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Old 2011-03-23, 22:03   Link #9181
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that Accel somehow gained Kakine's Dark Matter ability when he grew those wings. I just don't see how that could happen if his powers weren't somehow connected to the divine.
Are you referring to his unknown vector attack? He already has it when he first grew his wings. It was what he use to send Kihara accelerating to ten times the speed of sound.

Or perhaps you're thinking of the part where he took control of the white wings and use it to stab Kakine? THat was all still just his own Redirection powers.
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Old 2011-03-23, 22:06   Link #9182
Kuroi Hadou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Are you referring to his unknown vector attack? He already has it when he first grew his wings. It was what he use to send Kihara accelerating to ten times the speed of sound.

Or perhaps you're thinking of the part where he took control of the white wings and use it to stab Kakine? THat was all still just his own Redirection powers.
It's possible I misread it, but:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vol. 15, Ch. 5, Part 4
From behind him spread murky black wings, as if they shot out from his back. This pair of wings that contain something which can blow away the mind, and anger that shatter his own sense of self, spread instantly over tens of meters, and shaves off parts of the buildings and roads around him.

“Ha.”

This pair of black wings, Kakine has seen it before, and knows what it is.

The elementary particles that don’t exist in this world, ‘Dark Matter’.
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Old 2011-03-23, 22:17   Link #9183
Mr.Kyon
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
In any case, there's no rule that states only Accelerator and Kakine can awaken and grow wings. If there is, someone please point out where they read it.
Which is why I suggested that it is possible Mikoto could Awaken if the limitations of the Parameter List are removed. I'm not arguing for or against, I'm just saying that as of now, for the English community, there is not a piece of info which outlines who and who can't Awaken. The divine factor is merely a speculation based off Kakine and Accelerator's power origins, and Aleister saying Touma can awaken as well.

Even if Mikoto were to Awaken, she'd be no match for unawakened Accel, though perhaps her awakened form might bear something Aleister wants to keep in check.
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Old 2011-03-23, 22:30   Link #9184
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
Well if its not magic or science it has to be of a higher realm.
For all intents and purposes, the Wings are still within the realm of their 'Science'. WHether it's AIM or it's Dark Matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
It's possible I misread it, but:
...No, you didn't misread. If taken literally it would mean that the wings are made of Dark Matter. Strange, I've always thought it was AIM, which are also elementary particles that don't exist in this world- ARGH! This is confusing...

Okay, compromise, it's an element particle that doesn't exist like Dark Matter, but it doesn't possess the matter changing properties that Kakine has.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Kyon View Post
Which is why I suggested that it is possible Mikoto could Awaken if the limitations of the Parameter List are removed.
THat's the thing, awakening has nothing to do with what they teach. This is something that the Esper has to undergo themselves. Either way I don't see what this has to do with the Parameter List, even if they don't believe she can do it.

GAHHH! FLERE! COME CLARIFY THIS MEEESSSSSSS!!!!!!
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Old 2011-03-23, 22:40   Link #9185
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Well from what I can infer is that Alistair is trying to create level six's, which are kind of like artificial angels, like Accelerator who has a very rare esper power. So what if someone, like Touma with divine powers, awaken to be on the scale of an Archangel, because even though Accelerator had awoken he was still no match for Gabriel alone, so Touma whose power can be considered divine might turn into an Archangel type if he ever awoken.

On the topic of Mikoto awakening I don't think it's possible, in order to awaken you need to have some life changing revelation, and the only people who had one were people who were deep in the cities "darkness". Also her power is one of the most common, it can't be classified as a divine power, and the only people who has awoken had either divine (in appearance), or very rare powers.
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Old 2011-03-23, 22:43   Link #9186
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This whole "awakening" thing makes me wonder just how much foreshadowing the Angel Fall arc was doing when it said that you can't raise yourself to an angelic hierarchy without knocking one of them off and taking their power.
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Old 2011-03-23, 22:48   Link #9187
I_am_Kami
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollownerox View Post
Well from what I can infer is that Alistair is trying to create level six's, which are kind of like artificial angels, like Accelerator who has a very rare esper power. So what if someone, like Touma with divine powers, awaken to be on the scale of an Archangel, because even though Accelerator had awoken he was still no match for Gabriel alone, so Touma whose power can be considered divine might turn into an Archangel type if he ever awoken.

On the topic of Mikoto awakening I don't think it's possible, in order to awaken you need to have some life changing revelation, and the only people who had one were people who were deep in the cities "darkness". Also her power is one of the most common, it can't be classified as a divine power, and the only people who has awoken had either divine (in appearance), or very rare powers.


If touma awakens it'll be like accelerator as a level 5.

Higher than god = level 5

Fiamma=misaka
Touma=accelerator
Same class above god but touma is higher
So calculate that and move x to the other side of the equation(blah blah blah)
Touma + x= Gabriel is his bitch when x= - right hand
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Old 2011-03-23, 22:49   Link #9188
Kuroi Hadou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
If touma awakens it'll be like accelerator as a level 5.

Higher than god = level 5

Fiamma=misaka
Touma=accelerator
Same class above god but touma is higher
So calculate that and move x to the other side of the equation(blah blah blah)
Touma + x= Gabriel is his bitch when x= - right hand
Wait, time out. "Fiamma=Misaka"?
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Old 2011-03-23, 22:58   Link #9189
Sandinwater
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Wow lol I have been gone WAY to long, after reading like 20 pages of this I can honestly say that this series is really confusing.
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Old 2011-03-23, 22:59   Link #9190
I_am_Kami
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
Wait, time out. "Fiamma=Misaka"?
U don't get it?

Fiamma and touma are and have the capability of beige higher than god. But it shows touma is stronger in the "higher than god" level.

It's the same with misaka and accelerator. Accelerator says it him self perfectly. He has no choice but to be put in the level 5class when he owns everyone with ease and he can take misaka down in 2 minutes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandinwater View Post
Wow lol I have been gone WAY to long, after reading like 20 pages of this I can honestly say that this series is really confusing.
It's not confusing. It's just speculation on what means what. The hardest thing I had to understand in this series is kiharas punches
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Old 2011-03-23, 23:03   Link #9191
Kuroi Hadou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
U don't get it?

Fiamma and touma are and have the capability of beige higher than god. But it shows touma is stronger in the "higher than god" level.

It's the same with misaka and accelerator. Accelerator says it him self perfectly. He has no choice but to be put in the level 5class when he owns everyone with ease and he can take misaka down in 2 minutes.
... are you trying to compare our beloved protagonists with God's Right Seat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandinwater View Post
Wow lol I have been gone WAY to long, after reading like 20 pages of this I can honestly say that this series is really confusing.
Welcome to the party.
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Old 2011-03-23, 23:14   Link #9192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
... are you trying to compare our beloved protagonists with God's Right Seat?



Welcome to the party.
Yes. Yes I am
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Old 2011-03-23, 23:16   Link #9193
Miraluka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Kyon View Post
The divine factor is merely a speculation based off Kakine and Accelerator's power origins, and Aleister saying Touma can awaken as well.
Aleister never, never said Touma can awaken.
And as for Aiwass, it only comented about Touma didn't taking a look to the other side before leaving Academy City, though is unknown what was Aiwass talking about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
Fiamma=misaka
What?
Comparing Mikoto with our dear fatalist from God's Right Seat who got owned by Aleister yet he still is alive? Thats crazy .
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Old 2011-03-23, 23:19   Link #9194
I_am_Kami
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Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Aleister never, never said Touma can awaken.
And as for Aiwass, it only comented about Touma didn't taking a look to the other side before leaving Academy City, though is unknown what was Aiwass talking about.
Wikia says that's what aiwass said.
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Old 2011-03-23, 23:26   Link #9195
Miraluka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
Wikia says that's what aiwass said.
The wikia still has a things to fix:
EX:

Quote:
Terra of the Left also hints that Imagine Breaker's full potential is yet to be unlocked, and if it is, it will extend its powers to Touma's whole body and beyond[27].
This is true because it was hinted during their talk.

Quote:
Later in the series, it is hinted to be of divine origin according to two members of God's Right Seat. Fiamma believes Imagine Breaker is similar to the Holy Right which sealed 'The Envoy of Light', Lucifer away for 1,000 years, and also holds the power of 'Miracles'[26].
This is wrong, Fiamma was talking about his own power, THE Holy Right, used to defeat Lucifer by Michael.


From volume 20 after Accelerator's defeat in hand of Touma:
Quote:
While in the City of Shimmers, Aiwass commented Touma's right hand is very interesting, and the narrative here says getting that comment from Aiwass might not be a good thing for Touma, who's looking for a peaceful life. Aiwass then said maybe it might have been better if Touma was shown "the other side" before he left Academy City, though what Aiwass is referring to is unknown.
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Old 2011-03-24, 00:14   Link #9196
tsunade666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
Fiamma=misaka
LoL Misaka comparing to Fiamma

Quote:
Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
U don't get it?

Fiamma and touma are and have the capability of beige higher than god. But it shows touma is stronger in the "higher than god" level.

It's the same with misaka and accelerator. Accelerator says it him self perfectly. He has no choice but to be put in the level 5class when he owns everyone with ease and he can take misaka down in 2 minutes.
I can understand why Touma and Fiamma are compared because they had the same special right hand. Same type of power with different capabilities and power but for reasoning that with Accelerator and Misaka even though they are both level 5 but the terms of power are different but just in terms of number they are the same.

The difference is so huge it's a laughing matter.

Fiamma still wins against Touma in normal condition. The only wrong thing that Fiamma made is cutting off his right hand which seals the thing inside Touma but Touma himself is still proven higher than that. Their strength isn't that much different by normal means.

The one who absolute negate any super natural phenomenon and the other one who has the absolute power to conquer your enemy.

Misaka is lightning the most common thing their is. Comparing it to special case Accelerator which can control vector but within range of telekinesis.

The only thing that I can compare to Accelerator is Kakine and Kakine's power is pretty different and not normal science at all because it over writes the law settings for the matter of this plane.
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Old 2011-03-24, 00:49   Link #9197
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Aside the fact whether she can or not awaken, I read the author doesn't want to involve her too much inside Index since she got her own serie.

And yes, if everything would have gone how Fiamma wanted it, Touma would be ashes. It was angelerator who saved the day this time.
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Old 2011-03-24, 00:53   Link #9198
tsunade666
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Touma can deal with the concentrated telesma but he will be the only one who survived or rather anything that's behind him will be fine. It will ended up like in the event in railgun. It will take few seconds to completely erase the concentrated telesma and that few seconds is enough to turn cinders the land of Russia.
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Old 2011-03-24, 01:14   Link #9199
Flere821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
THat's the thing, awakening has nothing to do with what they teach. This is something that the Esper has to undergo themselves. Either way I don't see what this has to do with the Parameter List, even if they don't believe she can do it.

GAHHH! FLERE! COME CLARIFY THIS MEEESSSSSSS!!!!!!
You called?

Anyway, the 'Parameter List' is basically a estimation to what point a esper can get up to while using minimal resources. It's like diminishing returns, where at beginning it might take 1 unit of resource to get 100 units of power, eventually it might get up to 100 or 1,000 units of resource to get that 100 unit of power. At a certain point it's just not efficient to let the esper keep growing, so AC will move the resources to someone else.

Mikoto, according to the afterword, basically haven't reached the limits of her power yet, she can still grow.

BUT... by no means that means the same as "she can 'awaken'". Personally, I'm guessing Mikoto might get to the stage where she can destroy a entire country with a thunderstorm, but nowhere near the other H4X people who can destroy the Earth with just one attack.


And as a side note about Awakening, I have to point out Touma's awakening is not the same as Accel's or Kakine's. Ref here:

http://toarumajutsunoindex.wikia.com/wiki/Awakening
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Old 2011-03-24, 01:17   Link #9200
Kuroi Hadou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flere821 View Post
Personally, I'm guessing Mikoto might get to the stage where she can destroy a entire country with a thunderstorm, but nowhere near the other H4X people who can destroy the Earth with just one attack.
And who would these "other H4X people" be?
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