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Old 2010-08-29, 07:18   Link #4181
tsunade666
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hmm well Accelerators ability and Kakine are very unique so I can understand. But still Rikou can copy Mikoto's ability.

Ah Rikou can't probably copy too Sogita's ability because his ability is also unknown.

But Shiage is really incredible or should I say the power of love is incredible.
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Old 2010-08-29, 07:33   Link #4182
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I'm still curious as to why Aiwass (who we know very little about) is arbitrarily placed at the top when compared to a seriously gimped Gabriel. I think a special category should be created that classifies these beings together (at least for the time being until we know more about Aiwass or Gabriel's true power).

Of course, I may have missed something. Feel free to fill me in. I'd still be glad to have someone tell me from where in the novels the Index wiki found the information to state Aiwass as "being far above conventional angels," especially considering just right before that the wiki also says "Aiwass's powers cannot be described nor comprehended". Basically, from what I can gather, nobody knows anything about her/him or her/his abilities.

Can someone fill me in?
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Old 2010-08-29, 08:59   Link #4183
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Well Aiwass is a being similar to an angel. And being an angel means your literally broken on this world rules. So his on the top. Plus he make the current accelerator like an ant vs an elephant. And Aiwass wasn't retaliating the one who do the attacking is Accelerator but still no effect against that being.
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Old 2010-08-29, 09:50   Link #4184
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Aiwass, being similar to an angel, has a core that lies in another dimension. He can't be killed unless that is destroyed. He's also apparently omnipresent, and made everyobdy in the vicinity faint just by appearing.
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Old 2010-08-29, 09:51   Link #4185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillmissing View Post
Please forgive me as it's been a long long time since I've so much as glanced at vol 2, but when they refer to the "Dummy", they mean the copy of himself that Izzard created, and whom Stiyl later immolated during the story.
I'm not sure. I thhought it was talking about how stupid Aurrelous was acting while fighting Touma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neki Ecko View Post
I think that chart is kinda accurate but power charts doesnt even matter when it comes down to this series. Think about it, Touma has beaten or stay in par with about 90% that is above him.
Touma isn't under them, he's in the unknown section.
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Old 2010-08-29, 09:54   Link #4186
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The true is there is nothing to suggest that Aiwass is stronger than Gabriel. He's stronger than Accelerator that's for sure, but that's about as conclusive as we have. Perhaps the wikia mistaken Aiwass' statement about being different than Christian Angels.

I mean come on, Even when she's not at full power she still could wipe out a city and control celestial bodies!
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Old 2010-08-29, 10:09   Link #4187
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well we still haven't seen Aiwass not your christian angel works.
If his similar on an angel but different from a know christian angel then here's a thought is it possible for other gods to appear in toaruverse? like loki, zues or horus?
Aiwass gold wings represent horus and horus isn't part of the christian sect.

If you expand the idea in toaruverse their are lots of sect to be used as materials as the science technology never stops on advancing.
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Old 2010-08-29, 10:14   Link #4188
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Originally Posted by Suzuku View Post
I'm not sure. I thhought it was talking about how stupid Aurrelous was acting while fighting Touma.
That thing is actually called アウレオルス ダミー. It's an entity he created.
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Old 2010-08-29, 20:23   Link #4189
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So basically, we still have nothing to confirm Aiwass is actually the "strongest," considering Gabriel was in an incomplete state and Michael/other Angels (heck, even God) haven't appeared yet (though that last one I think is highly unlikely and a bit unbalanced). I recognize Aiwass should undoubtedly be towards the top for obvious reasons, but I'd be interested in finding out where the fact (or rumor) came from that suggested placing Aiwass at the top. Just curious. The Index wiki can be edited by anyone, correctly or incorrectly.

Also, to the post that stated Aiwass was omnipresent, is this taken from the novels? I may have missed this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
well we still haven't seen Aiwass not your christian angel works.
If his similar on an angel but different from a know christian angel then here's a thought is it possible for other gods to appear in toaruverse? like loki, zues or horus?
Aiwass gold wings represent horus and horus isn't part of the christian sect.

If you expand the idea in toaruverse their are lots of sect to be used as materials as the science technology never stops on advancing.
I'm glad you brought this up. I've read Christian scholarly work before researching Biblical scripture suggesting that Christianity is not just a "monotheistic" religion as is commonly believed. My memory is fuzzy, but evidence was presented that other heavenly hosts exist alongside God in the Christian pantheon, or perhaps outside God's realm, who could essentially be deemed "lesser gods" or "deities". In other words, heavenly hosts refer not simply to God and his order of angels, but to other divine beings as well. However, it's also clearly stated, both in that research and in the Biblical scripture supporting it, that God is clearly at the top of the order.

I still have three theories on Aiwass. He/she is simply a divine deity-like being not necessarily associated with God, he/she is an "angel" messenger of another divine being lesser than God, or he/she is truly Lucifer, in which case he/she would justifiably be placed at the top of the currently known Index power list, above even the other angels.

http://hatsunejimanoneiro.hp.infoseek.co.jp/toaru.html

^Remember the whole "Satan/Dragon" thing?

Scroll down towards the bottom and find the chapter associated with Aiwass, which translates as "第四章 地獄へ誘う二つの怪物 Dragon(Angel)". This was already mentioned a few pages back I believe by another poster.

Still, unless this novel decided to do a complete recharacterization of a being as incomparably evil as Satan, I find that theory to be somewhat unsubstantiated at this point, at least until we figure out Aiwass' true objective.

EDIT: I should stress that the research I alluded to did not in any way suggest to Christians to worship any other of these "divine beings" aside from God. They simply exist alongside God and perhaps perform a myriad of administrative or "lone wolf" roles.

Last edited by oldmanpoo; 2010-08-29 at 20:38.
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Old 2010-08-29, 23:54   Link #4190
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While not in complete support the old testament never denies the gods of the egypth people, they just mention they are inferior and not comparable to the God of the judaism.
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Old 2010-08-29, 23:54   Link #4191
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Lesser gods or deity? I think they are called lords because in biblical words their can only be one god and lots of "lords" the know one god, the three persona's with also hierarchy on them.
father, son and holy spirit.

As for Still on Aiwass. If we look at it on different perspective. He could still be an angel but not a christian angel because his the one who appeared on Crowley that teaches him about things and whole law of his sect and thus the birth of the book of law.

His still an angel but not your christian angel.

But if you look at it on christian perspective. An angel that doesn't work for the one true god then his a fallen angel, a devil. So him being a dragon can also be true if he doesn't work for the god and if we based it on his doings. He advice Accelerator to go to russia and if his a christian angel they shouldn't do such thing. Christian angels doesn't have the right to intervene in real world without the order of god. But this Aiwass girl is just keep on doing it. I'm not sure on Hyoka but Hyouka still go to russia to save index but who tell her to go their?

Then in vol 21 this guy/girl start to get interest on the boy who holds the imagine breaker. And him being interested on you means bad news.
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Old 2010-08-30, 00:41   Link #4192
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To borrow 'Trope-speak', Aiwass is pretty much a 'Dimension Lord' and a 'physical god', from another dimension (ref: vol19 ch4), is the mentor of Aleister but really don't care either way if Aleister succeeds in his plan or fails - Aiwass is just on Earth for fun, seeing how the conflicts will turn out. He told Accelerator either way he can come back to Earth in 10,000 or even 100,000 years time even if he's defeated, since the 'form' Aiwass has right now on Earth is basically made of AIM, constructed by Aleister for purposes not yet revealed.
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Old 2010-08-30, 00:55   Link #4193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmanpoo View Post
So basically, we still have nothing to confirm Aiwass is actually the "strongest,"
Look, that chart was made by the novel-reading community of 2ch, so this a case of when we should just trust their judgment. Why? Because we don't have enough facts to back up these wild claims suggesting Aiwass isn't the strongest, while they have access to facts supporting his current position on the chart. Absence of evidence doesn't equal evidence of absence, etc.

And these scenes alone show us his superiority:
Quote:
It also remarked itself can also be called a ‘angel’, or at least sounds closer to the truth than a ‘extraterrestrial intelligent being’, ‘holy guardian angel’, or ‘the true master of the secrets that shaped modern western magics’, and says he/she’s very different than the angels in the bible. And finally “there are few that reach this point. And it’s because so I’m interested in this, and that there’s value in stating my name… I’m the one who once taught the bare essentials of the necessary knowledge to the eccentric magician Aleister Crowley.
Quote:
Aiwass was saying how humans never change, and history is always flowing on regardless of what humans do, so even if she’s defeated she can always come back in another 10,000 years, or even 100,000 years, as she’s not really of this world. Aiwass is also saying though Aleister always improve his plans to make it better after unforeseen events, cracks are starting to appear.
Quote:
Accelerator brings out his black wings to try and attack, but Aiwass only smiles and says that’s something from the age of [Osiris], is outdated and cannot possibly defeat herself from the times of [Horus].
Quote:
Aleister replied though Aiwass jokes his plans are coming apart, she won’t hold her position of superiority forever – and Aiwass says it matters not either way, since she never asked for this power.
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Old 2010-08-30, 03:13   Link #4194
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On the topic of who Aiwass is. I always feel she/he is just one of the celestial beings in the Thelema cult. After all, that cult has its list of gods. I theorize that "Age of Horus" could be a realm inhabited by the Thelema gods.
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Old 2010-08-30, 06:29   Link #4195
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If Aiwass is a god of the thelema cult then their should be other gods involve in this story based on other cult too.

I don't have much to say but I think Aiwass is pretty much given as one of the strongest.

Off topic a bit.

guys have you tried the other novel of kamachi? the heavy object? I'm trying to download chapter 1-3 of the manga version of it and it also looks awesome. As expected of him. Pretty futuristic this time.
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Old 2010-08-30, 15:03   Link #4196
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^ I'll wait until it's a little further into it's run and more info on it comes out. I'm still not exactly sure what it's about.
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Old 2010-08-30, 15:32   Link #4197
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Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
Look, that chart was made by the novel-reading community of 2ch, so this a case of when we should just trust their judgment. Why? Because we don't have enough facts to back up these wild claims suggesting Aiwass isn't the strongest, while they have access to facts supporting his current position on the chart. Absence of evidence doesn't equal evidence of absence, etc.

And these scenes alone show us his superiority:
I don't think not assuming Aiwass as the "top of the list" is as "wild a claim" as you suggest. Not only have we not seen the true power of Gabriel and the higher angels, but I find it difficult to believe that the 2ch boards are "all knowing" (better perhaps than some of us, though we have members here who speak Japanese I believe) when compared to the knowledge we've gathered here, especially considering how little information we have on the Index-universe Aiwass, and that Aiwass hadn't even appeared until vol. 19. We ourselves have gleaned plenty of info about Aiwass from those able to provide us with translations. In addition, there's a site called Wikipedia that I'm sure we all use frequently which has quite a bit of information on the real Aiwass, and I know that the real Aiwass was the inspiration for her character in the novels. I wonder if 2ch bothered to check that out.

Much of what you quoted I was already aware of, and none of the additional quotes you listed contradicted what I stated originally (that Aiwass is obviously powerful). I've already mentioned Aiwass is obviously one of the strongest characters in Index. However, the vagueness of the quoted descriptions you provided, to my eyes at least, fall far short of the necessary proof needed to validate the wiki statements I quoted earlier that conclude "Aiwass is far above conventional Angels, including Archangels" (big difference between Angels and Archangels). If I'm wrong, I'd be glad to see quotes that are less vague about Aiwass' abilities, but I believe those wiki summary statements I quoted earlier may have been made based on faulty assumptions or translations. What I'm suggesting is that perhaps Archangels or higher order Angels (all at their full capacity and not nerfed) are probably on par with Aiwass and I've yet to see evidence to the contrary (doesn't mean there isn't any).

Like I've said, I'm open to conclusive evidence, but not assumptions.

By the way, none of this was meant to be typed with an argumentative tone. I simply hate using emotes and the such to make my posts more "light-hearted".

And I am leaning more towards my theory I stated earlier that Aiwass is indeed just a "deity-like" existence from the Thelema religion, but perhaps she does have connections with Christianity (maybe just in regards to the Index novels, not reality). I can't really tell what the Index author is plotting with the religion-meshing going on.


Additional Edit: Not only that, but according to the Thelema religion in reality, Aiwass wasn't even a god or deity, but simply a messenger ("Minister") of a god (placing her in an "Angel" classification). And Aiwass' master most likely (if he is indeed involved in the Index novel series later, though he may or may not even play a role at all, or even exist in the Index series) would most likely not rank above the Christian God for obvious reasons. So the assumption Aiwass is somehow the "Ultimate Angel," even if she's an Angel different than Christian Angels, seems to constitute pure speculation at this point. But meh, it's not that big of a deal really. Perhaps Aiwass is the strongest of the Angel-class beings. Or perhaps higher order Angels such as the important Archangels, Seraphim, and Cherubim (if they exist in the Index universe) are on par with Aiwass or stronger. We'll just wait and see.

EDIT again: Damn, I keep adding stuff. The following is speculation on my part:

My experience (opinion) with the Index author's philosophy when writing his novels is that he tries to keep all sides happy/balanced between the religion side, Science/Thelema side, different Christian sects, and what-have-you). In that sense, perhaps the author himself doesn't really place Aiwass in a specific power hierarchy when compared to Christian Angels so as to leave it all open to interpretation and debate, which keeps things interesting. Perhaps even the author himself doesn't really know or care whether or not Aiwass is truly above the strongest Angels or not. He just writes the novels in which the Angels kick ass, Aiwass kicks ass, we have fun reading and interpreting, and that's that. It's all the fans that argue consistently who is stronger and whatnot (which there's nothing wrong with that).

Debates over power hierarchies rage on in so many anime, manga, and other related media forums and nothing usually comes of the more difficult to place/abstract characters. Even if (and that's a big IF) Aiwass is stronger than perhaps Gabriel or other higher Angels) I doubt Aiwass will ever confront Michael or a fully-powered Gabriel in an openly antagonistic attack on Heaven (since that doesn't seem Aiwass' style as he'd/she'd be touching off a losing war against God, and yes, I believe the war would be over quickly), and if Aiwass does engage an Archangel on an individual basis, it will probably end inconclusively. It's my impression the author has been taking the middle-ground for most the series, and when you have such a religiously-heavy series like this that's probably the best route. In other words, just my personal opinion, but we may not specifically ever find out if Aiwass is stronger than certain Archangels or not.

Now, if Aiwass at some point demonstrates clear superiority based on hard evidence and actual events and not vague, difficult to understand translations, I'll accept it as fact without a problem.

On a final note, Wikipedia (not the Index one) mentions no claims of Aiwass being far superior even to Archangels. Wikipedia is considerably detailed on Index.

Last edited by oldmanpoo; 2010-08-30 at 19:41.
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Old 2010-08-30, 18:59   Link #4198
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Double-post. Sorry, but I felt the wall of text in my last post was too long. In the chart, Fiamma is clearly placed alongside Aiwass in the power hierarchy, correct? Taken from the Index wiki:

Spoiler:


I'm not fully caught up on the novel's events yet, but if Fiamma is indeed telling the truth, if the power of Michael's right-hand alone (not including the rest of Michael's abilities) had that level of power, and Fiamma was using a nerfed version of the arm's power, I can't imagine Michael (did I stress he's an Archangel?) not easily outclassing Aiwass (at least according to your logic that we should trust the 2ch power chart that placed Fiamma next to Aiwass). So from there, how is it a stretch to conclude that a fully functionion Gabriel (also an Archangel) wouldn't be a contender for Aiwass? When I envision these confrontations I see stalemates, or Aiwass, being the nonchalant, patient being she is, simple phasing away to ignore the conflict).

What I'm saying is don't put too much stock into the chart because I honestly do find it difficult to believe that Fiamma, while completely haxx, is on par with Aiwass. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. There's enough terminology and characters floating around to make my head spin. Besides, these power charts change all the time, and from the same people with the same characters.

Last edited by oldmanpoo; 2010-08-30 at 20:10.
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Old 2010-08-30, 19:29   Link #4199
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Spoiler:


I'm not fully caught up on the novel's events yet, but if Fiamma is indeed telling the truth, if the power of Michael's right-hand alone (not including the rest of Michael's abilities) had that level of power, and Fiamma was using a nerfed version of the arm's power, I can't imagine Michael (did I stress he's an Archangel?) not easily outclassing Aiwass (at least according your logic that we should trust the 2ch power chart that placed Fiamma next to Aiwass). So from there, how is it a stretch to conclude that a fully functionion Gabriel (also an Archangel) wouldn't be a contender for Aiwass? When I envision these confrontations I see stalemates, or Aiwass, being the nonchalant, patient being she is, simple phasing away to ignore the conflict).

What I'm saying is don't put too much stock into the chart because I honestly do find it difficult that Fiamma, while completely haxx, is on par with Aiwass. Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. There's enough terminology and characters floating around to make my head spin. Besides, these power charts change all the time, and from the same people with the same characters.
I'll agree that power charts are practically useless unless it's one done by the authors. Though, Michael is literally 'The one that sits in God's Right Seat', and is named in canon as treated as God's equal in some senses (see Vol14 intermissions when Ludvia talks with Stiyl).

Aiwass, on the other hand, basically what the 'Data Overmind' is in Suzumiya Haruhi, but from another dimension. The form Aiwass took to beat Accelerator was merely a shell made from AIM and Aiwass crushed Accelerator by only using the self defence mechanisms Crowley put in to prevent Aiwass breaking it out of boredom. If Aiwass gets serious it's unknown how well he can fare against Archangel Michael. In vol20 the narrative stated Aiwass has the power to destroy the world with only one of its fingertips.

bottom line - The chart is next to worthless, and we'll only know who's stronger if they actually fight it out in canon. Even then Aiwass might just forfeit since it has nothing to gain/lose if it fights, and prefers to watch events play out - that's partly why it told Kazakiri to go and fight Misha Kruzkev instead of go crushing it him/her/itself. (the narrative suggested Aiwass didn't even consider Misha/Gabriel a threat to itself in the Battle Report after Vol20 ch4)

Last edited by Flere821; 2010-08-30 at 19:36. Reason: more info.
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Old 2010-08-30, 20:08   Link #4200
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Originally Posted by Flere821 View Post
I'll agree that power charts are practically useless unless it's one done by the authors. Though, Michael is literally 'The one that sits in God's Right Seat', and is named in canon as treated as God's equal in some senses (see Vol14 intermissions when Ludvia talks with Stiyl).

Aiwass, on the other hand, basically what the 'Data Overmind' is in Suzumiya Haruhi, but from another dimension. The form Aiwass took to beat Accelerator was merely a shell made from AIM and Aiwass crushed Accelerator by only using the self defence mechanisms Crowley put in to prevent Aiwass breaking it out of boredom. If Aiwass gets serious it's unknown how well he can fare against Archangel Michael. In vol20 the narrative stated Aiwass has the power to destroy the world with only one of its fingertips.

bottom line - The chart is next to worthless, and we'll only know who's stronger if they actually fight it out in canon. Even then Aiwass might just forfeit since it has nothing to gain/lose if it fights, and prefers to watch events play out - that's partly why it told Kazakiri to go and fight Misha Kruzkev instead of go crushing it him/her/itself. (the narrative suggested Aiwass didn't even consider Misha/Gabriel a threat to itself in the Battle Report after Vol20 ch4)
Interesting. But the Index wiki stated that angels also have the capability of laying waste to the earth with the utmost ease (possibly even the lower angels), and some (I'm assuming the stronger ones) possess actual celestial-body altering "magic" (at least I believe I read that somewhere).

But the concept of Seraphiel (the chief Seraph) appearing would be awesome. Apparently, Seraphim possess such glory or brightness that not even other Angels can gaze directly at them:
Spoiler for Wikipedia Hierarchy of Angels:
But Seraphim may not even exist in the Index universe, unfortunately.

And I imagine Aiwass didn't consider Misha a threat to itself for several reasons:

1: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe she was not even at half power.
2: Aiwass can escape any situation. Misha trying to attack Aiwass would probably be akin to a cat chasing around a laser pointer, unless Aiwass actually decided to stop and engage her seriously.
3. Perhaps she had other ulterior motives using Kazikiri, and knew others would get involved as well. Or perhapsjust for fun.

I believe it was actually Michael who had been transplanted into Sasha and not Gabriel, hence Fiamma's interest in her.


Assuming the information I heard about Aiwass having a core in another dimension is true, similar to angels, it does seem to me that a fight between the strongest angels and Aiwass would probably just result in them tearing each other up, then they would regenerate, and realize the whole process was pointless. Which is why a confrontation or power struggle between Aiwass and the Angels seems pointless. Unless Aiwass is planning a war of some sort against Heaven (complete and utter speculation on my part).

Last edited by oldmanpoo; 2010-09-01 at 12:02.
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