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Old 2010-08-21, 13:08   Link #4021
giorno
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there are so many different sources about angels it's not even funny...Metatron doesn't even exist in many doctrines, Roman Catholic included...

from the looks of it, it seems Kamachi is using the eastern orthodox hierarchy, at least as far as the 4 archangels are concerned

Michael is generally considered as the strongest angel, from a military point of view, as the chief of the heavenly host and the one who cast satan down from heaven...
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Old 2010-08-21, 13:46   Link #4022
tsunade666
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I'm a roman catholic but haven't heard metatron. To be honest the first time I heard about that is when kabalah was mention in 666 satan manga. Though their is another angel aside from metatron that's been mentioned.... I think it's sandephon though not sure about the name. Then after that manga I heard it in persona games

eastern orthodox hierarchy? first time hearing it too. I really don't have knowledge concerning that. But if I derived my hypothesis from the 4 god's right hand. Representing the 4 corners of the earth and four elements and also 4 angels that would bring destruction to earth..... Their are only 4 so far and one is already been shown in physical state even though it's in terribly weaken state.
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Old 2010-08-21, 13:49   Link #4023
Phibrizzo
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You are correct but Anise did mention something, her staff represent the 5 elementals, 4 which represent the angels and 1 ore thats ether.
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Old 2010-08-21, 14:03   Link #4024
Miraluka
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Anyone besides me thinks that The Book of Law can only read by someone who knows/understands "angelic language" kinda makes sense if Aiwass is supposed to be the real author.
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Old 2010-08-21, 14:54   Link #4025
oldmanpoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giorno View Post
there are so many different sources about angels it's not even funny...Metatron doesn't even exist in many doctrines, Roman Catholic included...

from the looks of it, it seems Kamachi is using the eastern orthodox hierarchy, at least as far as the 4 archangels are concerned

Michael is generally considered as the strongest angel, from a military point of view, as the chief of the heavenly host and the one who cast satan down from heaven...

True, some Archangels can appear in multiple Choirs/Orders. Makes it difficult to place some of them definitively into the hierarchy. And yes, there are a lot sources describing angels. Michael's descriptions according to the five versus that mention him in the Bible make him seem pretty important, but in most sources I've come across, with exceptions like Michael, Archangels tend to be put fairly low on the rung, as angels who directly communicate with humans.

Michael is "one of the chief princes," implying there are others, and he is generally considered (though I don't think it's explicitly stated) to be the field commander of God's army. I don't believe he was the one who cast Satan out of Heaven the first time. That is still yet to come, according to the books of Revelation and Daniel which describe the event as prophecy for the end days. Vento of the Front mentions Lucifer's rebellion in Heaven in past tense, so I'm assuming Satan was cast out already by some other means and then will be defeated by Michael's superior forces in the second war (not necessarily that Michael is stronger on an individual basis).

Of course, if one of the novels mentions somewhere that Michael cast out Satan already, there's not much to do except use that as canon regardless of Biblical verse.

EDIT: then again, maybe an angel's ranking in the orders, at least among the lower orders excluding Cherubim and Seraphim, doesn't indicate strength from a military perspective, but describes things more from an administrative view.

Last edited by oldmanpoo; 2010-08-21 at 15:14.
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Old 2010-08-21, 14:55   Link #4026
tsunade666
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Then I wouldn't be surprised if Accelerator start deciphering it. He starts to understand angelic language thanks to goat skin and also thanks to that he manage to fend off AIM based attack of Hyoka though Telesma based attack of Gabriel still damage him.

With his own knowledge of science and some knowledge of angels the artificial angel of academy city wouldn't win against him. Though the real deal angels still are different.
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Old 2010-08-21, 15:01   Link #4027
Phibrizzo
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You know what would be funny and unfunny and god I hope I am wrong here that each of the 3 protagonist is a personification of the holy trinity.

For example Accelerator seems to be of the age of horus acording to Aiwass

God Father

Touma lack luck but it always helping people even if is following his own belives

Jesus

Mr I have all the luck of the world but I am useless otherwise

Holy spirit
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Old 2010-08-21, 15:40   Link #4028
giorno
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmanpoo View Post

EDIT: then again, maybe an angel's ranking in the orders, at least among the lower orders excluding Cherubim and Seraphim, doesn't indicate strength from a military perspective, but describes things more from an administrative view.
the angelic choirs are divided precisely based upon their roles, not their strength or power


also, am i the only one who thinks esper powers developed by AC are nothing more than magic from the book of the law?
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Old 2010-08-21, 16:21   Link #4029
oldmanpoo
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Seems possible, actually, unless I'm missing something (which is easily possible). Aleister in real life practiced some weird amalgamation of pseudo-science cosmology and religion he dubbed Thelema, using, as he claimed, the scientific method to record spiritual experiences. Not only that, but technically, even the magic in this series must operate on some sort of scientific principle, perhaps just with a different method of attaining it (granted through God or through a connection to Heaven).

When Vento mentioned angels as being tools/machines with no free will (which isn't really the case in scripture, but for the sake of this series...) it seems to indicate that perhaps the "magic" side (magicians, angels) is also utilizing principles controlled by science and mechanics, just a different kind or from a different source.

I'd be interested in knowing on a physical level how a flame created by a pyrokinetic (such as the one in episode one of Railgun) is any different than Stiyl's.

Spoiler for Crowley/Aiwass:


According to that (taken from Wikipedia), Aiwass was only a messenger. Can someone tell me where it was stated Aiwass was above Archangels?
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Old 2010-08-21, 18:51   Link #4030
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmanpoo View Post
According to that (taken from Wikipedia), Aiwass was only a messenger. Can someone tell me where it was stated Aiwass was above Archangels?
I have no idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by giorno View Post
also, am i the only one who thinks esper powers developed by AC are nothing more than magic from the book of the law?
No, both Nyan and I came to that conclusion as well.

But I wouldn't call it 'magic' though as it clearly has different properties from 'normal' magic. But like 'magic' and Telesma, it's a form of energy/matter in the Universe that isn't fully explain by Science yet... God knows we have alot of them.
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Old 2010-08-21, 20:02   Link #4031
Phibrizzo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmanpoo View Post
According to that (taken from Wikipedia), Aiwass was only a messenger. Can someone tell me where it was stated Aiwass was above Archangels?
The one on the novel state he is similar to angels but something beyond that, it never actually stated to be over them.
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Old 2010-08-21, 20:09   Link #4032
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phibrizzo View Post
The one on the novel state he is similar to angels but something beyond that, it never actually stated to be over them.
As I recall, he just said that he is an Angel, but not like the Christian Angels, which I interpret now as 'Not made from the same Stuff'. And that Aiwass is a natural Angel made from AIM, which would then explain how he can teach Aleister about it.
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Old 2010-08-21, 20:34   Link #4033
Miraluka
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Quote:
You can call me "DRAGON," though more accurate is calling me an "extraterrestrial intelligent being," "holy guardian angel," or "the true master of the secrets that shaped modern western magicks"
The interesting point is Aiwass says magicks and not magic.
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Old 2010-08-21, 21:11   Link #4034
Suzuku
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^ Couldn't that just be a typo?
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Old 2010-08-21, 21:13   Link #4035
Miraluka
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^ Couldn't that just be a typo?
No, it isn't, I thought the same before so I checked some chinesse translations and asked a friend who knows chinesse as well and confirmed this. Or maybe both, my friend and me are wrong XD.
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Old 2010-08-21, 21:44   Link #4036
Suzuku
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Just so happens I found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magick

Quote:
Magick, in the writings of British occultist Aleister Crowley, is defined as "the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with the will", including both "mundane" acts of will as well as ritual magic. Crowley claimed that "it is theoretically possible to cause in any object any change of which that object is capable by nature".
Very interesting. Someone should read this entire article. We'll probably find out a lot about the origins of Aiwass and Aleister's plans from it.
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Old 2010-08-21, 22:31   Link #4037
tsunade666
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"the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with the will"
Isn't this the same as the esper's PERSONAL REALITY?
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Old 2010-08-21, 22:49   Link #4038
Suzuku
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^ Yep, that's exactly what I thought as well. If Aiwass is the true master of the secrets of magicks then could that mean, rather than being some form of angel, it's actually the ultimate esper that transcended human boundaries?

EDIT: Some Chapter 6 (i.e. chapter 2) info from vol 21. Credit to Observer from OM:

Spoiler for Vol 21 chapter 6 (chapter 2 of the volume):
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Last edited by Suzuku; 2010-08-21 at 23:25.
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Old 2010-08-21, 23:42   Link #4039
cubicjack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
No, it isn't, I thought the same before so I checked some chinesse translations and asked a friend who knows chinesse as well and confirmed this. Or maybe both, my friend and me are wrong XD.
Actually, I think the actual line was more like this, translated directly from the Japanese text (The current Chinese translation of vol. 19 also provides a similar translation):
Quote:
It's not wrong to call me by that name. The term "angel" also fits. At the very least, when compared to pompous things such as the much-rumored extraterrestrial intelligent lifeforms, holy guardian angels and the Secret Chiefs of Magick Societies, this name is much closer to my nature.
Might not be the most accurate translation though. Someone should correct me if I misunderstood something.
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Old 2010-08-22, 00:07   Link #4040
tsunade666
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so what is she? an angel or not? that just brings that he real nature is like an angel but still shes not entirely one.
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