AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > Manga & Light Novels > To Aru... Index [LN/M]

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2011-05-19, 07:10   Link #10481
ellifeedn
Thinker
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: New York
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightGale View Post
Edit: ...well i have had a bit of time of letting it sit in me, what you wanted to show was something along the lines of "though itīs best if you take it with a grain of salt, this is exactly what youīre talking about, genes arenīt lost no matter how much time passes..."?
No, I just saw that article recently and thought that since you guys were talking about genetics and how it's orderly and humans have strong genes...
ellifeedn is offline  
Old 2011-05-19, 08:48   Link #10482
Ice Block
less qq; more pewpew
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Philippines
Yes, most of the things in that article are true, the horror theme aside. For example, 1-4% of the genes in non-Africans are shared with Neanderthals. This supports the Neanderthal Admixture theory, the Multiregional hypothesis, and is even consistent with the Out-of-Africa model.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NightGale View Post
Donīt know where to start on this one... Youīre correct and all but one account, genes do work like that. Just like you said, thatīs the principle of evolution: "adaptation", while it does take quite a few generations for a significant change to occur on the gene pool it does not mean that itīs random, in fact thereīs not a single thing in the human reproduction that can be truly called random. Nature has put thousand of mechanism that works like the gears of a clock in order to choose the best of the best and cut off whatīs unneeded (the thing we call random is that when the final stage of comes only the best of the best is left, so you might as well throw a coin, the one chosen wonīt truly change the final result).
When i said "weakened" i meant something simple: if it is true that those characteristics are simply "not expressed" and the genes "not lost"; itīs also true that they donīt simply "express" themselves at need, they are "stored" in the huge vault that is called "Human Genome", a meticulous process that takes quite a few hundred of years to do or reverse. I understand all that and just used the process in a figurative sense to explain my point, itīs true that disregarding time may have been too much of a stretch but well...
It is random. The main driving force of evolution are random mutations. This is the concept of natural selection. There is no meticulous process or gears and whatnot. It's simply survival of the fittest. Beneficial mutations are naturally selected in the sense that an individual who bears a certain mutation gains a higher rate of survival, and thus higher probability to reproduce and pass on that mutation into the next generation. This is the reason why certain types of disease-causing viruses are very hard to suppress. These viruses have unstable genetic material which is very prone to mutations, altering the structure of their protein coats ever so slightly and thus preventing them from being recognized by antibodies. These mutations are either caused by various mutagens, including various wavelengths of electromagnetic radiation, viral infection or chemicals; or are in the form of spontaneous mutations caused by molecular decay. Thanks to these mutations, certain individuals in a population of viruses or bacteria will survive certain medical treatment and will then go on to breed more of their kind who are then resistant to the treatment they survived. This is what's referred to when new strains of certain pathogens are mentioned in the media.

Furthermore, even the reproductive process itself is full of randomization. For example, in gametogenesis alone, meiosis totally randomizes the chromosomes that are carried by each of your gamete cells. Then, there is also randomization in which specific gamete cells end up pairing in fertilization. This is why each individual, aside from identical twins, is genetically unique. With this, I suggest you review your genetics and science in general, as almost everything in nature is random at the core (quantum mechanics). And then refresh your definition of random while we're at it.

It is true. You don't lose any of your genes. Remember alleles and dominance in basic Mendelian genetics? The difference between genotype and phenotype? For example, in crossing parents AA x Aa (both with phenotype A), you expect your first filial generation to have a spread of AA (A), Aa (A), AA (A), Aa (A). In other words, 50% of the offspring would have the AA genotype, the other 50% will have Aa, and all of these will have the phenotype A. Now, let's say we cross two of the Aa offspring. We get a spread of AA (A), Aa (A), Aa (A), aa (a). Here, we see that there is a 25% chance of the resulting offspring expressing the a phenotype. A more complex version of this (involving many genes and many other contributing factors) is in play for most traits, but the basic gist is that genetic material is conserved within species. For example, in the human genome, more than 98% are non-coding genes, and among this 98% are certain permanently silenced genes (due to certain mutations, including mistakes in replication and translation), which are sometimes referred to as fossil genes. These genes, called pseudogenes, are thought to be major determinants in the random mutations that drive evolution, as they are not subject to natural selection (due to their lack of expression, and thus any minor changes to them will have zero effect on the organism, and will just be copied onto the next generation instead of getting naturally selected, until reaching the point where certain mutations are acquired which result in the activation of the gene). Also, a hundred or even a thousand years is far too small for the effects of evolution in large, complex life such as man to be observed. As a testament, the genetic makeup of our species hasn't changed much since anatomically modern humans first appeared around 200,000 years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NightGale View Post
And to the point, what i meant with that is something quite simple: practices and knowledge that have become obsolete or have been simplified, are either lost or replaced. In Toaru, the Queen of the Adriatic Sea canīt be replicated, since the rituals required for itīs creation have been either erased or sealed little by little, just like that itīs possible(more than that but...), that many of the "feats of the right hand" had been lost to time and history. Someone said that regardless of them being known or not by Fiamma, he could use them since theyīre part of the power that makes the HR, but you canīt drive a train without knowledge and you certainly canīt just say that itīs a "miracle" and thatīs why it worked perfectly.
In this series magic is not quite so different from science, both heavily rely on experimentation and fine details to produce results; since thatīs the case, although the HR does most of the work, if Fiamma doesnīt have some control over it it may explode in his face, so he wonīt risk it just by trying to imitate a random legend.
Nope. Nothing is lost, as everything is stored in Index Librorum Prohibitorum. Every significant ritual or spell and all known indestructible grimoires are stored in Index's head. Index knows about the Queen of the Adriatic (and if her knowledge was lacking, simply observing it for a certain amount of time would be enough to complete that knowledge), and her knowledge can be used to create one if the need arises. Furthermore, the Queen of the Adriatic has already been reconstructed and remodeled by Vento (she was even the one who came up with the Appointed Time of the Rosary spell), which allows her to control it with a new spiritual item in the form of a crucifix that resembles a frozen anchor. You don't seem to understand the power of the written language and its significance to a certain religion that takes everything from a certain book as the law. Yes, magic is scientific in the sense that experimentation is observed, but it is also like science in the sense that knowledge is preserved with utmost care. Nothing is lost to time and history, as Curtana Original demonstrates. And yes, Fiamma can use them because, like I said, any miracle is simply the defeat of an enemy. That's why the only thing he needed to do was to bring out the enemy that must be defeated. Simple, isn't it? He isn't trying to imitate anything. He's simply using its power, and in order to bring out more of its power, he needs to bring out an even greater enemy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
In real life he was called "the beast" and in the novels he compares himself to an angry beast.
But what would be his purpose in taking up magic? Since that is what the magic name usually describes. For example, something like The beast who seeks knowledge beyond the Heavens, or The beast who seeks the mind of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou View Post
Not that I know of. Well, she did have a cameo in one of the illustrations for Vol. 1 of NT, but that's the only time I've seen her outside of Railgun.
Her first appearance in the novels is as a background character in a color illustration for Volume 15, and the second being the one in New Testament. That Volume 1 character is just some random mob character, since she wasn't even made at that time (note that the Railgun manga was started sometime after Volume 12/13 was finished), and her initial character design (see pic) doesn't resemble it in the slightest:
__________________
Ice Block is offline  
Old 2011-05-19, 10:26   Link #10483
NightGale
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Spoiler for Ice Blockīs comment:


How to put it... i donīt truly feel like starting a debate over the theory of evolution and natural selection; but, it feels like both a waste and an insult to not say anything, after you have taken the time to expose such a beautifully sound argument...
When i talk of evolution an natural selection, i mostly do it under my own interpretation of the existing theories, due to that i may sometimes not use punctual terms and facts (thing that obviously bothers you, as you seem to be a hard-headed realist... no offense intended, i actually like people that try their best to defend their stance), the key theory in my interpretation is precisely, natural selection; with that in mind, if you use a bit of abstract thinking this will mean that thereīs virtually no randomness in life or evolution, there may exist a great numbers of outcomes, but the one that happens is the one in which the greatest number of variables converge, therefore the "strongest" or better said the "most qualified". Science all in all, is at most at an infant state, thatīs precisely why itīs improbable that we can determinate and understand every single factor involving an outcome, itīs better to believe that we canīt even truly even understand the outcome and may prefer to call it a random process for convenience sake(which technically itīs true from the human scientific point of view, but not so for nature, or if you want to put it that way, the animal who stand at the top and the bottom of the food chain since itīs birth: the world).
- In Human reproduction, it is taught that from the millions of spermatozoon of your father only at random reaches the ovule, to give birth to the person we know as you; in reality, the ones that have any kind of deformity: 2 heads or more, two tails or none and the ones who have lethally defective dna material, often die in the uterus not even reaching the fallopian tubes, the ones who do often become "steps" for a more "qualified" spermatozoon, taking the task of destroying or better said opening a path through the zona pellucida(since their not truly perfect or adept more often than not the end up stuck inside it while other spermatozoon, slips through the path they have created and moves on to the ovule). Since the quality of the semen varies (deteriorate is the word, but i will have to be even more long winded, to explain exactly what i mean), itīs possible that the best spermatozoon of a pool is one with a lethal mutation, or a hereditary disease(which actually mean that the overall quality is actually quite bad); but, nevertheless is a clear process of natural selection, with a great number of variables of which we have only found a small part...
-A traffic accident is not a random event, many variables outside of your power control it, but itīs a certainty that they converge in a bad day in the hospital(your mental state, your driving skill, the amount of glucose in your system, the weather, the state of the road, living and inanimate objects, etc.).
-An almost infinite number of variables converge in an uv causing a mutation in the genetic material of your skin, and if your own body is not in a state in which it can correct it (destroy the altered cell if necessary), it will doubtlessly lead to a skin cancer, if youīre not an adaptable enough entity, you may not even take control(medicine) and die.
Evolution is ruled by natural selection in ways that at our level of science, we can only call an "incomplete random process".
Ps: Sry for the wall of text and my long windedness, though i cut short quite a bit of it...
NightGale is offline  
Old 2011-05-19, 10:44   Link #10484
Sleep_ping
The Restless FTL
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Ellinia
Age: 23
Those who want a little breather from this almost-full-scale debate, here's a little advert.

Speakers/Typers, you may continue. Thank you.
Sleep_ping is offline  
Old 2011-05-19, 11:12   Link #10485
NightGale
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teh_Ping View Post
Haha, sry about that.
NightGale is offline  
Old 2011-05-19, 11:34   Link #10486
Zakoo
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Gensokyo
- Mutations are random : Principle of the biological horlog (randomness - new word ?!)
- The mutations needs to be on the germ cells, as well as not being silent or neutral ( more randomness )
- According to the environment you are either advantaged or disadvantaged, if you are advantaged then you survive longer, and then you can have children more easily. ( randomness ... )
-Those children, if they inherit the mutation continue the cycle. ( randomness once again, because it's not sure the mutation is given depending of the chromosome, thanks meiosis )

Et cetera.

I'm chemist not biologist so sorry but I don't know the accurate terms in english

And yes, using natural selection for humankind is wrong, in a lot of sides ...

---

Aside that, why are we talking about that ?
Zakoo is offline  
Old 2011-05-19, 12:22   Link #10487
NightGale
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
- Mutations are random : Principle of the biological horlog (randomness - new word ?!)
- The mutations needs to be on the germ cells, as well as not being silent or neutral ( more randomness )
- According to the environment you are either advantaged or disadvantaged, if you are advantaged then you survive longer, and then you can have children more easily. ( randomness ... )
-Those children, if they inherit the mutation continue the cycle. ( randomness once again, because it's not sure the mutation is given depending of the chromosome, thanks meiosis )

Et cetera.

I'm chemist not biologist so sorry but I don't know the accurate terms in english

And yes, using natural selection for humankind is wrong, in a lot of sides ...

---

Aside that, why are we talking about that ?
Well the TLDR version would be: Life is like that my child. Edit: The first time someone said this to me i also wanted/tried to smack his face, so wouldnīt blame you if you feel like that,xD. PS: For the record, i succeded,.
The Long version, i made and example using abstract thinking and oversimplified many of the theories of evolution and natural selection, IceBlock simply stated what is the correct form of those and explained why i heavily overdone it. Not sparing a single word in simple and sound arguments, which for a person not truly interested may look simply like walls of text, i on the other hand must say iīm glad he took the time to take me seriously,xD.

PS: On a side note, it may sound cruel to a person who believes in the humanism to use the theory of natural selection over other humans; but, with no offense intended, just like we canīt escape time, we canīt escape reality nor causality, and you have to admit that humans using that very theory on everything in the worlds but themselves, is being overly arrogant and simply nonsensical.

Last edited by NightGale; 2011-05-19 at 12:56.
NightGale is offline  
Old 2011-05-19, 15:24   Link #10488
I_am_Kami
Disabled By Request
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The 305
Age: 20
Change of debate.

So I found this pic which Im sure many wanted to see. Mikoto with wings.

So the question is if by some chance Mikoto "awakened" how would you react?

Bonus question(joke question)-If by some chance this was put in the Railgun anime if it were to happen. How would you react to fans(who don't read the books)who think she awakened?



Last edited by I_am_Kami; 2011-05-19 at 15:57.
I_am_Kami is offline  
Old 2011-05-19, 15:41   Link #10489
Sumeragi
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
Is that from Railgun?
Sumeragi is offline  
Old 2011-05-19, 15:42   Link #10490
I_am_Kami
Disabled By Request
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The 305
Age: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Is that from Railgun?
Yes its Misaka
I_am_Kami is offline  
Old 2011-05-19, 15:52   Link #10491
Zakoo
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Gensokyo
Railgun is good, but only for the change of POV, if it were to go on its on way and do things on its own, I would still like it but it will probably piss me off.

As for Mikoto awakening, i'm nothing more than a shipper, power things doesn't interest me, so I don't really care. Actually, it would angry me if she were to awaken for Kuroko instead of Kami-yan.

On a side note ...I really don't recognize the drawings of the drawers in the picture you posted but that doesn't matter.
Zakoo is offline  
Old 2011-05-19, 15:52   Link #10492
Sumeragi
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
Yes its Misaka
No, I mean is it from the Toaru Kagaku no Railgun mini-novel? Because if that isn't canon, I'm not one to bother thinking about an Angel Mikoto.
Sumeragi is offline  
Old 2011-05-19, 15:58   Link #10493
I_am_Kami
Disabled By Request
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The 305
Age: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
Railgun is good, but only for the change of POV, if it were to go on its on way and do things on its own, I would still like it but it will probably piss me off.

As for Mikoto awakening, i'm nothing more than a shipper, power things doesn't interest me, so I don't really care. Actually, it would angry me if she were to awaken for Kuroko instead of Kami-yan.

On a side note ...I really don't recognize the drawings of the drawers in the picture you posted but that doesn't matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
No, I mean is it from the Toaru Kagaku no Railgun mini-novel? Because if that isn't canon, I'm not one to bother thinking about an Angel Mikoto.
It is from the Railgun mini novel so its a different artist but still Kamachi.
I_am_Kami is offline  
Old 2011-05-19, 16:02   Link #10494
Sumeragi
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
It is from the Railgun mini novel so its a different artist but still Kamachi.
Okay, thanks.


It'll be pretty interesting to what would push Mikoto to become full-blown. I haven't been able to get my hands on the mini-novel, but assuming that it's Kuroko being in a dangerous situation, I could see a possibility. However, then why didn't she become one during World War III? Was it because she trusted Touma that much?
Sumeragi is offline  
Old 2011-05-19, 16:04   Link #10495
I_am_Kami
Disabled By Request
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The 305
Age: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sumeragi View Post
Okay, thanks.


It'll be pretty interesting to what would push Mikoto to become full-blown. I haven't been able to get my hands on the mini-novel, but assuming that it's Kuroko being in a dangerous situation, I could see a possibility. However, then why didn't she become one during World War III? Was it because she trusted Touma that much?
Flight: Mikoto can fly if she is on a large body of water such as the ocean, using her electric power to induce hydrolysis on the molecules in the air, allowing for her to fly. This ability was only showed on the SS mini-novels bundled with Toaru Majutsu no Index DVD's
I_am_Kami is offline  
Old 2011-05-19, 16:08   Link #10496
NightGale
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Personally i have a neutral opinion about it, i like Misaka, but i canīt quite justify the fandom born around her... i mean itīs a great character, but is she really that great?

...Anyway if she "awakened" in the canon history, i hope they make it believable and interesting enough to warrant at the very least two volumes of NT in development,xD.

Apart from that, the good news is that Js06, never fails to impress me time and time again: Part 2 and 3










The bad news is that i still have a wall of text pending, since honestly i donīt like to ignore people opinions when their directed at me:
Spoiler for Ice Block comment:

My second and third most favorite of the capital sins: Envy and Greed. The first is Pride, those seven in many ways are a good way to simplify the essence of humanity… actually it may be off-topic, but I donīt actually agree with their abolishment from the catholic church, in RL I mean. Simple and easy to understand examples (however extreme they may be), are good for explaining the difference between right and wrong, moderation an excess.
Back to topic, as I was saying: Envy and Greed, sounds out of place? Well not so much. When in an specific matter, two theories take extremely opposite stances, it often happens that the most widely accepted is implemented and the other is just like you said left recorded for reference. Itīs not a rare occurrence in Science that both of the previously mentioned theories, have competitors (in other words parallel theories, that while using the same though process poses significant or insignificant variations, that nevertheless makes them different), some of them seeing as they have been “one-upped” by the other researcher teams that have been just a little bit faster, never even make it to the history. Now hereīs the deal: what happens when after a considerable amount of time has passed (maybe even a year later, thatīs science for you), the first theory is revised and proven wrong against his opposite? Itīs a fact that it was recorded, but itīs quite possible that not with as much care as the one that was accepted and some information is lost in the process. Then, what happens next? Simple, since the original judgment was wrong, they would try to revise all the studies (even the one who was originally though correct and later refuted), at this point, even the parallel theories will be taken in consideration (no can do about the lost ones, iīm afraid), and it will begin an ugly struggle to prove “who” was “more right” and claim the credit for it. Iīll leave the rest to your imagination, but youīll have to agree with me that this process represents a significant lose of information, “lost to history” by the envy and greed of a few, no matter how important it may be the preservation of knowledge, human self-destructive nature at itīs fullest.
I canīt quite say youīre wrong on using Index, since the name and power of this Majin alone are a sound argument; but, what about when Index dies? I wonīt say that Neccesarius making honor to itīs name wonīt have a few “spares”(as cruel as it may sound), but itīs not something confirmed, so Index may as well be a one-generation monster. Even then, the knowledge that Index holds is akin to the totally of the “HUMAN magic research” to date; but, quite a bit of that info although proven may be incomplete (as I explained above), so itīs not impossible that Index would need to do a through sweep of those 103.000 grimoires in the future to make up for one of those lost rituals and even then she may fail...

Spoiler for shmaster comment:

However automatic a counter-system may be, itīs dependent on a database from which to take references and which process to make decisions. It may be true that this specific database is firmly etched in the HR; but, itīs uses are limited, you may argue that the HR is invincible, but it has use limits. If that wasnīt the case, Fiamma wouldnīt have proceeded with such a roundabout method to “save the world, from the enemy that must be defeated”, if it was truly perfect, it would have destroyed that enemy the moment it tried to harm the world, even if Fiamma wasnīt aware of that enemy existence. Thatīs precisely why Fiamma researched those limits, so as to bring the maximum benefit and nullify whatever backslash may be produced from a wrong handling of such power.

PS: Since i canīt truly tell how much longer we could keep this up i think it will be better to put a pause on this debate at the very least until NT vol 2, what do you say? Ice Block? shmaster? (I refer specifically to them since whether on pure science or in Toaru theory at the very least, theyīre the ones who have been the most active in the discussion i started... )
NightGale is offline  
Old 2011-05-19, 16:13   Link #10497
Sumeragi
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Dai Korai Teikoku
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
Flight: Mikoto can fly if she is on a large body of water such as the ocean, using her electric power to induce hydrolysis on the molecules in the air, allowing for her to fly. This ability was only showed on the SS mini-novels bundled with Toaru Majutsu no Index DVD's
In other words, that was just another ability she has.

Personally, I don't actually see Mikoto awakening. Her personality is a major reason in her development into a Level 5, but is it enough to push her into an Awakening? So far I can't see a desperate reason she would have for pushing herself that far, unlike Accelerator. Yes, she's cute, and probably the most normal of the Level 5s, but it's difficult to see how she would be an important part to the overarching plot (except giving Touma a reason to push himself to the limit).


And this is coming from a Mikoto fangirl, who would probably be on par with Kuroko in wanting to become one with our Goddess.
Sumeragi is offline  
Old 2011-05-19, 16:13   Link #10498
Zakoo
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Gensokyo
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
Flight: Mikoto can fly if she is on a large body of water such as the ocean, using her electric power to induce hydrolysis on the molecules in the air, allowing for her to fly. This ability was only showed on the SS mini-novels bundled with Toaru Majutsu no Index DVD's
It has nothing to do with awakening though. Flere explained it a lot of time.

Nighty, you are killing our eyes with so much lines, I want to hung myself, it's already midnight here.
Zakoo is offline  
Old 2011-05-19, 16:15   Link #10499
I_am_Kami
Disabled By Request
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The 305
Age: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
It has nothing to do with awakening though. Flere explained it a lot of time.

Nighty, you are killing our eyes with so much lines, I want to hung myself, it's already midnight here.
I know it doesn't but someone brought it up a while ago with the question if it happened later in the series.
I_am_Kami is offline  
Old 2011-05-19, 16:24   Link #10500
Ashaman
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Age: 24
I'm not sure what I would think.

It would depend on the circumstances around it.

I don't see it as impossible, but I would most definately be surprised.
__________________
Ashaman is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
action, dengeki bunko, fantasy, light novels, science fiction, shounen

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 20:44.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.