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Old 2011-11-20, 19:49   Link #701
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flere821 View Post
Explainable and logical, even if story-wise it's provides a convenient excuse for the protagonist to never get one-hit-killed without a way to fight back. eg, Touma's not going to be able to fight a SWAT team armed to the teeth, let alone win. That's supporting cast characters are for.
Well technically he was chased by Hound Dog mercs, Skill-Out thugs, as well as a full squad of Anti-Skill officers once so it's not like he does have any experience with guns... He just doesn't confront them head on.
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Old 2011-11-20, 22:17   Link #702
SilverSyko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leukrota View Post
C'mon, it's fiction. Why does magic have to be scientific?

Along with other arguments you're doing, it seems that you don't like Index cause it's different from One Piece in structure and narrative... where's the originality you where asking for if the author has to copy those things?
It doesn't have to be, it just makes sense for "magic" to be science. Ever hear the term "magic of science"?

I believe content itself is what gauges originality, not the way it's written and/or presented. How many other manga series' do you know that are about seafaring pirates for example?


Quote:
The fact of the matter is Touma doesn't have any goals expect to live a happy and normal life and keep those he is close to safe. And you know, there's nother wrong with that.

Its the same with several of the other characters - they just want to live their lives peacefully. That is their goal.
It's not a very interesting goal then, as it pretty much goes without saying. Why is this series a battle manga if there's no adventure to it all? It might as well be a slice-of-life. Not to mention this is usually always a theme presented in various series.


Quote:
What a strange statement to make - I'm sure it was discussed in the very frist chapter that Touma's an Esper and therefore him having an abilty shouldn't be anything too strange.

Basically, the idea of him having this abilty in a city where people go through a course to develop supernatural abilities should naturally lead to the conclusion that he got the abilty that way.
I seem to recall Touma stating that he WASN'T a Psychic, and that his rank was 0. Which leads me to believe that his Imagine Breaker is not a normal ability and therefore has a different origin.

You can have mysteries, but I don't think how he obtained this ability should be one of them. (Unless he was just born with it, in which case, fine.)


Quote:
Author's goal was to check how OUR world would look and work if Espers and Magicians existed. The whole point is that everything happens in a world almost identical to ours. Not to mention that majority of existing stories happen in our world anyway.
Hm, you do make a good point here. I just figured an original world would allow for the series to be a little more imaginative. It's fiction after all so why not go all out?


Quote:
Silversyko: i think to aru world and story is not your thing..... well...i think you are just another "sentiment" good natured #ehem# hater who didn't like to aru in the first place.... comparing to aru with one piece was ridiculous.., but i admit it to aru had some plot hole in the story but that wasn't too big. and To aru isn't "all favorite" manga, anime type like one piece, naruto etc.
To be honest, very early on I did shrug it off as a rather nonsensical harem series with some action (As that's what light novel series usually tend to be from my experience). Now, from some convincing words from someone else and that I've actually checked it out for myself, I will say it's not as bad as I originally believed.


Quote:
So you thought it would be best to read the worst adaptation that is called Index Manga?

Genius.

And using One Piece as a better example? What a scholar.
I knew the manga was an adaptation too. Just that from personal experience manga adaptations are usually much better than anime ones, and judging from what I have heard here, that is true for this series.

Also, next time try actually contributing something to the debate rather than insult my intelligence with sarcasm.

And I know you like One Piece too, so you don't have much room to talk mate.


Quote:
And Touma can be hurt, just that he was lucky (heh, the irony) enough to never meet the paper that beats his rock. Against guns or tech weapons by himself and he's pretty much toast since Imagine Breaker doesn't stop non-supernatural things.
Yeah, I remember the fight he had with the swordswoman character. (Forget her name.) Since she didn't use magic or psionics, she was a foe that Touma had trouble fighting.

I am just mostly under the impression that not very many enemies in the series will fight with weapons or martial arts, since magic and science are the main themes.


Anyway, I notice I am a little at fault for comparing it to One Piece. I guess just because something is the same genre I shouldn't have the same expectations. Mostly when I think of a "shounen battle manga" I think of an adventure, but this series isn't like that.

I'm contemplating switching over to the light novel, cause while I will really miss the cool fight scenes the manga has, if it's actually skipping entire volumes of the original story then it's probably not the best choice.

No guarantee about that though. Like I said I find it very difficult to get into novels in general.
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Old 2011-11-20, 22:29   Link #703
Marcus H.
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^ Actually, I doubt Index can be considered to be truly shounen. The explanation of concepts drags it into the territory of seinen, although the classification might be different between light novels and manga series.

On the difficulty of reading light novels, I guess you're not into written literature. Just give it a try and flex your brain muscles a bit. I myself have a relatively easy time reading the novels because I'm quite experienced in fantasy.
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Old 2011-11-20, 23:42   Link #704
julioalqae
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Spoiler for haaah:
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Old 2011-11-21, 00:49   Link #705
~Greed~
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
I knew the manga was an adaptation too. Just that from personal experience manga adaptations are usually much better than anime ones, and judging from what I have heard here, that is true for this series.
I'm pretty sure that just about anyone will tell you that the anime is better than the manga. The manga is mediocre at best.
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Old 2011-11-21, 02:19   Link #706
leukrota
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@julioalqae - Chill... there's no need to flame the guy.
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Old 2011-11-21, 03:21   Link #707
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Greed~ View Post
I'm pretty sure that just about anyone will tell you that the anime is better than the manga. The manga is mediocre at best.
I would argue this point- I don't have to point out the difference between how Touma got hit by the feather in the Anime as compared to the Manga do I?

I have a feeling people's perceptions are being influenced by nothing more than the fact that this is the 3rd adaptation they've seen of the same story... Even though technically the Manga came first before the Anime.


-------------------------------------------------

@SilverSyko


I didn't want to say anything because Ashaman took the words out of my mouth. But to repeat what he had said- You're restricting yourself too much by comparing this to One-Piece. While it's normal to refer to something you're familiar with, it's meant to be used as a rough yard stick, and not some kind of International standard for judging. There are more than one formula to success and not every story uses a standard model.... Especially if they're not trying to do the same thing.

If all you want is a clone of One-Piece then I would recommend [Fairy Tail] to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
It doesn't have to be, it just makes sense for "magic" to be science. Ever hear the term "magic of science"?

I believe content itself is what gauges originality, not the way it's written and/or presented. How many other manga series' do you know that are about seafaring pirates for example?
That's irrelevant, the Author's intention IS to show the difference between the teachings of Sciences and the teachings of Magic, and not to mix them together.

How many series do you know makes that distinction? And no, Magitech doesn't count because it does mix the two system.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
It's not a very interesting goal then, as it pretty much goes without saying. Why is this series a battle manga if there's no adventure to it all? It might as well be a slice-of-life. Not to mention this is usually always a theme presented in various series.
Remember when I told you this wasn't a very action-y story?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Not to mention this is usually always a theme presented in various series.
Like how the theme of being the strongest *insert profession* is presented in various series?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
I seem to recall Touma stating that he WASN'T a Psychic, and that his rank was 0. Which leads me to believe that his Imagine Breaker is not a normal ability and therefore has a different origin.

You can have mysteries, but I don't think how he obtained this ability should be one of them. (Unless he was just born with it, in which case, fine.)
He was born with it- But in the past his bad luck used to be so severe that it affected everyone around him- Someone had once attempted to take his life because of it. His parents decided to send him to Academy City because it's a place of Science that doesn't believe in Superstition.

It wasn't yet revealed how or why, but after he came to Academy City his bad luck stopped affecting others and is one focused on himself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
Hm, you do make a good point here. I just figured an original world would allow for the series to be a little more imaginative. It's fiction after all so why not go all out?
Because it's unnecessary when you want to refer to mythology of this world. What does the Egyptian or Norse Gods have to do with a brand new world? What does Angels and the teachings of God have to do with it? Aleister Crowley's cult of Thelema? Lost Soviet Nuclear weapons? The Legend of Saint George and the Dragon? It's completely unnecessary.

And I would argue that trying to conform to the modern world is more challenging because you have to work within several restrictions- People were already having a hard time accepting the Churchs to be all powerful- while creating a brand new world is easier because it allows more for asspull if necessary.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post

I'm contemplating switching over to the light novel, cause while I will really miss the cool fight scenes the manga has, if it's actually skipping entire volumes of the original story then it's probably not the best choice.
The reason why the manga skipped vol 2 and 4 was because at that time they didn't know whether they would continue to publish it.

Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2011-11-21 at 03:40.
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Old 2011-11-21, 06:11   Link #708
I_am_Kami
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post



I knew the manga was an adaptation too. Just that from personal experience manga adaptations are usually much better than anime ones, and judging from what I have heard here, that is true for this series.

Also, next time try actually contributing something to the debate rather than insult my intelligence with sarcasm.

And I know you like One Piece too, so you don't have much room to talk mate.
Lolwut? Where do you get this idea?(better not be my MAL list) I read it and the other Big 3 like a habit. I don't drop them cuz they aren't Hitman Reborn level of bore. Fairy Tail is that level and I am surprised I haven't dropped the mother.

And NO the manga is NOT the better adaptation. It skipped two freakin arcs. One having my favorite scene from the series.

*spoiler for you*
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Old 2011-11-21, 06:27   Link #709
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
And NO the manga is NOT the better adaptation. It skipped two freakin arcs. One having my favorite scene from the series.
As I've mentioned before, it's not like they wanted to skip them -_-
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Old 2011-11-21, 12:51   Link #710
Breidaluk
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You know, we should really stop with this topic. It's causing a lot of discussion. Anyway @Silverkyo, just read the novel+manga+anime and them you discuss with us.

Really. This is starting to get annoying. And we should be discussing about the new chapter.
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Old 2011-11-21, 13:16   Link #711
Acer
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Probably the only new chapters will be translated after the ninth volume of the manga out, it is better for me, because some chapters in volumes usually come with more pages, had the case of chapter 44 that came with almost 10 pages longer.
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Old 2011-11-21, 13:56   Link #712
Breidaluk
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Comparing with the Railgun manga this one is actually going faster.
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Old 2011-11-21, 16:48   Link #713
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Breidaluk View Post
You know, we should really stop with this topic. It's causing a lot of discussion. Anyway @Silverkyo, just read the novel+manga+anime and them you discuss with us.

Really. This is starting to get annoying. And we should be discussing about the new chapter.

Isn't that the whole point of a forum?
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Old 2011-11-21, 17:16   Link #714
I_am_Kami
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Yup.

This is great so keep arguing. ALMOST makes me miss the arguments of Railgun vs Index.

And OH MY GOD THE MISAKA ARGUMENTS!
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Old 2011-11-22, 06:27   Link #715
tsunade666
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Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
Yup.

This is great so keep arguing. ALMOST makes me miss the arguments of Railgun vs Index.

And OH MY GOD THE MISAKA ARGUMENTS!
Oh please don't remind oh Please!!!

And One piece is Shounen while I consider Index as Seinen and maybe Railgun a Slice of life
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Old 2011-11-25, 11:50   Link #716
larethian
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Index is pretty shounen to me.
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Old 2011-12-01, 02:23   Link #717
SilverSyko
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I'm back.~ Just needed a few days breather.

Quote:
On the difficulty of reading light novels, I guess you're not into written literature. Just give it a try and flex your brain muscles a bit.
Not exactly. I just tend to find mediums with accompanying visuals to be more entertaining and easier to take an interest in.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
You're restricting yourself too much by comparing this to One-Piece. While it's normal to refer to something you're familiar with, it's meant to be used as a rough yard stick, and not some kind of International standard for judging. There are more than one formula to success and not every story uses a standard model.... Especially if they're not trying to do the same thing.

If all you want is a clone of One-Piece then I would recommend [Fairy Tail] to you.
It's not that simple. What I want to see is a shounen manga series with an original adventurous premise that is emotional, intense, deep, imaginative, well-written and includes characters that are brimming with humanity, ambitions, a drive to overcome difficult obstacles to achieve those ambitions and shows their struggle to do so.

This is what I was judging Index by. Since it's classified as a shounen even though it's more of a seinen, my expectations were completely different, resulting in my disappointment.

So yeah, as a shounen battle manga, Index doesn't do a very good job.

(Oh and I already tried Fairy Tail. It's not as good as One Piece. That's all I'll say.)


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Remember when I told you this wasn't a very action-y story?
I thought you meant a lack of fighting scenes. I guess that clears things up.


Quote:
Like how the theme of being the strongest *insert profession* is presented in various series?
Only, One Piece's theme isn't Luffy wanting to be "the strongest pirate ever". He wants to be the "Pirate King". It means something totally different to him.


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Because it's unnecessary when you want to refer to mythology of this world. What does the Egyptian or Norse Gods have to do with a brand new world? What does Angels and the teachings of God have to do with it? Aleister Crowley's cult of Thelema? Lost Soviet Nuclear weapons? The Legend of Saint George and the Dragon? It's completely unnecessary.
It's not imaginative though. It's just using already existing mythologies and current human knowledge and building a concept and plot around it all.

Creating a whole new world from scratch and giving it it's own mythologies, history and technology shows a lot more effort and imagination to me, and therefore I have larger respect for them.


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Lolwut? Where do you get this idea?
A post you made in the General Anime board on this forum earlier this year. I can link you to it if you don't believe me.~


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And NO the manga is NOT the better adaptation. It skipped two freakin arcs.
I don't really approve of skipping story elements, but from what I heard here, the anime isn't all graphic and bloody during the fight scenes like the manga is. I'm not impressed when an anime censors that kind of stuff, It's not like it's inappropriate to show on television.
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Old 2011-12-01, 10:19   Link #718
Nayrael
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Kamijou Touma has no goal as his character is supposed to be Mr. Perfect (he is like Shanks from OP, Kakashi and 4th Hokage from Naruto, etc... an ideal hero whom are other characters look up to... just that this time he is the main character) so don't even compare him to usual main characters as he is not supposed to be like them.
However, the other two protagonists, Accelerator and Hamazura, have goals and a lot character development and practically have to face the impossible to make their goals come true.

Quote:
It's not imaginative though. It's just using already existing mythologies and current human knowledge and building a concept and plot around it all.

Creating a whole new world from scratch and giving it it's own mythologies, history and technology shows a lot more effort and imagination to me, and therefore I have larger respect for them.
But what the author wanted to create was NOT a fictional world. What he wanted was to make magic real and try to create a world that is replica of ours with added magic and see how it would affect it. Than he added Espers to see how the world would look if you have Magicians and Espers in it. He did not decide to not create a fictional world because he thought it was hard or something but because he didn't want to. It was not a part of his vision.
You can see here some of his goals.

I myself LOVE Fantasy and fictional worlds and I myself have created my own fictional world and many stories in it. But I find the work that Kamachi did here very beautiful and can't but be pissed off by your attitude. In some ways, fictional worlds make the job easier than using our world.
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Old 2011-12-01, 10:33   Link #719
julioalqae
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silversyko : i don't think we can change your mind, make argument comparison between ONE PIECE and index will be no good. well i guess you just try telling us HOW much you like One piece in index manga thread, somehow it make me pissed off....., one piece is great masterpiece and i admit it buuut when you compare it with another series with different type and genre of story seem out of place...
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Old 2011-12-01, 15:25   Link #720
leukrota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSyko View Post
It's not imaginative though. It's just using already existing mythologies and current human knowledge and building a concept and plot around it all.

Creating a whole new world from scratch and giving it it's own mythologies, history and technology shows a lot more effort and imagination to me, and therefore I have larger respect for them.
Wow, you just invalidated at least 90% of Literature Nobel Prize authors...

You see, building on the real world doesn't necessarily mean it's less original than a fantasy world. There's a lot of fiction that's really, really imaginative, that builds up from the reality.

If you'll only consider examples form anime/manga, take Code Geass, Baccano or Steins' Gate (just form the top of my head, there's a lot more.) Those works all start with the real world and adjust it to their convenience, and manage to show us something great.

Suppose you have 200 hours to make a story. You could spend 180 hours making a world and 20 on the story, or spend 20 choosing what to use from the real world and use 180 on the story. Odds are (if you are a half decent writer) that you'll come up with a good world and a cliche story using the first option, or functional world with a good story using the second.

Index's author has put a lot of work on his novels, but you won't find it if you're looking in the wrong place.

Anyway... it's a shame you use such limited criteria, but there's nothing that can be done about it. It's now obvious to me that Index is definitely not your thing, from what you say I think you're looking for something like Tengen Toppa Gurren Laggan, which IMO is highly overrated, but you'll probably love it (if you haven't seen it yet.)

If by any chance, you're willing to step a bit out of your comfort zone, I'd recommend Baccano for you. It's a very interesting story from the adventure genre. The "downside" is that it's a Seinen on a reality based world, so it might be too unoriginal from your point of view. But for sure, drop Index, you would just be wasting your time since you won't be able to appreciate it.

Last edited by leukrota; 2011-12-01 at 16:55. Reason: Took out a borderline example.
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