters are 'destroyed'" etc. kind of oblivious carpet bombing.



This qualification is important. They act realistically, but (all too often) irrationally. I'd agree with that. This, by the way, is how people act in real life, too.



I really disagree with calling Asuka a mere "plot device". She had her scenes, and she has her personality. The thing is rather that _things did not progress past a certain point_ for her, which I can relate to. She likes Haruto and is comfortable with him, but it's no real deep romantic involvement - neither from his nor from her side. So you live your life aside each other until something important rocks the boat, and you realize there's no real reserve to fall back on, and if you're REALLY honest to yourself, you're not even really surprised that it's over - you knew it before.

It kinda reminds me of my first girlfriend a bit. We broke up after ~2 enjoyable years, with me resembling Asuka. She/I also knew before that things weren't okay, but she/I didn't want to leave the comfort zone. But that didn't "destroy" her, just like it didn't destroy me. It's just the way things were going.



It's a natural development in a relationship to "settle down". What did you expect her to do, be violently tsundere all the time? That's just not how things work. The point Seo was making here was exactly that: The life was fairly calm, arguably stagnant, but without major conflict. You do things out of convenience, because you're used to it. You're going through the motions and gradually live yourself apart, until something more urgent comes up.



You do realize that they were very close friends before Haruto ever found out about the Eba link? And that Haruto intended to use the cooking to get closer to Eba again (which he couldn't have done otherwise?)

Sounds plenty logical to me.



And that's also fairly realistic, in my experience. Sometimes there are people you're deeply attached and attracted to, who you're yearning for, and who you're trying to get close to even if they treat you badly. Might not be logical from a third-person perspective, maybe. But realistic.



Beating sense into them is hopeless most of the time. Trust me, I know. Have watched a friend of mine fall apart and ruin his life almost completely, before he could finally break loose (and even today, I'd expect him to have a relapse if he met "her" again).



Just for the record: That's not been the only driving factors here, just some.



Mostly agreed so far.



I don't. She was genuinely throwing the trinket away, and she was genuinely surprised how forcefully he reacted. There were many indications before that she was _enjoying_ the old, "natsukashii" atmosphere. She said so, it made her remember old, good times. It was the famous "last date before leaving for good" she was going for. But she did not expect him to react so strongly. That was no premediated manipulation.



That's how YOU judge it, and that's cool. It's fine that you feel she doesn't deserve him. My point is that just the fact that you resent what's happening doesn't mean it's "illogical", "bad writing" or something. It's perfectly realistic writing, you only dislike the direction the show is taking. That doesn't make the story bad - just unenjoyable FOR YOU. See my point?



Actually, I fully agree with you here. Haruto is acting like a real ass.



So, in summary: I can perfectly understand if you're enraged about what's going on in KNIM. To be honest, so am I. The point I'm insisting on is that what's depicted in KNIM is much more realistic (at least to my life experience) compared to something like Ichigo 100%. And "I don't like how the leads act" doesn't equal "bad writing".
Two years with your girlfriend, and nothing has happened ....
We jumped from Asuka and Haruto get together, to Asuka and Haruto break-up..
This is not realistic...
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Old 2011-06-24, 08:27   Link #7762
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merilyn Mensola View Post
Two years with your girlfriend, and nothing has happened ....
We jumped from Asuka and Haruto get together, to Asuka and Haruto break-up..
This is not realistic...
Why is that not realistic? That they haven't been sexually active? There ARE couples like that in Japan, as I'm told, so it's very uncommon, but not unrealistic.

The point of the storyline was "they 'are together', but there's no progress between them". And this kind of relationship development is VERY realistic actually.
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Old 2011-06-24, 08:46   Link #7763
Merilyn Mensola
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Why is that not realistic? That they haven't been sexually active? There ARE couples like that in Japan, as I'm told, so it's very uncommon, but not unrealistic.

The point of the storyline was "they 'are together', but there's no progress between them". And this kind of relationship development is VERY realistic actually.
I'm not talking about sex, for me is not realistic because if the author, made Haruto and Asuka become a couple, i think that, a bit of development we need to' see.. Good or bad..,but something I wanted to see...not togheter, break-up
I think that, if there had been little development, good or bad, it would be better for the story in this manga.
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Old 2011-06-24, 08:58   Link #7764
KLGChaos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Just FWIW, if you voice your criticism the way you did in your last analysis, I wouldn't have any complaints at all. I may not agree, but it was solid reasoning. I only dislike these "bad writing", "characters are 'destroyed'" etc. kind of oblivious carpet bombing.


This qualification is important. They act realistically, but (all too often) irrationally. I'd agree with that. This, by the way, is how people act in real life, too.



I really disagree with calling Asuka a mere "plot device". She had her scenes, and she has her personality. The thing is rather that _things did not progress past a certain point_ for her, which I can relate to. She likes Haruto and is comfortable with him, but it's no real deep romantic involvement - neither from his nor from her side. So you live your life aside each other until something important rocks the boat, and you realize there's no real reserve to fall back on, and if you're REALLY honest to yourself, you're not even really surprised that it's over - you knew it before.

It kinda reminds me of my first girlfriend a bit. We broke up after ~2 enjoyable years, with me resembling Asuka. She/I also knew before that things weren't okay, but she/I didn't want to leave the comfort zone. But that didn't "destroy" her, just like it didn't destroy me. It's just the way things were going.



It's a natural development in a relationship to "settle down". What did you expect her to do, be violently tsundere all the time? That's just not how things work. The point Seo was making here was exactly that: The life was fairly calm, arguably stagnant, but without major conflict. You do things out of convenience, because you're used to it. You're going through the motions and gradually live yourself apart, until something more urgent comes up.



You do realize that they were very close friends before Haruto ever found out about the Eba link? And that Haruto intended to use the cooking to get closer to Eba again (which he couldn't have done otherwise?)

Sounds plenty logical to me.



And that's also fairly realistic, in my experience. Sometimes there are people you're deeply attached and attracted to, who you're yearning for, and who you're trying to get close to even if they treat you badly. Might not be logical from a third-person perspective, maybe. But realistic.



Beating sense into them is hopeless most of the time. Trust me, I know. Have watched a friend of mine fall apart and ruin his life almost completely, before he could finally break loose (and even today, I'd expect him to have a relapse if he met "her" again).



Just for the record: That's not been the only driving factors here, just some.



Mostly agreed so far.



I don't. She was genuinely throwing the trinket away, and she was genuinely surprised how forcefully he reacted. There were many indications before that she was _enjoying_ the old, "natsukashii" atmosphere. She said so, it made her remember old, good times. It was the famous "last date before leaving for good" she was going for. But she did not expect him to react so strongly. That was no premediated manipulation.



That's how YOU judge it, and that's cool. It's fine that you feel she doesn't deserve him. My point is that just the fact that you resent what's happening doesn't mean it's "illogical", "bad writing" or something. It's perfectly realistic writing, you only dislike the direction the show is taking. That doesn't make the story bad - just unenjoyable FOR YOU. See my point?



Actually, I fully agree with you here. Haruto is acting like a real ass.



So, in summary: I can perfectly understand if you're enraged about what's going on in KNIM. To be honest, so am I. The point I'm insisting on is that what's depicted in KNIM is much more realistic (at least to my life experience) compared to something like Ichigo 100%. And "I don't like how the leads act" doesn't equal "bad writing".
Sorry, would have broken down point by point, but I'm on my laptop and it's being a pain right now.

I suppose we'll have to disagree on some points with the manga, then. You're right in that it didn't go in a direction that I liked. I think most people call it bad writing out of frustration.... but, as has been mentioned before, what people consider good and bad writing is subjective to the person reading it. For me, it's not bad writing because it's frustrating, but more because of me being a logical person, can't wrap my head around some of the illogical things that the characters do, no matter if they're realistic or not, as I mentioned in my last post. Comes from being raised from a very scientific family. Not to mention the time skip of two years to avoid developing a character or a relationship (seriously, two years and no sex is just strange). It's like Seo painted a big bullseye on Asuksa's forehead that said "Rejected" when he did that. I would have preferred him to at least make us believe she had an actual shot instead of telling us she was expendable from the get-go. Would have made things much more interesting than watching him waste chapters on useless characters like Shiori (I mean, did she even have a point other than to show us that Haruto had no problems lying to Asuka?) as people waited for Eba to come back. He handled the whole thing much better in Suzuka with Honoka.

I've been in Haruto's position. I was dumped for a girl by someone else and we met up again a couple years later and wanted to start over again. I turned her down, despite being single, because I had put the past behind me and I didn't want to get stuck back in it and had moved on. Haruto's doing basically the opposite of what I did. I'm a big fan of putting the past behind you and looking towards the future and the actions in KNIM all seem to be stuck in the past-- Eba loving Haruto because he helped her in the past (once), Haruto unable to move past his feelings for her. I've never really found that to be a healthy attitude, personally, though others may disagree.

And I know where you're coming from with wanting to beat your friends senseless, but it not working. One friend is now (miserably) married to a woman who used him quite a bit. My sister got played by an ex so many times that every time I stayed up late at night comforting her, it got harder to do so after every time she went back (thank goodness she finally got rid of him and is now engaged to a really great guy who loves her). I know people act irrationally when it comes to love, but I definitely don't like it.

As for Eba not deserving Haruto, I don't think that. Considering some of the awful things Haruto has done lately, I'm surprised she'd want a guy like him. Honestly, though, to me it's more like they just don't belong together anymore. I was once a huge supporter of Haruto x Eba before the Tokyo arc. After that, the whole thing left a bitter taste in my mouth and I began to think that they really should move on. This goes along with my whole stuck in the past thing, but imo, the characters haven't really grown or changed too much since the story started. It's almost as if after this, they'll be back at square one without any real wisdom gained from all of this.

That's not just this manga, though. A lot of mangas are like that until the end and it's a shame. That includes Suzuka, where Yamato didn't really change until after he got Suzuka pregnant, and Ichigo 100% where Manaka didn't really mature until the last several chapters. I'd love to read a manga where the characters consistently change and grow throughout the story instead of it all happening at once at the end.

And one more point, while it's true that Ichigo 100% became a cycle for Aya and Satsuki, Tsukasa actually grew up quite a bit throughout the series. She's really the only one who did. But, I think we're starting to get off topic here. :P

Anyway. if there's one thing I've come to realize is that in any opinion we form, whether about manga, movies, politics, etc. it's all shaped by our own life experiences, which is why I doubt there will ever be a consensus on whether or not this manga is good or not. :P Depends on what you're looking for, I guess.
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Old 2011-06-24, 09:16   Link #7765
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I see people are having fun debating although for me the only bad writing comes from the Tokyo arc where it was irrational/illogical and out of character, the author could actually use more background to make it palatable but instead just gave everyone this wtf and well moving on lol. The rest after was meh or I stop caring. Well I would like to see someone defend the Tokyo arc with that entire BS.

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Originally Posted by KLGChaos View Post
I've been in Haruto's position. I was dumped for a girl by someone else and we met up again a couple years later and wanted to start over again. I turned her down, despite being single, because I had put the past behind me and I didn't want to get stuck back in it and had moved on. Haruto's doing basically the opposite of what I did. I'm a big fan of putting the past behind you and looking towards the future and the actions in KNIM all seem to be stuck in the past-- Eba loving Haruto because he helped her in the past (once), Haruto unable to move past his feelings for her. I've never really found that to be a healthy attitude, personally, though others may disagree.
Hmmm this part doesn’t resonate well with me, it could be a difference in circumstance but in Seo's world both characters still like each other a lot and the break up was devised by a plot device Kazama where it shouldn't had happen. Using Hindsight we know Haruto and Eba still love each other and there was never a someone else like another lover in actuality however was a sick person where it happen out of obligation (insane reason). I don't believe the situation is similar, since the idea is irrational to begin with but if you understood your gf went out with someone because they were dying, that feeling itself would be different (subjective), at least from my view I wouldn't feel I was dump or cheated but realised there is someone who made the wrong choice although a hard one. I agree with Haruto action there in taking her back however I couldn't understand Yuzuki who seem different.

I always bring up the Yuzuki who hid in the forest only to be with Haruto showing she has no interest in other and was devoted to just one person. So I couldn't understand why there couldn't be another choice in her decision at the time. Unless people want to use she is a weak girl who is easily manipulated by puppy dog’s eye on crutches lol.

Moving on from the past is a fine logic although in KniM the past was never saved nor corrected when Yuzuki was the one who needed help the most, I feel from my position she was the biggest victim in all this, I would say being stuck with someone you don't like and being with them due to obligation and in the process losing the one you do love. What do people really see in all this I wonder. I see it being unfair to burden a single character who was quite happy before this, cheerful and energetic would describe the Yuzuki of the past. Also she could never solve her own issue and Haruto was the one who would save her. I will call that fate. Characters that have a strong bond enough that made Haruto and Nanami fall apart so easily only to have it destroy by the Gods (Seo) in this case. I would characterised force writing is a form of bad writing when you take too much liberty from the characters themselves.

Asuka............. no comment just a convient character there to slap Haruto and then dissapear forever lol.

Last edited by Nemuru; 2011-06-24 at 09:44.
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Old 2011-06-24, 09:24   Link #7766
Mentar
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KLGchaos: Well, then we're actually not THAT far apart.

I mean look - in "Suzuka", I raged hard at how Seo treated Honoka, a girl much more deserving of the male lead's love. Two times lookswise and five times personalitywise compared to Suzuka. Trust me, I understand the irritation all too well.

The point is that I'm convinced that Seo has a psychological defect. He even partly admitted to it in an interview. He is living his male leads, and emotional compulsion - to be hardwired on one girl no matter what - is the name of his game. No matter how abusive (Suzuka) or needy (Eba) these girls are, he's forced back to them. That's the only kind of story he can write.

Why do I still read them? First of course, naturally, because his artwork is amazing. The girls drawn by him are hotter than hotterson on the physical side, and he also knows how to make them appealing personalitywise aswell. The SIDE characters, that is. Think Miki, Yui and especially Honoka in Suzuka. Think all the girls sans Shiori in KNIM. They're making it all worthwhile, even when the male lead bumbles around again.

It's a slice of life you can watch and sometimes bear with a slight sigh. Don't let it get to you too much ^_^; ... he's writing about real life, no sweet romance fantasies. It's much more grey...
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Old 2011-06-24, 09:25   Link #7767
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I see people are having fun debating although for me the only bad writing comes from the Tokyo arc where it was irrational/illogical and out of character, the author could actually use more background to make it palatable but instead just gave everyone this wtf and well moving on lol. The rest after was meh or I stop caring. Well I would like to see someone defend the Tokyo arc with that entire BS.
Fine, I bite. What exactly was "BS"? Some concrete examples, please.
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Old 2011-06-24, 09:34   Link #7768
Merilyn Mensola
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
KLGchaos: Well, then we're actually not THAT far apart.

I mean look - in "Suzuka", I raged hard at how Seo treated Honoka, a girl much more deserving of the male lead's love. Two times lookswise and five times personalitywise compared to Suzuka. Trust me, I understand the irritation all too well.

The point is that I'm convinced that Seo has a psychological defect. He even partly admitted to it in an interview. He is living his male leads, and emotional compulsion - to be hardwired on one girl no matter what - is the name of his game. No matter how abusive (Suzuka) or needy (Eba) these girls are, he's forced back to them. That's the only kind of story he can write.

Why do I still read them? First of course, naturally, because his artwork is amazing. The girls drawn by him are hotter than hotterson on the physical side, and he also knows how to make them appealing personalitywise aswell. The SIDE characters, that is. Think Miki, Yui and especially Honoka in Suzuka. Think all the girls sans Shiori in KNIM. They're making it all worthwhile, even when the male lead bumbles around again.

It's a slice of life you can watch and sometimes bear with a slight sigh. Don't let it get to you too much ^_^; ... he's writing about real life, no sweet romance fantasies. It's much more grey...
In this, i agree with you...
I think, in Suzuka, the break-up between Yamato and Honoka is different
between that Asuka and Haruto...
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Old 2011-06-24, 09:44   Link #7769
KLGChaos
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Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
KLGchaos: Well, then we're actually not THAT far apart.

I mean look - in "Suzuka", I raged hard at how Seo treated Honoka, a girl much more deserving of the male lead's love. Two times lookswise and five times personalitywise compared to Suzuka. Trust me, I understand the irritation all too well.

The point is that I'm convinced that Seo has a psychological defect. He even partly admitted to it in an interview. He is living his male leads, and emotional compulsion - to be hardwired on one girl no matter what - is the name of his game. No matter how abusive (Suzuka) or needy (Eba) these girls are, he's forced back to them. That's the only kind of story he can write.

Why do I still read them? First of course, naturally, because his artwork is amazing. The girls drawn by him are hotter than hotterson on the physical side, and he also knows how to make them appealing personalitywise aswell. The SIDE characters, that is. Think Miki, Yui and especially Honoka in Suzuka. Think all the girls sans Shiori in KNIM. They're making it all worthwhile, even when the male lead bumbles around again.

It's a slice of life you can watch and sometimes bear with a slight sigh. Don't let it get to you too much ^_^; ... he's writing about real life, no sweet romance fantasies. It's much more grey...
He partially admitted to having a psychological defect? o.O Where is that interview? I knew he had a short-hair fetish, but didn't realize he lived through his characters. I suppose in a way that's fine, but the man needs to branch out from the single-minded obsession with one girl.

And yeah, Honoka was 1000 times better than Suzuka. The latter eventually came around in the last 20 chapters or so of the series, but it still made me wonder just what he saw in her abusiveness. I will admit, though, Suzuka had a lot more "moments" than KNIM has had-- the firefly scene when they visited Hiroshima being one of my favorites. They helped take the edge off of Suzuka's general bitchiness. The ice flower thing is probably the closest this series has produced and it definitely didn't really have the impact it should have. Of course, I felt the whole part with them getting together didn't come close to the graveyard confession in Suzuka either. Accepting a confession while getting a train doesn't quite have the same "oomph" as a girl telling her dead ex-love that she really loved someone else at his grave.

I still can't see this as too realistic, though. I think I was spoiled by GE, which portrayed lots of character growth through it's chapters and much more down to earth characters.... though that's starting to take a turn for rageville as well with these last few chapters. Can understand where the main girl is coming from, but it's still seriously messed up.

I do have to wonder if Seo is married or has a girlfriend in real life. If his characters really are a reflection of how he really is... I'd be scared.
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Old 2011-06-24, 10:01   Link #7770
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Fine, I bite. What exactly was "BS"? Some concrete examples, please.
I see you have spare time to spend in the KniM thread rather being in the Hayate sub forums lol. There's going to be too much repetition since that arc has always been a troll fest to me. And the long debates in the past.

I remember you did wrote a post saying how you found her action (Yuzuki) admirable while writing about the difference in opinion you have with the many others that dislike the entire arc.

Answer me this, do you intend to debate again on this topic enough that warrants me to take the next step? Or would it be consuming more of my time than neccessary.
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Old 2011-06-24, 10:59   Link #7771
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I consider it bad writing because he's just tossing characters left and right to the whim of whatever's convenient for him. Sure some of these resulting actions might be realistic but I really can't believe that it was intended to be that way. I was fine with Eba and Haruto before the Tokyo arc and there's still a part of me that clearly wants to see them together in some form, but not at the expense of having to fucking ruin other characters to do it. There's no point in having side characters in KNIM at all now. They might all be obstacles but when the lead runner is just forced to go in circles then shit doesn't go anywhere. I sincerely believe the side characters are little more than fanservice fodder at this point and while I love fan service I would enjoy it more as a bonus to being developed as a character then just a fucking distraction. Good Ending is a perfect example of it being done right.

Fuck it. Bring back the retardedly hot older classmate who black mailed him. What about that absurdly delicious chef he worked with for like two god damn chapters? Get them bother together and throw in Kiyomi for good measure.

AWESOMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
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Old 2011-06-24, 11:06   Link #7772
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What's "superior"?

Ichigo 100% was less frustrating and easier to consume. But it also felt very artificial to me. Things are too "convenient" here.

KNIM is much more frustrating, but also much more realistic. Yes, I'm serious. Why? Because I've seen elements of behavior here - particularly irritating ones - which I've seen and partly experienced in my own life. Things are not convenient or perfect, they are flawed and annoying.

So, Ichigo 100% is sweet easily digested fiction. Fun, and rarely annoying or enraging. KNIM has a much higher frustration factor, but is more rooted in reality. At least I can relate to it much better.

So, it boils down to what you want to read.
i like ichigo 100% myself... and it's a 'first girl' wins in my opinion on that one too... since to me, first girl = first girlfriendl <> first girl who's pantsu you saw. but i digress.

we all knew eba is coming back for the ending. ... and it was going to get ugly... we just didn't know how exactly it was going to go down until now.

i'm going to accept this and move on.
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Old 2011-06-24, 12:26   Link #7773
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Originally Posted by Nemuru View Post
I remember you did wrote a post saying how you found her action (Yuzuki) admirable while writing about the difference in opinion you have with the many others that dislike the entire arc.

Answer me this, do you intend to debate again on this topic enough that warrants me to take the next step? Or would it be consuming more of my time than neccessary.
*shrug*

It was you who complained about how illogical the Tokyo arc was. I say it wasn't, and yeah, I considered Yuzuki's actions in Tokyo to be admirable. Whether or not you want to debate the point is up to you.

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I was fine with Eba and Haruto before the Tokyo arc and there's still a part of me that clearly wants to see them together in some form, but not at the expense of having to fucking ruin other characters to do it.
How were they "ruined"? They weren't. They're no lesser humans simply because they're not with Haruto or anything.

Quote:
There's no point in having side characters in KNIM at all now. They might all be obstacles but when the lead runner is just forced to go in circles then shit doesn't go anywhere.
If you seriously demand a surprise ending match, Seo is the wrong author for you. Same goes for GE, by the way.

Quote:
I sincerely believe the side characters are little more than fanservice fodder at this point and while I love fan service I would enjoy it more as a bonus to being developed as a character then just a fucking distraction. Good Ending is a perfect example of it being done right.
I find this slightly humorous since the ending match of GE has been clear from chapter 1. And the side characters (e.g. the tennis senpai, or Oonuma the burger joint tit monster) have been "ruined" just the same way KNIM dealt with them. The differences between both stories I see are the considerably worse artwork, and the fact that the male lead is even more clumsy and riddled with self-doubts, which makes for slightly different kinds of crises.
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Old 2011-06-24, 12:35   Link #7774
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What would "save" this series in my mind is if Yuzuki pulls some utterly charming shit for the next 10 chapters to make readers fall in love with her until the very end. Of course Haruto will need to acquire a set of nuts to complement such development.
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Old 2011-06-24, 12:42   Link #7775
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How were they "ruined"? They weren't. They're no lesser humans simply because they're not with Haruto or anything.
Asuka's current personality is nothing like how she acted when Kazama was alive. She used to be very active, aggressive, and direct. As Haruto's girlfriend, she became a doormat that was fine with anything and everything Haruto did. Hell, even as Haruto was about to break up with her she even said that she would take whatever excuse he gives. Since Seo conveniently timeskipped a majority of their relationship, we have no idea how or why Asuka turned out that way.

We also have Kiyomi, who has her standards and is picky about who she likes. Then Haruto says that Takashi likes her and all of a sudden she becomes a tsundere towards him in an instant.
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Old 2011-06-24, 12:56   Link #7776
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Asuka's current personality is nothing like how she acted when Kazama was alive. She used to be very active, aggressive, and direct.
Only at the VERY beginning. After they became acquainted, the aggressive side vanished even before they were linking up.

Quote:
As Haruto's girlfriend, she became a doormat that was fine with anything and everything Haruto did. Hell, even as Haruto was about to break up with her she even said that she would take whatever excuse he gives. Since Seo conveniently timeskipped a majority of their relationship, we have no idea how or why Asuka turned out that way.
Oh please. There were many chapters of Asuka caring for Haruto in GF-mode even before they ever linked up. There never was this big character shift you seem to be implying.

Quote:
We also have Kiyomi, who has her standards and is picky about who she likes. Then Haruto says that Takashi likes her and all of a sudden she becomes a tsundere towards him in an instant.
While I'm no big fan of the Takashi linkup, Kiyomi was ALWAYS a hothead and not very sure of herself. She obviously rejected people while she was hardwired on Kazama. After that, she stayed solo for a long time, until Haruto drilled into her that Kazama asked him to look after her, and that she should stop moping and give others a chance. And so, she's TRYING to do that now. Her embarrassment doesn't stem from Takashi being so irresistible, but from her awkwardness to try to give him a chance, and her repeated irritations over his fickleness.

So that's "ruining" characters for you? My my...
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Old 2011-06-24, 13:39   Link #7777
jzmagic
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141 spoilers are out

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Old 2011-06-24, 13:49   Link #7778
Emulator
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Chapter 141 spoiler translated.
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Old 2011-06-24, 13:50   Link #7779
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Old 2011-06-24, 14:09   Link #7780
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