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View Poll Results: Macross Frontier - Episode 11 Rating
Perfect 10 32 29.36%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 34 31.19%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 24 22.02%
7 out of 10 : Good 12 11.01%
6 out of 10 : Average 5 4.59%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.92%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.92%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 109. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-06-22, 14:47   Link #201
aldw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
IMO, Macross fights >>>>>> Gundam fights. ESPECIALLY Gundam 00 which had the most overhacked/godmode mechs ever. Because of the sheer absurdity of the mechs, any fight scenes in Gundam 00 could be summed up as 'Gundam comes in, pwns everyone, leaves'. There's none of the tension that can be found in Macross Frontier fights.

And the characters...ugh, they really chose the wrong people to follow for the entire series. I hated celestial being. Graham Aker should have been the main char. At least Alto and co are much more intr than the Gundam pilots (who I swear are some of the more common archetypes seen in anime)
The missile spam and fluid battle movements always made Macross battles a real delight to see, while Gundam battles seemed more like slugs racing...
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Old 2008-06-22, 15:01   Link #202
ickem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aldw View Post
The missile spam and fluid battle movements always made Macross battles a real delight to see, while Gundam battles seemed more like slugs racing...
Well Gundam fights are basically still pictures of mecha being moved around the screen. You get to see them in still poses before they engage and after they have destroyed the enemy and that's it.
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Old 2008-06-22, 15:11   Link #203
Anh_Minh
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Can't say I'm a fan of the missile spam. I mean, yeah, whoopie. You've got missiles. They own. Was there any need for a giant mech to bring them to the fight? Was there even a need for a plane?

And I liked Gundam's melee fights. Sure, they're silly. But they're entertaining.
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Old 2008-06-22, 15:14   Link #204
Tak
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Can't say I'm a fan of the missile spam. I mean, yeah, whoopie. You've got missiles. They own. Was there any need for a giant mech to bring them to the fight? Was there even a need for a plane?

And I liked Gundam's melee fights. Sure, they're silly. But they're entertaining.
Shure, ace pilots don't get hit by mere missile spams, just as grunt MS pilots crap in their pants when Gundams close in for a saber kill. Its just as entertaining to watch Valkyrie dispose missiles in mid-air and Gundam pilots locking swords. Hell, even Gundam missile spams, we just don't see it as often.

But based on your logic, I doubt we needed a giant mech in Gundam too, but then again, taking Gundams and Valkyries out pretty much destroy the point of even creating those shows.

Nonetheless, the comparative quality of the action sequences in Frontier and the most recent Gundam, 00, is painfully obvious.

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Originally Posted by ickem View Post
Well Gundam fights are basically still pictures of mecha being moved around the screen. You get to see them in still poses before they engage and after they have destroyed the enemy and that's it.
The worst part was 00's characters and plot. I love SEED, and I love Destiny. People who remember from the Gundam forums would recall my involvement in lengthy discussions regarding Lacus' merits and the powers of her fabled 'pixie dust', which needless to say, gave many of us many sleepless days and nights. Both shows had had good characters, even if the latter failed somewhat to capitalize on SEED's foundations.

But 00? I cannot find a single likable character out of the four 'meisters' that were slapped on my screen. Ok, occasionally maybe just one out of the four, and its not a hard guess which one I am referring to.

As for the plot, never-mind the entire story was naivety at its extreme, out of 25 episodes at least half involves the Gundams and the rest of the world pretty much doing the same thing over, and over and over again, using the same pattern, same method and same bullshit. I thought I got the point, but no, they had to drill it into my head deeper and deeper. Shoot, I didn't sign up for a political indoctrination class.

- Tak (GERMANY ADVANCES!)

Last edited by Tak; 2008-06-22 at 15:30.
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Old 2008-06-22, 15:15   Link #205
evil|plushie
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It's kinda ironic you think the notion of bringing missiles into a mecha fight is useless but you like melee fights between giant mechs...
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Old 2008-06-22, 15:45   Link #206
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Shure, ace pilots don't get hit by mere missile spams, just as grunt MS pilots crap in their pants when Gundams close in for a saber kill. Its just as entertaining to watch Valkyrie dispose missiles in mid-air and Gundam pilots locking swords. Hell, even Gundam missile spams, we just don't see it as often.
Yeah, and I wasn't particularly excited to see that either.

Quote:
But based on your logic, I doubt we needed a giant mech in Gundam too, but then again, taking Gundams and Valkyries out pretty much destroy the point of even creating those shows.
To hit a giant mech with a giant sword, you pretty much need a giant arm and a giant torso, at least. And having built those two already, you might as well build a head, two legs, and a second arm. (Heck, you need that second arm to hold either a second sword or a shield.)

But when it comes to missiles spam, it looks like they could just catapult a few missiles pods into range, and maybe have one guy in a plane to watch the computer lock on the gazillion targets and push the launch button. The fact they're mounted on a mech is completely irrelevant.

And before we start a silly debate about realism - I know that swords have all but disappeared from the battlefields, while missiles are very much "in". That's not the problem, here.
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Old 2008-06-22, 15:50   Link #207
evil|plushie
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Well...technically the missiles ARE mounted onto a plane and can be launched in plane form too. I forgot what the reason for making the plane transform into a mech was, but I do remember that in the PS2 game, your valkyrie transforming into mech mode was very convenient for suddenly stopping, turning 180 and then flying off again.
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Old 2008-06-22, 15:53   Link #208
Tak
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The reason for battroid transformation was because the Valkyries were also designed for land combat, and in case you have forogtten Anh_Minh, battroid mode was a response to the discovery of the Zentradi race. Yes, it was designed for close-quarters combat with those guys.

Realistically speaking, when flying beyond Mach 2, why is it that you still choose to close in with a sword for a kill is beyond me. After all, there are more powerful weapons in Gundam that can do the trick from far, far away. Still, as Anh_Minh pointed out earlier, what would be the fun in that if you took swords away from Gundam's happy lil' hands. Just as there wouldn't be any fun if you take away Valkyries' missile spam.

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Old 2008-06-22, 16:17   Link #209
Wesley84
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I haven't liked a battle in Frontier since episode four.

So far in SDF, the battles are much more entertaining, not to mention interesting. Frontiers by comparison feel like they're having battles for the sake of having them, which is funny since on one side of SDF's that was quite literally the case. :eyespin
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Old 2008-06-22, 16:28   Link #210
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil|plushie View Post
Well...technically the missiles ARE mounted onto a plane and can be launched in plane form too. I forgot what the reason for making the plane transform into a mech was, but I do remember that in the PS2 game, your valkyrie transforming into mech mode was very convenient for suddenly stopping, turning 180 and then flying off again.
I'm just saying. Why bother with a whole plane when you could just throw the missile pods from a ship? Just put them in a catapult, and throw them.

As I was saying, to wield a sword, you need an arm and a torso. But what do you need for missiles? Just the pods.

It's really not a concern over realism. I mean, giant mech. It's about what's "entertaining", or "cool". To me, missile spams aren't. I've heard of similar complaints about Freedom's beam spam.
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Old 2008-06-22, 16:31   Link #211
Tak
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I'm just saying. Why bother with a whole plane when you could just throw the missile pods from a ship? Just put them in a catapult, and throw them.
Because a lot of times they can't hit a target size of a football field?

If you want a Macross in-verse reference, there is VFX-2, and you will probably know why not.

- Tak
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Old 2008-06-22, 16:44   Link #212
Terra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I'm just saying. Why bother with a whole plane when you could just throw the missile pods from a ship? Just put them in a catapult, and throw them.
Actually I can think of a good reason. A plane can pinpoint deliver the missiles to where they're needed, rather than launching them from a ship where until they reach the point they're needed at, they're easy targets. On a plane you can dodge. Plus chances are your target is moving as well, so you need the flexibility to adjust the aim, so as not to needlessly waste probably hundreds maybe even thousands of missiles.

Anyway, can we get back to ep 11. It's better than this pointless argument. People like what they like, and people dislike what they dislike. Live with it and stop trying to convert people the other way if they don't want to. Not to mention it's the wrong forum.
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Old 2008-06-22, 16:54   Link #213
Anh_Minh
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You don't aim with missiles. You have a computer lock onto targets and launch them in whatever direction. The guidance system does the rest. You'd just need one plane and a "fold data link" or whatever to manage countless missile launching pods.

As for the "easy target" argument... Just hope your missiles outrange most enemy weapons? Or throw enough of them that it's ok to lose a few?

Anyway, it's anime. Rule of Cool overrides any common sense or physical law. And yes, it's a matter of taste. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I'm just explaining why missile spams don't really do it for me.
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Old 2008-06-22, 18:15   Link #214
cerrian
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Actually there are very good operational reasons as to why you choose a plane delivery system over a pod. It boils down to 2 key issues, the ability to project the fleets firepower range and local control of the target acquisition and fire control operations (independent of fleet command and control).

As a weapons delivery platform, planes extend the ship's firepower range which is limited to the planes fuel and pilot's limits. In addition to being more responsive to events in their local area, planes are also able to take action independent of the ship's command and control center, all the while being in positive control of the missile delivery system. Hence one of the many reasons we see very very few unmanned, autonomous, weapon deployment systems in real life.
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Old 2008-06-22, 18:29   Link #215
dahak
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Originally Posted by stray View Post
Seems like when you factor in fold distortion (i <3 general relativity) it's a 2 week round trip at the very least not counting time spent there.
To quote Luca, 1 day there and a week back. Still doesn't put it out of reason they can be back before the nebulous date of Ranka's first concert. The date of which appears to have only been finalized the day before so a couple of weeks for advertising asnd organization seems reasonable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Gundam X offered perhaps the highest casualties in Gundam in terms of lives lost. Nonetheless, that is nothing compared to how many lives lost whenever UN SPACY gets f**ked by Zentradi fleets between the years of 2010 ~ 2030s.
The 2011 battle in Macross has a maximum total human and Zentradi combined casualty total of close on 10 billion. 6 billion on earth [about what we've got now and assuming the civil defenses we saw were totally useless] and 4 billion Zentradi ship crew [Zentradi ship crews average around 800 and they've only got 5 or so million ships present]. Later battles seem to have casualties in lower orders of magnitude.

Gundam X has 10 billion on Earth plus the vast majority of its space colonists killed [which is probably only another few billion in the non L3 colonies]. Then half the survivors on Earth starve to death during the "nuclear winter" of the next few years. In many ways X is the cheeriest of the Gundams getting most of the unpleasantness out of the way in the intro.

UC Gundam's One year war has 3.8 billion casualties in the first week and a total of 6-18 billion overall. Plus however many Operation Stardust kills off and various later incidents of colony neeming and gassing. Though those mostly are merely megadeath riot control incidents.

Casualty levels for the franchises as a whole seem comparable. Gundam just has it's gigadeaths in the initial intro rather than mid episode. And of course is set further in the future so as to have more people available to kill off.

Including computer games gets sticky. How many Super Robot Wars casualties do we count? Does Ghiren's Greed enable me to count some or all of the remainder of the UC one year war population as dead?

If you count in Robotech you might get another couple of billion casualties for Macross. But then there is the story where Char discovers the Ideon for another galactic population of deaths on the Gundam side.

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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Not to mention Macross doesn't play this dodgy game with nuclear weapons. Sure, they renamed it as reactive weapons, but they use it fairly casually. In contrast, Gundam view nuclear weapons as if they were some sort of a unbelievable doomsday device, I mean, as if the Gundams themselves weren't bad enough already.
What dodgy game with nuclear weapons?

X doesn't have them since the Feds have the more convenient satellite cannon [Honest that is not a Mecha portable Reflex cannon] and the colonists have very big kinetic weapons full of Federation civilians for mass destruction.

UC has the first week of the one year war, the GP02's attack on the naval review and Chars counter attack as the only times I can recall nukes being used. In all of which the big doomsday weapons are large [O'Neil Islands] to absolutely huge [a dwarf planet] kinetic weapons. With an occasional side order of multi kilometer beam diameter energy weapons.

As for SEED or Wing, other than Stargazer I haven't seen them so I can't comment.

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Originally Posted by Tak View Post
Nonetheless, the comparative quality of the action sequences in Frontier and the most recent Gundam, 00, is painfully obvious.
Agreed. Frontier gives far more impression so far that the heroes can die each time they go out. 00 lacked that for most of the series and didn't use scenery much either. And I don't remember anything approaching to the level of say Gundam Evolve 8 [to name one of Sunrise's better bits of relatively recent mecha porn] in 00. the fight at the beginning of MF episode 2 was up there though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak
Realistically speaking, when flying beyond Mach 2, why is it that you still choose to close in with a sword for a kill is beyond me.
Amuro had a tendancy to run out of beam rifle shots [The RX-78 only had 10-12 per rifle] before enemies [since they came in threes or fours and he wasn't that good a shot]. Leaving him the options of run away or close combat.

After that it became tradition.
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Old 2008-06-22, 19:21   Link #216
Tak
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Originally Posted by dahak View Post

The 2011 battle in Macross has a maximum total human and Zentradi combined casualty total of close on 10 billion. 6 billion on earth [about what we've got now and assuming the civil defenses we saw were totally useless] and 4 billion Zentradi ship crew [Zentradi ship crews average around 800 and they've only got 5 or so million ships present].
According to Misa, she mentioned that 10 billion lives on Earth were lost during a massive Zentradi raid. This does not include Zentradi casualties. Not excluding the loss of colonies after Space War I, which would include Megaroad 1 all the way to Macross Galaxy. Of course, I was 'unfairly' cheating that time when I first mentioned it. See, what most of you forgot is that it wasn't just the humans and the Zentradi fighting the humans being blown apart left n' right. See, if you include the Zentradi fleets, those 4 million fleets fighting a proxy war against the Supervision Army, then you have on your hands, almost incalculable casualty count

Quote:
Originally Posted by dahak View Post
What dodgy game with nuclear weapons?

X doesn't have them since the Feds have the more convenient satellite cannon [Honest that is not a Mecha portable Reflex cannon] and the colonists have very big kinetic weapons full of Federation civilians for mass destruction.

UC has the first week of the one year war, the GP02's attack on the naval review and Chars counter attack as the only times I can recall nukes being used. In all of which the big doomsday weapons are large [O'Neil Islands] to absolutely huge [a dwarf planet] kinetic weapons. With an occasional side order of multi kilometer beam diameter energy weapons.
Kawamori mentioned it was not in good taste to mention nuclear arsenal during the late 70s early 80s TV shows. Thus why the Gundam Franchise never actually 'deployed' them until SEED & Destiny. I mean, it takes a lot of effort to actually do a 'colony drop', 'island drop' or whatever drop have you, but it takes considerably much less effort to manufacturer a massive arsenal of nuclear devices and actually deploy them on the field. Macross uses nukes almost too casually. Heck, the Monsters were all nuclear delivering platforms.

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00 lacked that for most of the series and didn't use scenery much either.
I don't know if 'Gundam coma' had anything to do with it, but I am not enthusiastic about the fights in 00 at all. The idea where a handful of Gundams attempt to change the world is a formula that I am getting very weary of. Never mind that unnamed pilots are absolutely worthless (be that enemy or foe), but the whole idea where two aces, duking it out to achieve something decisive is a formula that is getting very tiresome. Its as if the world revolves around these few naive individuals.

You know, while I sometimes indulge in the guilty pleasure of watching Gundam, I also realize I devoted years into the study of Political Science and International Relations, only to see whatever credentials I have being rendered completely worthless in every world portrayed by the Gundam Franchise due to the appearance of some 'children', whose naivety we shall rely upon to save the world. Then I thought to myself, wow, if it was that easy, wtf did I waste my time for...

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Old 2008-06-22, 19:27   Link #217
Zekori
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Anyway, it's anime. Rule of Cool overrides any common sense or physical law. And yes, it's a matter of taste. I'm not trying to convert anyone. I'm just explaining why missile spams don't really do it for me.
May be fine for you, but I always liked Macross for its realism to certain degrees while containing to its storyline. Even in real combat scenario, you wouldn't be able to have a ship carry a hundred thousand missiles and spamming it with out hitting your own men or I'm assuming in zero gravity situations the control of a object that cannot perform deacceleration to actually hit something thats either moving.

If Macross followed any conventional animes like Bleach, Gundam, and what not then nearly all of the main protagonists would have had some special ability to make their ability noticeable from the aces. However this has never been the case, and we always see the pilots have successes and failures in combat and that level of realism is what makes macross more enjoyable for me.

I believe even before there was mention that one of the directors for the macross series (Plus? Can't remember) even went on airforce carrier to get his stuff confirmed. Can't remember if that was true or not.

Quote:
I don't know if 'Gundam coma' had anything to do with it, but I am not enthusiastic about the fights in 00 at all. The idea where a handful of Gundams attempt to change the world is a formula that I am getting very weary of. Never mind that unnamed pilots are absolutely worthless (be that enemy or foe), but the whole idea where two aces, duking it out to achieve something decisive is a formula that is getting very tiresome. Its as if the world revolves around these few naive individuals.
00 had the promise to be very promising for massive large scale combat, but like always its a let down when they get to that stage.
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Old 2008-06-22, 20:22   Link #218
Tak
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Originally Posted by Zekori View Post
I believe even before there was mention that one of the directors for the macross series (Plus? Can't remember) even went on airforce carrier to get his stuff confirmed. Can't remember if that was true or not.
Kawamori often consulted with the Japanese Air Defense ministry and the Navy for technical assistance. They have their own consultation team for that matter.

- Tak
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Old 2008-06-22, 20:34   Link #219
Traece
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Well hopefully I can provide SOME closing to this Gundam vs Macross stuff...
Gundam is intended to be mono e mono close quarters battle. Gundams are ultra-powerful mecha units that are one-of-a-kind.
The Variable Fighters in Macross and the fights in Macross are LOTS OF GUYS vs LOTS MORE OF GUYS! Since Macross takes more inspiration from modern air combat it has a face paced style of combat in these larger battlefields. Hence the missile swarm as well because in Gundam you don't launch one-hundred missiles at one highly-powerful, highly-agile piece of machinery. If you can dodge one, who says the other ninety-nine are going to hit?
So simply put:
Gundam is predator vs prey kind of stuff. The Gundam units are intended to go in and show off their ultra-powerfullness by proceeding to mow down tens of enemy mechs...
Macross is fleet vs fleet kind of stuff. The Variable Fighters are intended to fly around at high-speeds gunning down enemy fighters (or fighter-like things..) and launch tons of missiles to kill tons of enemy fighters (or fighter-like things..).
You guys are sort of comparing two different types of intended combat, and sort of in the wrong place. No offense to anyone. You have to remember, it's hard to compare things that are entirely different due to intention.
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Old 2008-06-22, 21:22   Link #220
Wesley84
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The Variable Fighters in Macross and the fights in Macross are LOTS OF GUYS vs LOTS MORE OF GUYS! Since Macross takes more inspiration from modern air combat it has a face paced style of combat in these larger battlefields.

Macross is fleet vs fleet kind of stuff. The Variable Fighters are intended to fly around at high-speeds gunning down enemy fighters (or fighter-like things..) and launch tons of missiles to kill tons of enemy fighters (or fighter-like things..).
You guys are sort of comparing two different types of intended combat, and sort of in the wrong place. No offense to anyone. You have to remember, it's hard to compare things that are entirely different due to intention.
Hasn't really held true for Frontier so far has it? Neither numbers or fleet combat. A very narrow view of combat, seen mostly through Alto's cockpit.
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