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View Poll Results: Code Geass R2 - Episode 12 Rating
Perfect 10 138 42.07%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 61 18.60%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 52 15.85%
7 out of 10 : Good 29 8.84%
6 out of 10 : Average 18 5.49%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 8 2.44%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 0.91%
3 out of 10 : Bad 3 0.91%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 2 0.61%
1 out of 10 : Painful 14 4.27%
Voters: 328. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-07-01, 15:49   Link #901
Makoto_Must_DIE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnnamedPhenemenom View Post
Have you seen Lelouch sleep at night yet since the Euphie incident? Anime's usualy don't show the bags under the eyes of characters unless it's an important plot point or it is an important character trait. I wouldn't be surprised if he was really an insomniac.
Rollo makes sure that his 'onii-chan' gets enough sleep at night.
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Old 2008-07-01, 16:04   Link #902
m1thril
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
She can decide whether or not she wants to know? how does she decide she WANTS to know the horrible truth without TELLING her the horrible truth... and you can't hide it from her as she would still have found out eventually (not knowing is not even an option for her)... she can make decisions on what she wants to do after she knows the truth, but before that she is rendered unable to make her own decision as she is unable to know the consequences of her decisions... Even her father's mind wipe would be useless as the world would always remind her


So basically do EXACTLY what she was gonna do before... her calling that her redemption would be like her admitting the the first time was nothing more than a trap... normally you try to do MORE in life than you did before to redeem yourself...

and having the geass revealed would not erase the people's feelings as their would always be the lingering feeling hatred and mistrust. Hell, even if you proved the geass existence, some may refuse to believe that Euphie was under it's control saying that the whole "Geass thing" was nothing more than a false reason to excuse her actions (like anytime somebody does something bad, they say "they were under a geass" as a defence)... even zero admitting he did it would be received by many as "he is just trying to protect her"
my main point of euphie deciding whether or not she wants to know what happened is that LL doesn't have to tell her jack shit unless she asks for it.

and how does trying to accomplish the same thing as before admitting that it was a trap? it just admits that the first one failed epically. as for the whole geass thing...it would be euphie's problem to regain the trust of the people. i'm sure she's creative enough to solve that problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by praeceps View Post
What's with the arguement that Lelouch killing Ephie was the easy way out? It was in fact the only way out. It wasn't a matter of Euphie dealing with what she did. It was a matter of how she was geassed to kill all the Japanese so she wouldn't have stopped killing them. It was either kill her or allow her to attempt to kill everyone who had even a hint of Japanese blood in them.

He didn't kill her to help her, he killed her to save the Japanese people.
there are alternatives...ie disable her and bind her...it's just not as efficient as killing her
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Old 2008-07-01, 16:45   Link #903
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I think killing Euphie was the only choice because even though she's blind she can curse at japanese or she can try hitting them but she will miss. So she is still dangerous.
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Old 2008-07-01, 17:03   Link #904
iBeast
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Originally Posted by SkoolRumble4Ya View Post
I think killing Euphie was the only choice because even though she's blind she can curse at japanese or she can try hitting them but she will miss. So she is still dangerous.
Uhh what?.......
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Old 2008-07-01, 17:14   Link #905
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Originally Posted by SkoolRumble4Ya View Post
I think killing Euphie was the only choice because even though she's blind she can curse at japanese or she can try hitting them but she will miss. So she is still dangerous.
If sh survived and was blind. The geass affecting her most likely wouldn't have activated, unless she knew she was talking to a Japanese person. Plus, I'm prertty sure Cornelia would have taken her out of Area 11 as soon a possible and return to the mainland or somewhere else that was safe.
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Old 2008-07-01, 17:14   Link #906
orangejuicetang
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Originally Posted by SkoolRumble4Ya View Post
I think killing Euphie was the only choice because even though she's blind she can curse at japanese or she can try hitting them but she will miss. So she is still dangerous.
um... I think that blind one is Nunually, but I don't think that Nunually was the one geassed into killing the Japanese by Lelouch, since she's blind and plus almost the entire reason for Lelouch's fighting.
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Old 2008-07-01, 17:15   Link #907
demon_god04
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I think he misread bind for blind...
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Old 2008-07-01, 17:23   Link #908
SkoolRumble4Ya
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
I think he misread bind for blind...
My point was if Zero decided to let Euphie live by making her blind she can still cause harm to anybody that she thinks is japanese.
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Old 2008-07-01, 17:25   Link #909
bladeofdarkness
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killing euphie was the only choice
it wasnt even murder
at that point it was putting her out of her misery
and it was still probably the most painful thing he had to do (when he ordered the OOBK to find and kill her he was crying)
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Old 2008-07-01, 17:28   Link #910
demon_god04
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Originally Posted by SkoolRumble4Ya View Post
My point was if Zero decided to let Euphie live by making her blind she can still cause harm to anybody that she thinks is japanese.
ah, sorry I miss interpreted you.

Still, Lelouch didn't kill Euphie just for her own good or anything like that, he said he was going to use her now that it has come to this and shooting her was his way of taking responsibility, as well as to use the incident to make himself appear as the hero who stopped the massacre princess.
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Old 2008-07-01, 17:43   Link #911
Torri_fay_torren@hot
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You don't get to decide if it's unbearable. Neither do I or Lelouch or Suzaku or Cornelia. The only one who has the legitimacy for it was Euphemia herself. Lelouch robbed her of that chance, too.
Well I got to say that that is true




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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I don't advocate a painless option. Heck, I can respect that Lelouch decided the cause was more important than her life. But if he'd acted for Euphemia, then he should have let her take the pain and recover. That's life..
But that's just it though, He had to save the revolution and so he did what he thought was the only way. The fact of the matter is, as soon as Euphi killed the japanese people all of her plans for peace were gone. Once everyone knew about the massicure (thanks in part to deithard ) The revolt began all around Japan. There was no stopping it. The whole "the geass made me do it "argument would have gone over as well as a seriel killer pleading insanity.
The wave was started the only thing Zero could do at that point was ride the wave and try to steer it. He couldn't stop it.

With that in mind what would have happened to Euphi? Well everybody was going to try and kill her for lying to them. And it is obvious that she would suffer greatly. Zero chose to end her suffering himself. He did not allow her to suffer more for his accident. It's very true that that wasn't his descision to make. But it was the most mercyful thing he could do under the circumstances.

Also who was it that said that that was the easy way out? That was not an easy choice for him to make. I remeber him crying afterwards and have a little break down because of it. Also after that he goes a little off the deep end after that saying something thing like " Even Euphi is dead no matter what I have to keep going."It goes right along with his thinking "But despite the peole who have died NO because of it I have to presurve." I think he said something like this on the episode that shirley's dad died. That was not easy for him to do and one of the reasons he is fighting is so that euphi's death wont be meaningless..[/QUOTE]




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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
There is a major difference with what he did to Euphie: he didn't kill Shirley. He allowed her to live a happy life, despite the tragic loss of her father. Those actions aren't comparable...
True
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Even so... Just look at his own reaction at Charles' manipulations. Not "hey, cool, I can have a carefree student life" or even "well, at least my friends are well out of it", but "I'm going to kill him for what he did". ..
But Zero saved Shirley from going insane. And it wasn't just her fathers death and almost killing someone and finding out about Zero. Here mind had ben completly messed with by Mao. It was probubly the only way to help her. And afterwards she still has time to work through her issues.
Charles took all of his memories of his sister away from him. He didn't remeber his own sister. Also he didn't even remeber the whole thing about his mother. Bieng royalty and basically half of his life was taken away. It was not to help him but to trap C.C. Completly differn't senorios. Zero only took away the memories pertaning to him and Zero. He didn't make her forget she even had a father.


Quote:
Originally Posted by m1thril View Post
and how does trying to accomplish the same thing as before admitting that it was a trap? it just admits that the first one failed epically. as for the whole geass thing...it would be euphie's problem to regain the trust of the people. i'm sure she's creative enough to solve that problem
How was she supposed to fix it by bieng clever! Her killing a bunch of people was broad casted over the entire world for gosh sakes. I just can't think of anything she could have phesibly done. It wasn't her fault. She shouldn't have to redeem herself. The fact is there wasn't anything she could have done to save the situation.
I think your main problem with this whole thing is that you don't like the fact that Zero took away Euphi's choice. That's makes since. If it was you then you would have liked to know. You would have liked to fix things am I right? That's only natural. But Zero did not give her that option. He couldn't.

Insteed he had to do what was best for the revolution and that was to use the whole messed up situation to enrage the people into rebeling. He didn't have a whole lot of options. And the rebelion almost worked. The truth of the matter is, Zero made the tough descion, he had to choose between the lesser of two evils. That is War. The only thing he could do was make sure the Euphi wouldn't suffer when she died.

Gosh I really do love the way this anime makes me think. And now I really am getting the symbolism of chess. For I while I hadn't thought about it deeper but in chess you have to make sacrifices. People are not pawns But in wars and for the greater good sacrifices sometimes have to be made. Euphi was the sacrifice. It really sukes though. I cried on that episode.
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Old 2008-07-01, 17:46   Link #912
bladeofdarkness
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People are not pawns But in wars and for the greater good sacrifices sometimes have to be made.
he was willing (didnt have much of a choice) to sacrifice euphie
but that was last season
this time when faced with the same exact logic he wasnt willing to sacrifice kallen
the man changed
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Old 2008-07-01, 18:01   Link #913
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
he was willing (didnt have much of a choice) to sacrifice euphie
but that was last season
this time when faced with the same exact logic he wasnt willing to sacrifice kallen
the man changed
Lulu never sacrificed Euphie. He never wanted to do it.

If Kallen was Geassed into a berserker Lulu would put her down too. The point is Euphie was one of the last people on the planet Lulu is ever willing to kill for anything. And hence the irony; it's exactly because he wasn't ever going to hurt her under normal circumstances that the plot forced him in that direction.

The word "sacrifice" has many meanings. But it does not apply to what happened to Euphie. Killed, yes. But few kills are sacrifices.
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Old 2008-07-01, 18:06   Link #914
Slayerx
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
You don't get to decide if it's unbearable. Neither do I or Lelouch or Suzaku or Cornelia. The only one who has the legitimacy for it was Euphemia herself. Lelouch robbed her of that chance, too.

Your argument is basically that if you think someone's going to face too much pain, it's ok to kill them. You don't even have to ask if they want to be end their lives or anything, you just kill them. "Oh, dear, you're going to spend the rest of your life in a wheelchair? *bang*" "You're disfigured for life? *bang*" "You girlfriend left you? *bang*". Suffice it to say, I disagree with that feeling. Everyday, people face great trials. Sometimes, they overcome them and get on with their lives, scars and all. Unless some self-righteous prick shoots them, I suppose.
"everyday people" do not have to deal with the horror of suddenly becoming mass murders and ordering the genocide of an entire race and potentially living the rest of their lives with the uncontrollable urge to KEEP killing them (and we are talking about a person who was ready to sacrifice her own life to save a citizen)... this is a pain that is NOTHING compared to loosing a girlfriend or ending up in a wheel chair... honestly it's like you are treating genocide on the same level as a lab accident

my argument is about facing a fate worse than death versus death itself... unless you're making the argument that their is no such thing as a fate worse than death...
Quote:
I don't advocate a painless option. Heck, I can respect that Lelouch decided the cause was more important than her life. But if he'd acted for Euphemia, then he should have let her take the pain and recover. That's life.
The funny thing is, you are STILL making a choice for Euphie in a sense... You are in the position to help direct where her life goes. To make NO MOVE is still making a choice. you are CHOOSING to let her take the pain in off chance that she will recover and not go mad

If we are talking about what euphie "might" have wanted, we could also say that she might have never wanted to know and would prefer ignorance in bliss; that she would have prefered dying happy than ever knowing; she may have never wanted to face life knowing what she did... by making "no choice" for her, you make a "Choice" to take away these options since the only way she can take those options is if someone protects her from the truth... it all helps highlight how powerless she was to truly determine her own fate since many of her options are not available to her after she knows...
Quote:
There is a major difference with what he did to Euphie: he didn't kill Shirley. He allowed her to live a happy life, despite the tragic loss of her father. Those actions aren't comparable.
but ofcourse a "happy life" was not an option for euphie...
Euphie and Shirley were both faced with the trial of going through life in pain (though Euphie's was much bigger)... Lulu FORCED Shirley from that life and gave her NO CHOICE to give her a happy life... unfortunately that option was not open to Euphie... the only option that was open to euphie was the same option that Lelouche DENIED Shirley of... a life of pain and remorse. The thing that was causing Shirley the most pain was not her father's death but that fact the man she loved was indirectly responsible and that she "killed"(though unknown to shirely, villetta survived) someone; it was a great number of other things that were causing her real torment, and Lulu erased everything except for her father's death, something he knew she could recover from like any other person (people have to deal with loved ones dying all the time, but no one goes through what shirely did)... though I guess you could say that it is completely alright for Lulu to deny people choices in life and manipulating them all he wants just so long as he doesn't kill them; even if doing nothing results in a face even worse than death.

Really, if the geass could work more than once, Lelouche would have changed her appearance and the geassed her so that she could live a life of a normal britianian; nothing to remind her that she was the princess euphemia that lead a genocide... she'd get to live a normal happy life... Charles could have done this too, but he is not the kind of man that would.

Quote:
The remorse, you mean? Being a lot more responsible for the massacre than Euphie ever was doesn't keep Lelouch from sleeping at night.
Lelouche is a very different person from euphie... euphie was a girl who was heavily against hurting people, especially innocent people; she'd even sacrifice her life for them... Lelouche on the other hand did not hesitate to kill numerous soldiers in front of him, kill his own brother, and lead battles where he knew their would be innocent casualties... Lelouche can deal with it, euphie would not be able to
Quote:
Originally Posted by m1thril View Post
my main point of euphie deciding whether or not she wants to know what happened is that LL doesn't have to tell her jack shit unless she asks for it.
Euphie would have found out whether she wanted to or not as the entire would would be talking about the genocide she led (again, unless you stick her in a bubble and cut her off from the world)

Quote:
and how does trying to accomplish the same thing as before admitting that it was a trap? it just admits that the first one failed epically. as for the whole geass thing...it would be euphie's problem to regain the trust of the people. i'm sure she's creative enough to solve that problem
it's LIKE admitting it... She saying that the new SAZ is how she means to redeem herself is like saying the first one was NOT a geninue attempt towards the SAZ... like she's saying she never intended on things working out as she promised it would... if she is gonna "redeem" herself, she has to do MORE than what she was already doing, and she was already doing everything she could

She could try to help people (which she was doing before), but she would never regain their trust... even knoweldge of the geass might convince some britianians the she was not responcible, but many japanese would not except it as a defence saying that even if such a power does exists, they are lying about her being under it's control... The history records might change, but the people's feelings would not.
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Old 2008-07-01, 18:06   Link #915
Torri_fay_torren@hot
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Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness View Post
he was willing (didnt have much of a choice) to sacrifice euphie
but that was last season
this time when faced with the same exact logic he wasnt willing to sacrifice kallen
the man changed
I think that the whole thing with Euphi was
a lot more complexed compared with Kallens situation. There was still a chance before he got out smarted. Still, I do think he has changed as well . I think he doesn't want to ever have to make that kind of choice again.
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Old 2008-07-01, 19:17   Link #916
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Lulu's thing with Euphie was an accident..

And he was starting to consent at the moment he was privately negotiating with her, especially now that she knew who she was... He didn't have to hold back and always be "Zero-sama". This was a breakthrough, and just as Geass brought him that far up, it screwed him over right there.

Trust me, OoBK and Lulu would have been satisfied, if not happy, in the Administration of Japan. Lulu for sure, as Nunnally carried that dream of Euphie's with her.

And can someone tell me the screentime the characters have received until now? With the different colours and stuff? I can't read Japanese, so I doubt I'll be able to read their TV station records and whatnot.
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Old 2008-07-01, 19:18   Link #917
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Originally Posted by ApostleOfGod View Post
Lulu's thing with Euphie was an accident..

And he was starting to consent at the moment he was privately negotiating with her, especially now that she knew who she was... He didn't have to hold back and always be "Zero-sama". This was a breakthrough, and just as Geass brought him that far up, it screwed him over right there.

Trust me, OoBK and Lulu would have been satisfied, if not happy, in the Administration of Japan. Lulu for sure, as Nunnally carried that dream of Euphie's with her.

And can someone tell me the screentime the characters have received until now? With the different colours and stuff? I can't read Japanese, so I doubt I'll be able to read their TV station records and whatnot.
Why not sit through the series and find out?
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Old 2008-07-01, 19:38   Link #918
ApostleOfGod
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Why not sit through the series and find out?
Because it's difficult for me to start tracking down every second a character gets screen on 25 CG episodes, of which 12 has already aired...
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Old 2008-07-01, 19:40   Link #919
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Hmmm... the leads get plenty of time (Lulu, Rolo, Suzaku). Any particular character I can point you to?
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Old 2008-07-01, 20:01   Link #920
ApostleOfGod
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Hmmm... the leads get plenty of time (Lulu, Rolo, Suzaku). Any particular character I can point you to?
...

I want numbers! I saw someone post a nice board last time, taken from a TV channel web or something.. Saw a really nice one during R1 I believe.

I can generically guess.. But I'd like specifics.. Lol you hater stop making me talk back
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