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Old 2008-08-28, 11:39   Link #20041
whiter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Var View Post
But its not an instinct to seek death. It is a desire, it is selfishness. Just like seeking life is selfishness. Someone who kills to survive is for all intents and purposes guilty and evil, unless the situation is one where he is being attacked. Someone seeking death has nothing to lose, everything to gain from their selfishness.
As I said, instict is a greater desire for something that is formed by your genes and experiences, and you've yet to shoot it down.
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Old 2008-08-28, 11:40   Link #20042
Ruvixur
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Originally Posted by Var View Post
Probably would be for the best...



Well the debate stems from the idea that giving C.C. mortality but leaving her memories, gives her everything on a silver platter. Which is not something CG is known for, and would step on the corpses of several dead characters.
uhhh.. it seems that debate right now is whether C.C is evil or not. And is Geass evil or not.
Somehow topic changed to this from " C.C. staying mortal and C.C ".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Var View Post
Actually, there are good hints to suggest that the people who burned her were the people in the same village that she (C.C.) and C.C. (the Nun who was then C.C.) lived in.
N, what I mean is that they "killed her" because of her immortality. Not because she used Geass on them. They didn't know it.
Oh, and does Geass effect fades when user becomes immortal/dies? I actually doubt it. Isn't Geass "just" a change in brain?
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Old 2008-08-28, 11:40   Link #20043
Orga777
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Originally Posted by whiter View Post
Read all my previous arguments about this case please.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...ostcount=19987
lol... lol... That is some of the most contrived crap I ever heard. But for fun, lets go through it.

Quote:
In a thought spot you create a plot to increase you'r chances to survive. Just because of the instict. Simple as that. I won't even bother arguing something like this anymore
Okay kids, lets learn the meaning of instinct.

Instinct
1. an inborn pattern of activity or tendency to action common to a given biological species.

2. a natural or innate impulse, inclination, or tendency.

Now, lets look at plotting.

Plotting
1. a secret plan or scheme to accomplish some purpose, esp. a hostile, unlawful, or evil purpose: a plot to overthrow the government.

2. Also called storyline. the plan, scheme, or main story of a literary or dramatic work, as a play, novel, or short story.

3. a list, timetable, or scheme dealing with any of the various arrangements for the production of a play, motion picture, etc.: According to the property plot, there should be a lamp stage left.

Can you see the difference now? Instinct is all natural. If you have a PLAN there is no nature involved. That takes a higher level of thinking than just instinct. You plot because you WANT something. Nothing more.

Quote:
Giving a power doesn't inevitabily mean that a disaster will occur. That's a simple fact. The very same aplies to geass. The village won't nessescarily get wiped out. It's only possibility, it's a %, a chance... As I've stated many times: You can't find ought from is, meaning: You can't say how things are ought to be/turn out by just seeing how things are..
Except that is false here. Geass is all about causing pain, anguish, sorrow, death, and destruction. Seriously, have you watched the show? Even Charles wants to destroy Geass because of what it does in the end. Even says it is the pain of the world.
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Old 2008-08-28, 11:43   Link #20044
Arabesque
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Selfishness with an intention of getting what you want, all others be damned, is evil. That is what C.C. did, she sought her death with no concern for how many people she stepped on. That is evil.
Are you talking about the wish to be loved or the wish to be dead?

If it was the wish to be loved then she had no clue that she was forcing people to love her. Judging from what we saw, her mentality wasn't on the level where she thought ''I'm forcing people aginst there will''. That doesn't mean she was right in what she has done, it was wrong, howeever she didn't have the intent to harm anyone, unlike Lelouch.

If it was about the wish to be dead, then yes she gave the Geass, however other than Mao, Lelouch and Marianne were the only two whom we know C.C. gave the Geass to, and they seemed pretty happy with it (well, not for Lelouch, at least not now). We dont know why Mao was given the geass in the first place (was he part of the cult and then ran away with C.C.? Did she find him by random?I remember reading once that C.C. gave the Geass under certin conditions. Was he related to some one she knew? We dont know much about Mao becuse every one forgot him, so we may never know).
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Old 2008-08-28, 11:43   Link #20045
whiter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Var View Post
But its not an instinct to seek death. It is a desire, it is selfishness. Just like seeking life is selfishness. Someone who kills to survive is for all intents and purposes guilty and evil, unless the situation is one where he is being attacked. Someone seeking death has nothing to lose, everything to gain from their selfishness.
One who's seeking death has a lot to loose. Even if it's not dirrectly loosing, suffering past time could have been time where you didn't suffer. You lost the future with out suffering, even if it means dying, and even though it's ironic.
Hence there's something to loose.
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Old 2008-08-28, 11:44   Link #20046
Var
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Originally Posted by whiter View Post
As I said, instict is a greater desire for something that is formed by your genes and experiences, and you've yet to shoot it down.
Ugh. Pretty sure I did before, but here, let's do it again:
A desire is something one wants for themselves, even if it reaches a level where that desire becomes 'instinctual', it is still at its core a desire. In the case of C.C. it is a selfish desire. It is something sculpted by the conciousness, and therein, is not an instinct as conciousness would imply cognitive thought in the process, where an instict forgoes thought and simply acts. The very fact that she was able to go against her desire to die, means that it was not an instinct.

Whereas, on the other hand, an actual instinct in its truest form, such as the instinct a body has to survive, is not influenced by a person's thoughts. If the body triggers this instinct then it will do whatever it can to survive. There is no free will when instinct is involved.

Do you know what happens when someone commits suicide? Their body begins to panic and they die from the shock. This is a desire fighting and instinct but the instinct always kicks in.
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Old 2008-08-28, 11:44   Link #20047
Ruvixur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
.

Except that is false here. Geass is all about causing pain, anguish, sorrow, death, and destruction. Seriously, have you watched the show? Even Charles wants to destroy Geass because of what it does in the end. Even says it is the pain of the world.
Where does he says so? He wants to destroy lies, not Geass. Geass would be the truth, which people don't know. Geass is a tool to oppose God/fate/destiny/blablathisiscrap.
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Old 2008-08-28, 11:44   Link #20048
Kusa-San
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Uh CC is evil because she used her geass on people just to be loved O_o Uh it's not that easy. Don't tell me you're really think what you're saying ? CC has indeed do "bad" thing but that's not make her evil. An if CC was so evil why Lelouch help her then in ep 15 ? So no CC is not evil. CC just want to be loved that's all.
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Old 2008-08-28, 11:47   Link #20049
Arabesque
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruvixur View Post
Where does he says so? He wants to destroy lies, not Geass. Geass would be the truth, which people don't know. Geass is a tool to oppose God/fate/destiny/blablathisiscrap.
What? When did he ever say that? All what he wants is to kill the ''gods'' and create a world with no lies and is using the Geass to do so. He never said that it will be the truth of the world.
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Old 2008-08-28, 11:47   Link #20050
Ruvixur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kusa-San View Post
Uh CC is evil because she used her geass on people just to be loved O_o Uh it's not that easy. Don't tell me you're really think what you're saying ? CC has indeed do "bad" thing but that's not make her evil. An if CC was so evil why Lelouch help her then in ep 15 ? So no CC is not evil. CC just want to be loved that's all.
Because he is also evil. And he is weak against girls, even though he is dumb concerning feelings.
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Old 2008-08-28, 11:47   Link #20051
Orga777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kusa-San View Post
Uh CC is evil because she used her geass on people just to be loved O_o Uh it's not that easy. Don't tell me you're really think what you're saying ? CC has indeed do "bad" thing but that's not make her evil. An if CC was so evil why Lelouch help her then in ep 15 ? So no CC is not evil. CC just want to be loved that's all.
Bull. manipulating people for yourself is still manipulating people for yourself. No matter what the cause or the reason. You take away others will to decide and that is the most basic right any human has.
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Old 2008-08-28, 11:48   Link #20052
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And the rapist is not evil. The rapist only wants to get laid, that's all...
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Old 2008-08-28, 11:48   Link #20053
Var
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
Are you talking about the wish to be loved or the wish to be dead?

If it was the wish to be loved then she had no clue that she was forcing people to love her. Judging from what we saw, her mentality wasn't on the level where she thought ''I'm forcing people aginst there will''. That doesn't mean she was right in what she has done, it was wrong, howeever she didn't have the intent to harm anyone, unlike Lelouch.

If it was about the wish to be dead, then yes she gave the Geass, however other than Mao, Lelouch and Marianne were the only two whom we know C.C. gave the Geass to, and they seemed pretty happy with it (well, not for Lelouch, at least not now). We dont know why Mao was given the geass in the first place (was he part of the cult and then ran away with C.C.? Did she find him by random?I remember reading once that C.C. gave the Geass under certin conditions. Was he related to some one she knew? We dont know much about Mao becuse every one forgot him, so we may never know).
Technically both are evil in this C.C..

If we are talking about the young C.C. who was given Geass, then she is not 'evil' persay. She did wrong things but she was a child with little understanding. She was, like Lelouch, being exploited by the C.C. of that era. She is guilty, but not nearly as much as the one withholding the truth.
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Old 2008-08-28, 11:50   Link #20054
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
lol... lol... That is some of the most contrived crap I ever heard. But for fun, lets go through it.



Okay kids, lets learn the meaning of instinct.

Instinct
1. an inborn pattern of activity or tendency to action common to a given biological species.

2. a natural or innate impulse, inclination, or tendency.
If that were to be the case, one should never loose his instict to live, because you make any modifications on genes at all, hence it fails.


Quote:
Except that is false here. Geass is all about causing pain, anguish, sorrow, death, and destruction. Seriously, have you watched the show? Even Charles wants to destroy Geass because of what it does in the end. Even says it is the pain of the world.
Even if Charles wats to destroy geass, even if the show has implied that geass is all about sorrow 'n stuff. "As things have been, it doesn't mean they must inevitabily follow the same pattern. You can't find "ought" from "is".
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Old 2008-08-28, 11:50   Link #20055
Ruvixur
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Originally Posted by Arabesque View Post
What? When did he ever say that? All what he wants is to kill the ''gods'' and create a world with no lies and is using the Geass to do so. He never said that it will be the truth of the world.
Just my assumption. Because Geass can kill Gods and oppose them it's certainly closer to truth that the normal world without Geass, in which lives most of people in Code Geass universe.
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Old 2008-08-28, 11:50   Link #20056
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Originally Posted by Meatrose View Post
And the rapist is not evil. The rapist only wants to get laid, that's all...
yep.....
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Old 2008-08-28, 11:51   Link #20057
Franckisted
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Originally Posted by Orga777 View Post
Bull. manipulating people for yourself is still manipulating people for yourself. No matter what the cause or the reason. You take away others will to decide and that is the most basic right any human has.

If so, Nunnaly is EVIL because she was being selfish and manipulating her brother ( back in S1) so he could be near her.
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Old 2008-08-28, 11:52   Link #20058
Orga777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiter View Post
If that were to be the case, one should never loose his instict to live, because you make any modifications on genes at all, hence it fails.
Did you read what Var said above?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Var
Do you know what happens when someone commits suicide? Their body begins to panic and they die from the shock. This is a desire fighting and instinct but the instinct always kicks in.
Thank you, and good night.

Quote:
Even if Charles wats to destroy geass, even if the show has implied that geass is all about sorrow 'n stuff. "As things have been, it doesn't mean they must inevitabily follow the same pattern. You can't find "ought" from "is".
Has there been ONE except for someone to NOT suffer because of Geass? No? Didn't think so.
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Old 2008-08-28, 11:52   Link #20059
Var
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Originally Posted by Ruvixur View Post
Just my assumption. Because Geass can kill Gods and oppose them it's certainly closer to truth that the normal world without Geass, in which lives most of people in Code Geass universe.
Geass, in being able to destroy the 'gods', has to have been created by those gods. This is like the Greek pantheon, the only way to defeat a god is by their own devices. There is no other explanation as to the source of Geass, anyway.
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Old 2008-08-28, 11:53   Link #20060
Var
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Originally Posted by Franckisted View Post
If so, Nunnaly is EVIL because she was being selfish and manipulating her brother ( back in S1) so he could be near her.
She was not taking away his free will. He could always slap her and say no. The people under C.C.'s Geass had no choice.
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